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-   -   German-made 12th Century Blade in Siberia (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19331)

Edster 24th November 2014 01:32 PM

German-made 12th Century Blade in Siberia
 
Interesting article of a very well preserved 12th Century sword found in Siberia.

http://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...n-the-terrible/

Photographs shown on the web link, but I couldn't get them to copy to this post.

Article text below.

The scientists would be keen to hear from European experts who could throw more light on its origins. Picture: The Siberian Times

The medieval sword was discovered buried under a tree in Novosibirsk region, and scientists are keen to unlock its secrets. The weapon was unearthed by accident in 1975 and remains the only weapon of its kind ever found in Siberia.
An exciting new theory has now emerged that it could have belonged to Tsar Ivan the Terrible, and came from the royal armoury as a gift at the time of the conquest of Siberia. The hypothesis, twinning an infamous Russian ruler and a revered battle hero, could turn it into one of the most interesting archaeological finds in Siberian history, though for now much remains uncertain.
What Siberian experts are sure about is that the beautifully engraved weapon was originally made in central Europe, and most likely in the Rhine basin of Germany before going to the Swedish mainland, or the island of Gotland, to be adorned with an ornate silver handle and Norse ruse pattern.
The scientists would be keen to hear from European experts who could throw more light on its origins.
The medieval sword was discovered buried under a tree in Novosibirsk region, and scientists are keen to unlock its secrets.
The blade was made in the Rhine basin of Germany in late 12th or early 13th century. Pictures: The Siberian Times

'Both sides of the blade have 'rune' inscription which was abbreviated', said archaeologist Vyacheslav Molodin, the man who led the excavation - in Vengerovo district - which found the weapon. 'The style of calligraphy proves that it was made by people with knowledge of advanced epigraphic writing techniques'.
Russia's leading experts at the Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg decoded the Latin wording on the one metre long blade.
The main inscription reads: N[omine] M[atris] N[ostri] S[alva]t[ORis] Et[eRni] D[omini] S[alvatoRis] E[teRni], with an additional one on the same side of the blade saying C[hRis]t[us] Ih[esus] C[hRis]t[us]. This means:'In the name of the mother of our saviour eternal, eternal Lord and Saviour. Christ Jesus Christ.'
The inscription on the reverse side is harder to read, but the first word 'NOMENE' - clearly seen - helps reconstruct the rest as 'N[omine] O[mnipotentis]. M[ateR]. E[teRni] N[omin]e', which means 'In the name of the Almighty. The Mother of God. In the name of Eternal'.
There has been widespread debate about how the sword ended up in Russia, with assumptions it was either carried along a trade route, or taken as a spoil of war from skirmishes in the region. In one of the hypothesis, Academician Molodin has suggested the blade - currently stored in the collections of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography in Novosibirsk - could have been taken from Ivan the Terrible's armoury and brought to Siberia by the legendary warrior Ivan Koltso, ahead of the conquest of the region.
It was during Ivan's reign in the late 16th century that Russia started large scale exploration and colonisation of Siberia. Cossack leader Yermak Timofeyevich was hired to take on the Tatar forces under Khan Kuchum and Murza Karachi and lead the eastward expansion of the empire, with the sword a possible gift from the Kremlin.
The sword was uncovered at the base of a tree in the Baraba forest-steppe, less than three kilometres from where it is thought Koltso, Yermak's closest ally, died in battle. He was declared hero in February 1583, with church bells ringing out in Moscow, when it was announced he and Yermak had taken the capital of the Siberian Khanate, Kashlyk. But his new-found celebrity status did not last long, and he was killed with 40 men during an ambush 18 months later.
The medieval sword was discovered buried under a tree in Novosibirsk region, and scientists are keen to unlock its secrets.
'It was as if it just dscended from some knights' fairytale'. Pictures: The Siberian Times
Molodin puts a health warning on his new theory but says: 'Imagine the last battle of the Cossack detachment headed by Ivan Koltso. The attack was unexpected. Picture someone immediately being killed by a treacherous stab in the back, and someone else grabbing a sword to fight the advancing Tatars.
'They are unequal forces and the Cossacks are trying to break through the crowds of enemies, but the ranks of the fighters are melting rapidly. Ivan strikes not one opponent. In his hands, the glittering giant sword, a gift from the Russian Tsar.
'In desperation Ivan and a few survivors of the Cossacks literally hack their way to their waiting horses.
'Ivan's leg is already in the stirrup and he is racing on the steppe, with his horse taking him further from the bloody battle. Behind him they chase, with arrows flying. And then, suddenly, the sword falls out of the hands of the hero and drops to the ground under a young birch tree.
'I am not sure that I am right, imagining all this, but the legend is really beautiful.'
He told Science First Hand magazine: 'I must note that none of the scientists mentioned it, perhaps because they didn't take it seriously. The only person who really liked that theory was (noted) Academician (Alexei) Okladnikov. He even mentioned it in one of his last works.
'The hypnotise looks so brave and even fantastical that these days it is unlikely that I would mention it in a scientific work. But on the other hand, it does look very beautiful, plus life can often be more incredible than anything fantastical.
'Even now when I am writing this I believe that we should not exclude the version that the sword could have got to Baraba together with Yermak's squadrons. Despite his Cossacks having sabres and firearms, they were still using swords. So it was quite possible they were using them during that trip'.
The medieval sword was discovered buried under a tree in Novosibirsk region, and scientists are keen to unlock its secrets.
Vyacheslav Molodin: 'Life can often be more incredible than anything fantastical'. Picture: The Siberian Times

