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-   -   sword storage and desiccants (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20522)

oldschldude 24th September 2015 02:56 AM

sword storage and desiccants
 
Hello Everyone,
Been coming to this site for a while. I have a question about desiccant packs while storing Moro weapons. Does people here use desiccant packs in their gun safe or cabinet storage to protect their swords? What are the desiccants effects on the wood, blade, bone, or ivory? Thank you for your inputs. Ced

Rick 24th September 2015 01:59 PM

:) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...toring+humidity :)

oldschldude 24th September 2015 02:40 PM

ThankYou Rick.

Miguel 24th September 2015 08:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschldude
Hello Everyone,
Been coming to this site for a while. I have a question about desiccant packs while storing Moro weapons. Does people here use desiccant packs in their gun safe or cabinet storage to protect their swords? What are the desiccants effects on the wood, blade, bone, or ivory? Thank you for your inputs. Ced

Hi
I am just examining my collection after being in storage for approx. 20 years. I can tell you that they have and are being stored in my loft in wooden crates I had made and lined with waterproof paper. They were all given a good coating of WD40 removed from their scabbards and separated from each other ie not touching. Some I encased in Nylon sleeves, given to me by a friend, some I wrapped in cloth and others I did not wrap in anything. Around the inside of the box I hung bags of Silica gel. I was apprehensive as to what rusting I would find when taking the lids off my crates after all that time but was relieved to find that my method had worked in most cases bearing in mind that I have stored over 200 items in the crates and only 2 or 3 were affected and this was probably due to my handling when putting them in the crates in the first place. I don't know whether I have been lucky or not but the only difference I am making to my method is using oil in place of WD40 and this is because I was informed that oil would be better for longer periods of storage. In your case if you are only storing for a few months WD40 , removing from their scabbards and not touching each other should be more than adequate.
Miguel

oldschldude 24th September 2015 11:51 PM

Thank You Miguel for your reply. Ced

oldschldude 25th September 2015 10:06 AM

Thank You for your reply Miguel!

Bob A 30th September 2015 12:34 AM

I have been using Eezox as a metal treatment for firearms and edged weapons. It is a solvent coupled with a rust inhibitor; one can clean the surface of contaminants, and allow the remaining eezox to remain on the surface. The solvent evaporates and leaves behind an imperceptible coating of rust inhibitor. For long-term storage I then treat with renaissance wax.

I have had occasion to use Obenauf's leather protector on some dried and aged leather sheaths and ornaments. It has re-moisturised them to a degree, and probably will aid in their long-term survival, but it's only been applied for a year or two (one application in most cases; a second in some) so I can't speak to any longevity issues. (It has been remarkable in use on shoe leather and saddlery/tack usage).

I have access to silica gel, but I do not use it, as total elimination of humidity seems an extreme solution for anything containing organic material - leather, wood, ivory or bone. Keeping ambient humidity levels in the 40-50% range seems adequate.

Shakethetrees 30th September 2015 04:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob A
I have been using Eezox as a metal treatment for firearms and edged weapons. It is a solvent coupled with a rust inhibitor; one can clean the surface of contaminants, and allow the remaining eezox to remain on the surface. The solvent evaporates and leaves behind an imperceptible coating of rust inhibitor. For long-term storage I then treat with renaissance wax.

I have had occasion to use Obenauf's leather protector on some dried and aged leather sheaths and ornaments. It has re-moisturised them to a degree, and probably will aid in their long-term survival, but it's only been applied for a year or two (one application in most cases; a second in some) so I can't speak to any longevity issues. (It has been remarkable in use on shoe leather and saddlery/tack usage).

I have access to silica gel, but I do not use it, as total elimination of humidity seems an extreme solution for anything containing organic material - leather, wood, ivory or bone. Keeping ambient humidity levels in the 40-50% range seems adequate.



I would be really cautious using leather protectors, since, in my experience, long term they do no good, or worse, can turn acidic and attack the leather.

I have a background in conservation and have specialized in arms and metalwork. Not having experience with either product you mention, detox or Obenauf's, I would go lightly.

However, you cannot go wrong with Renaissance Wax. It's the gold standard.

Bob A 30th September 2015 05:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakethetrees
I would be really cautious using leather protectors, since, in my experience, long term they do no good, or worse, can turn acidic and attack the leather.

I have a background in conservation and have specialized in arms and metalwork. Not having experience with either product you mention, detox or Obenauf's, I would go lightly.

However, you cannot go wrong with Renaissance Wax. It's the gold standard.


I appreciate your caveat. Do you have a suggestion regarding the preservation and/or reinvigorating of old dried leather? I have a vague recollection of some sort of de-acidifying solution that was used on leather-bound books, especially those of the 19th century, but that was decades ago, and will doubtless have been re-evaluated.

Shakethetrees 30th September 2015 02:25 PM

Leather is problematic due to its tendency to follow its original owner into oblivion.

The complex chemistry involved has confounded the museum world to the point that for the last ten or twenty years they have moved into the mindset where it's just best left alone and to rely on passive conservation. Minimal to no handling, sunlight, stable humidity, and minimized physical stress in display.

No preservatives or aggressive treatments.

Having an original scabbard that is damaged but stable is better than having one in an accelerated state of decline. Especially when this decline is due to aggressive measures.

Years ago I did the treatment route on a few pieces I owned. In one case the belt I was "preserving" literally came apart in my hands as I was working on it!

