A ghotic basinet helmet or victorian exemple ?
 

Hi at all , I Recently purcheased a collection in Germany And there was this helmet I m Really fonding hard determinate the age !
Any comment ! Input in this type etc !?

Thanks
berberdagger

This is either a very nice replica or a 1470s orso helmet.

Hi Thanks for your comment ! What You mean orso helmet ?

Ah it is 2,6 kg And Size is 22x20x21

The weight seems right for 14th c. Can you possibly get a close up pic of the inside where one of the vervelles ( the little tubes that suspend the cord/wire that keeps the leather band to which the mail mantle is sewn in place ) is attached and perhaps at the peak of the helmet where the slight medial ridging is?

Hello Thanks for your input ! Here Others pics !!

looks very french*. if the tubes hold the leather binding of the maile skirt, what are the series of peripheral holes for? what kind of inner suspension would it have had?

*- per that most accurate and factual reference: The Holy Grail, by the noted arms expert m.python....

From the "Krieg und Feuerwerk Buch 1411" (war and fireworks book from 1411).

There are multiple drawings with very similar shaped helmet types, so they might be quit alot older than i first thoughed. I think i saw them in some other manuscript as well, hope to find it.

The small holes alon the edge are most certainly the attachement holes for the mail head piece, which would have protected the forehead, the neck and the back portion. It would fall over the mail shirt and thus protect you from the head to just under the waist.
Those other tubes are new to me, i never saw anything like that. It is not my field though so i am sure a more competent person will adress that.

The small holes are where the inner lining of the helmet was stitched in place; the hollow tubes, called 'vervelles' (as A.Senefelder says above) are usually just small rings rather than tubes but the leather band which is attached to the edge of the camail is pierced with holes which fit over the vervelles and then held in place by a wire threaded through the vervelles. The unusual size of these vervelles is the only thing which worries me about the genuineness of this bascinet.
Neil

They are in fact not,but the holes through which the padded lining would have been stiched. The mail was suspended via the vervelles as described above. For reference see the pic of the rather famous bascinet in the Wallace collection although there are others

Berber would it be possible to do this from the inside?

Let me known if is ok ! Thanks

Several more examples attached from Churburg and Leeds. The example in the OP is of a lower peaked without visor ( at least I so nothing for affixing one nor evidence that it ever had it ) that would date it stylistically to the 1340's - 1360's as it would have been worn with a late great helmet. A fine example of the type can be seen in the article on Colaccio Becadelli ( died May 3rd 1341 ) from his funnery sculpture in " Arms and Armor Annual " 1973.

Becadelli effigy attached showing the great helm hanging behind on suspension chains.

The material thickness seems proper, I can't make out any signs of modern welding inside, based on the pics, I can't say it is an original mid 14th bascinet but constructionally I can see no reason to be suspicious of it, all of this of course being based on looking at some photo's. Having it in hand might shed more and possibly different light on it.

Thank you ! I think the suspension theme is the same (Abaut chainmail ) ! I find exemple here : https://www.pinterest.com/rubinelli/...bacinetti-xiv/

What type of exams I can Let made to find a correct age of this helmet ? Thanks

I m searching to do some better pics !! If can help !

Others

I have nothing to add to the outstanding discourse here, but just wanted to say thanks to everybody here for the opportunity to learn more on these helmets!
Alan, I very much admire your amazing knowledge on armour, and the detailed manner in which your posts attend to the many nuances and features which reveal the authenticity of various items.

Kronckew....LOL!! Thanks for the Monty Python jab!!! Your sense of humor is priceless, I cant stop chuckling on that one :)

Berber......nicely done and congratulations!

you are welcome. jim. my DNA is 75% german and 25% austro-hungarian. nations well known for their sense of humour as well as their food (sausages & beer are food groups aren't they?).

i too have learned from this thread. as an engineer, i like to know how things were made, assembled as well as how they were used and what they were used for.

thanks all.

Hello berberdagger,

a beautiful helmet, thank you for showing. I think your example is authentic. Here are two pictures of my favourite actor with this helmet.

Roland

But this actor have not a sallet ?

After some researching I would say, your helmet is an original bascinet, which has lost its aventail.

The actor wears a sallet or burgonet. The movie plays in the year 1560 and is very recommendable: "Aguirre, the Wrath of God".

Holes in helmet
 

If you look at the holes in the helmet under a high quality low power microscope(would recommend 10x) and determine if holds are made by punching or drilling. Punching indicates older, drilling indicates newer.

rand