It was during the summer of 1975 that Molodin, then a young archaeologist, had been working on the banks of the River Om with a group of students from Omsk and Novosibirsk. Their aim was to study the settlements and cemeteries of the Bronze Age, with a focus on group burials.
At a separate site another group of students had been excavating near a large birch tree, but were under instruction from Molodin not to go near it, certain that no one was buried there. However, Alexander Lipatov, the head of the excavation team, disobeyed the brief and stumbled upon what they thought was a rusty scythe just five centimetres under the grass. As they dug further it became apparent it was a large sword.
Mr Molodin told The Siberian Times: 'The sword wasn't hidden deliberately, or 'buried'. It was lying at a depth of 3-5 cm, right under the soil near the birth tree which was close to an old road. I remember the moment we found it as if it was yesterday.
'We were not supposed to work in the area where we found the sword. It was one of my younger colleagues Alexander Lipatov who decided to 'prolong' the excavation site towards a big birch tree. I remember getting annoyed when I saw it - the area along the birch tree roots was visibly very hard to dig, while my estimates were that the burial mound was not stretching as far as the tree, so there was no point to clear up that space anyway.
'I expressed my reservations about it to Alexander, and he accepted them, but said that he was nervous about making a mistake in defining the site's borders and decided to go a bit further 'just in case'.
'If it wasn't for his 'mistake' we would have never found the sword.
'It was incredibly well-preserved, yet I was scared to raise it from the ground'. Pictures: The Siberian Times

'It was close to lunch time when I was suddenly asked to come to that plot of land near the birch tree to 'check up some piece of iron', as they said. 'Most likely it would be a scythe', I thought to myself as I walked towards the site where they found it.
'Looking back, I see how it was a pure stroke of luck. Every man in our expedition longed to take it and hold it his hands, it was an incredible piece of armament'.
Mr Molodin told Science First Hand magazine: 'Carefully and slowly we cleaned the soil off, uncovering a strip of iron, which was wider at one end, and narrower at the other. It took us an hour to clear the soil completely to see a massive sword, about a metre long with a typical iron hilt of medieval knight's swords with a clearly expressed crossbar guard and tripartite pommel.
'It was incredibly well-preserved, yet I was scared to raise it from the ground. I was scared it would fall into pieces in my hands.
'Finally I put my thin bladed knife underneath the sword and raised it... You know, I've seen swords like this in museums and in scientific books, but it was my first time ever to hold it in my hands. It was as if it just descended from some knights' fairytale.
'I slowly twisted it, noting sparkles of silver on the guard and blade. It was so well preserved that you could in fact use it in the battle almost straight away. Others took to look at the find, too.
'Finally like a water through rushing through a dam, the shock of realising what we've just found broke through and we began talking all at the same time. I can't describe the feeling of surprise and excitement.
'How did it get here, in the heart of the Western Siberia, this clearly so European looking medieval sword? How did it preserve so well? Where did it come from? '
The medieval sword was discovered buried under a tree in Novosibirsk region, and scientists are keen to unlock its secrets.
'Every man in our expedition longed to take it and hold it his hands, it was an incredible piece of armament'. Pictures: The Siberian Times