I was using a product called Lexol, created just for this purpose. But, it caused slight swelling and the old, fragile stitching broke. I was left with a pile of parts.

Kubur 30th September 2015 03:01 PM

Dear All,
I put some WD40 on a plated blade and now I have some bad marks on it. I'm really desperate. What can I do? is it permanent?
Thank you for your help!!
Kubur

Shakethetrees 30th September 2015 04:19 PM

WD-40 is great stuff to use during cleaning and as a. Penetrating oil, but never as a final step for display or storage.

I use it myself, but wipe it off and degrease with acetone or some other suitable solvent.

For long term display or storage, the only way to go is with a hot wax treatment.
I'm in New Orleans and the years ago we had a storm that caused havoc on everything. Since I months metal conservation business I got to see up close all sorts of flooded metalwork.

By far and away, hot wax treated blades held up the best, sometime with no damage. Oil washed away and gave minimal protection.

What I would do is to clean the spots from your blade and hot wax it. Without seeing it, that's about all the advice I can give.

Nathaniel 1st October 2015 04:56 AM

Great topic. I remember some very specific comments a professional conservator, Dr. Robert Faltermeier, who was kind enough to share information regarding this exact topic.

Regarding humidity he recommend iron containing metal works without organic material be kept at under 30%, but mix media (ie like most swords that contain iron, wood, and other animal product (leather, rayskin, etc) at 50% humidity. Lower that 50% might otherwise accelerate the drying, shrinking, cracking process of the organic materials.

Robert also commented he was not a fan of the famed Renaissance Wax because it contains microwax and polyethylene wax.

see listed ingredients:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Wax

Microwax has varying melting points.... potentially 40 to 80 centigrade.
http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/medi...blic/62800e.pdf

In Singapore they put Renaissance wax on a outdoor sculpture and it ended up evaporating/ melting off.

And more importantly, polyethylene wax is insoluble in any solvent. So once applied the polyethylene wax can not be properly removed. :eek:

He recommended Cosmolide microwax or commercially available Tre Wax, a microwax containing carnauba which has a higher melting point and is more reversible.

A nice thing about Tre Wax too, is you can get a 12.35 oz (365ml) can for $13 USD versus Renassance wax you can get a 6.7oz (200ml) can for about $19 USD (not including shipping)

Reference & with permission, not promotion.

http://www.faltermeier.biz/

I would also point out his published article section:

http://www.faltermeier.biz/articles.html

and in particular the article on Silver Conservation maybe of particular interest to all:

http://www.faltermeier.biz/articles/Caring%20for.pdf

Kubur 1st October 2015 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakethetrees
WD-40 is great stuff to use during cleaning and as a. Penetrating oil, but never as a final step for display or storage.

I use it myself, but wipe it off and degrease with acetone or some other suitable solvent.

For long term display or storage, the only way to go is with a hot wax treatment.
I'm in New Orleans and the years ago we had a storm that caused havoc on everything. Since I months metal conservation business I got to see up close all sorts of flooded metalwork.

By far and away, hot wax treated blades held up the best, sometime with no damage. Oil washed away and gave minimal protection.

What I would do is to clean the spots from your blade and hot wax it. Without seeing it, that's about all the advice I can give.


Thank you very much
By hot wax you mean the one like my wife puts on her legs???
Sorry but I don't want to do another mistake...

Miguel 1st October 2015 08:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaniel
Great topic. I remember some very specific comments a professional conservator, Dr. Robert Faltermeier, who was kind enough to share information regarding this exact topic.

Regarding humidity he recommend iron containing metal works without organic material be kept at under 30%, but mix media (ie like most swords that contain iron, wood, and other animal product (leather, rayskin, etc) at 50% humidity. Lower that 50% might otherwise accelerate the drying, shrinking, cracking process of the organic materials.

Robert also commented he was not a fan of the famed Renaissance Wax because it contains microwax and polyethylene wax.

see listed ingredients:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Wax

Microwax has varying melting points.... potentially 40 to 80 centigrade.
http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/medi...blic/62800e.pdf

In Singapore they put Renaissance wax on a outdoor sculpture and it ended up evaporating/ melting off.

And more importantly, polyethylene wax is insoluble in any solvent. So once applied the polyethylene wax can not be properly removed. :eek:

He recommended Cosmolide microwax or commercially available Tre Wax, a microwax containing carnauba which has a higher melting point and is more reversible.

A nice thing about Tre Wax too, is you can get a 12.35 oz (365ml) can for $13 USD versus Renassance wax you can get a 6.7oz (200ml) can for about $19 USD (not including shipping)

Reference & with permission, not promotion.

http://www.faltermeier.biz/

I would also point out his published article section:

http://www.faltermeier.biz/articles.html

and in particular the article on Silver Conservation maybe of particular interest to all:

http://www.faltermeier.biz/articles/Caring%20for.pdf

Hi Nathaniel,
Just to say thanks for your valuable info.
Regards
Miguel

Nathaniel 2nd October 2015 01:51 AM

Happy to pass on helpful information as we all seek to understand and preserve these old warriors.

Bob A 2nd October 2015 01:59 AM

Sure wish I knew about the evils of renaissance wax a year ago. I had no idea that it was not reversible; I'm surprised that this information would not have been presented by the maker, as I understand reversibility is a serious concern with curators and such folk.


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