Swords such as these were not typical in Russia or across Asia, and it was more similar to those widely used by European knights. After extensive research on ancient weapons, Vyacheslav Molodin prepared a report on his findings and concluded it was from Europe and dated to the late 12th or early 13th century.
Questions as to how the sword reached Russia from Sweden have been asked since 1976, with the first theory that it was carried during trade missions.
According to Arab historians, in the middle of the 12th century there was an ancient northern path through Russia to the River Ob, called the 'Zyryanskaya road' or 'Russky tes'. Over the centuries archaeologists have found a treasure trove of coins, silver vessels and medieval jewellery in the Urals and lower reaches of the Ob, having travelled from the west.
The downside to this theory is that the steppe, where the sword was found, is separated from the lower and middle Ob by hundreds of kilometres of rugged forests and swamps. Others have argued the weapon could easily have travelled east as a result of bartering, or as a spoil of war from skirmishes between the Turkic people of the steppe and the nomadic Urgic population of the Siberian taiga.
Tags:
Siberian ScientistsVyacheslav Molodinarchaeology Siberia
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Comments (10)All commentsBest rated commentsAdd comment
What a fascinating find! I'd love to know more.
Jeremy Nichols, Coleford, Gloucestershire, UK24/11/2014 18:5300
The article does say the fellow extended the boundary of the excavation "while my estimates were that the burial mound was not stretching as far as the tree" which indicates there was a group burial, there stated focus, and presumably grave goods of other varieties. This would indicate a time and context for the sword to have been interned at this location. The dropped in conflict theory I think may tell us more about our ourselves then the swords past. One would assume there is an archeological report from the time detailing what they found in the mound and the context of its origin?
Craig Johnson, Mpls USA23/11/2014 21:2200
Has any metallurgical testing been done on this blade?
I do like the look of the sword...it is in very good condition.

I would be curious what does Dr. Kirpichnikov say about the link to Mr. The Terrible?

Ric
Ric Furrer, Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin23/11/2014 05:0410
Peter Johnson is right in dating the sword to the 10/11th centuries, and that it is far too early to have been a weapon wielded by a warrior if Ivan the Terrible's time (too much the antique!). The inscription on the blade is similar to a Finnish example, but blades and hilts could be made in different places, decorated elsewhere, put together in a third, sold in a fourth and used and lost in a fifth and sixth! Swords like these travelled across Europe and Asia over many decades.
Robert Joes, Monmouth, Wales23/11/2014 01:2230
The hilt is of a type that is associated with the eastern baltic region. Several such sword have been found in Finland and the Baltic states. The iron grip is particular for these swords. It is not unusual that these hilts are adorned with silver overlay with zoomorphic decoration in niello.

The blade likely originates in central europe: both form and inlayed letters suggest this.

As to dating, it belongs to the late viking period (late 10th or 11th century?). The sword was lost by its user several centuries before the reign of Ivan the Terrible. -If that blade could talk! We would surely listen to a tale that would be both fantastic and cruel.
-A wonderful find! I would love to learn more about it.
Peter Johnsson, Storvreta, Sweden22/11/2014 19:32204
The hilt is of a type that is associated with the eastern baltic region. Several such sword have been found in Finland and the Baltic states. The iron grip is particular for these swords. It is not unusual that these hilts are adorned with silver overlay with zoomorphic decoration in niello.
The blade likely originates in central europe: both form and inlayed letters suggest this.
-A wonderful find! I would love to learn more about it.
Peter Johnsson, Storvreta, Sweden22/11/2014 16:05100
Possibly from the Rus' culture which suffered so under the Golden Hoard in the 13th century.
Myron Bergenske, Mineral Point, Wisconsin, USA22/11/2014 03:3050
Is the sword from the Rus' culture which suffered so under the Golden Hoard?
Myron Bergenske, Mineral Point, Wisconsin, USA22/11/2014 03:1810
Those knights were looking for the Holy Grial....probably they arrived to the lands of Tocharians, whites living in Western China as the Tarim Basin Mummies have proven.

Himler and Schafer failed for some miles: the cradle of Indo-European civilisation was not in Tibet but in Western Siberia.
Enrique, Spain22/11/2014 02:4442
a nice sword, seems to be quite old and, it would be nice to hear the history of this item.
john, finland21/11/2014 22:4250
1

fernando 24th November 2014 02:51 PM

8 Attachment(s)
Interesting thread, Edster.
Let's copy it to the European forum; with some editing on the repeated paragraphs and some pictures included.



.

cornelistromp 27th November 2014 06:09 PM

The sword is of Petersen type S and/or wheeler type III. The blade gently tapering with a fuller or near-uniform width is under Geibig's Classifiaction type 2.
similar silver inscriptions with the lazy S, S leaning backward appear on a sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen cf Oakeshott records of the medieval sword XI.3 and several swords discovered by Jarno Leppäaho in Viking graves in Finland cf j.Leppaaho Spateisenzeitliche Waffen aus Finland 1964 .
The hilt and the blade with this inscription (probably north european) are from the same period can be dated around 1075-1150.

best,
jasper

theswordcollector 13th December 2014 09:01 PM

Northern European
 
Northern European forged for 100% and surely forged with the bones of fallen warriors. Amazing example.

Matchlock 17th December 2014 04:30 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Not exactly my field of expertise but I would call this a very fine and absolutely characteristic VIKING SWORD - this one really deserves being the symbol weapon and the emdodiment of our forum - instead of that ridiculous Tuareg item we've got now ...


Viking swords displayed at the Wikingermuseum in Hedeby.

Best,
Michael

Photo from Wikipedia.

fernando 19th December 2014 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... Not exactly my field of expertise but I would call this a very fine and absolutely characteristic VIKING SWORD - this one really deserves being the symbol weapon and the emdodiment of our forum - instead of that ridiculous Tuareg item we've got now ...

What a brilliant remark, Michael; can't call it diplomatic, can we ?

Matchlock 22nd December 2014 06:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
What a brilliant remark, Michael; can't call it diplomatic, can we ?

No, Nando, my dear friend,

I'm afraid we can't!:D:p

No, seriously: many people I know are shocked by that horrible "logo" of official identification of our forum; it does not add in the least to the strictly academical standard that we are trying to achieve here.:shrug:

Best,
Michl

fernando 22nd December 2014 11:56 AM

Not necessarily so
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
No, Nando, my dear friend,
I'm afraid we can't ...

Sure we can, dear Michl, as sure we should :shrug:.
There certainly are a thousand more appropriate ways to opine on the forum 'logo' before we call it ridiculous.
... Ridiculous looks the King when he walks naked without noticing :rolleyes: .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
No, seriously: many people I know are shocked by that horrible "logo" of official identification of our forum ...

I ignore the amplitude that your census embraces when you quote 'many people' but, remember, this European sub.forum is born a subsidiary of an Ethnographic main forum, and certainly there are 'many more people' who bear quite well with this logo. Perhaps for them that nice kaskara is not so horrible ... at all :confused: .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... it does not add in the least to the strictly academical standard that we are trying to achieve here.:

I wouldn't take it for granted that, the 'strictly academical' standard 'you' are trying to achieve is something 'we' all others aim for. Don't let it look like a rule that an academical degree is the demand for participating in the forum. There is a lot of place in here for people aiming to less pompous ranks; let's not scared them off :( .

Best ;)

Marcus den toom 22nd December 2014 01:23 PM

The name Vikingsword is a bit alluding when you see the home page and every page heading with a sword which is not Viking made :o :shrug:

I remember my first visit to this forum and noticed the sword. I knew it wasn't a real viking sword, but only because i had an interest with real viking swords, mainly the +Ulfbert+h.
Others visiting might get the wrong idea though...
To be honest, at first i wasn't even sure if you should read Viking sword or Viking's word seeing as the sword depicted wasn't a vikingsword.

Neither do i believe that academical standards do mean you should have an academical degree, but more likely to put forth facts and study instead of misinformation.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5Ya5c6Bw3k

fernando 22nd December 2014 02:54 PM

If you look twice at the top of the page Marcus, you will notice that www.vikingsword.com is the name of the site and, right below, Ethnographic Arms & Armour (in larger font) is the name of the forum; the same name figuring in the notifications and correspondence you receive.
Also if you click on the said 'logo', you will see that the forum is not resumed to discussion areas but also open to a wide range of subjects, including articles in the most varied type of arms.
On the other hand, it might occur to you and others that, those responsible for the forum know (and have written) more about viking swords than a lot of us together; so they know very well what and how they intend to do things. No disdain seems appropriate. Confusing a kaskara with a viking sword is something that doesn't occur even to non scholar collectors, i venture :o
But that is not the issue, for what matters.
You know the saying "We can't please Greeks and Trojans" ?
So let's not through more wood in the fire, once you made your (or others ;)) point, dear Marcus :shrug:

MFG

Lee 23rd December 2014 01:32 PM

Noted
 
Ok, ok ... I'll get a new graphic; by the way, the blade on the Tuareg sword is a nice and unequivocally old (17 - 18th century) European one.

The old board software let me have a different logo for each section, but the present software uses the same for each.

Please return now to discussion on the interesting sword found in Siberia.

Matchlock 23rd December 2014 06:08 PM

Hi Lee and Nando (in alphabetical order),


Please do not get me wrong.
By critisizing our logo I never meant to harm anybody of the great team whom we both luckily and happily call The Forum's Founding Fathers.;)
All I wished to achieve was give an impulse to think about a possible further :) step ahead.


With all my very best wishes to the two of you, and filled with gratitude for helping me along so far, especially over the past two years,
Michl/Michael

Iain 23rd December 2014 08:26 PM

There are nice old takouba out there as well going back quite a few more centuries. ;)

Back to the original subject... this is a wonderful example of the far reaching commerce of the time and nicely illustrates the value of these blades outside of Europe.

estcrh 23rd December 2014 09:16 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Ok, ok ... I'll get a new graphic; by the way, the blade on the Tuareg sword is a nice and unequivocally old (17 - 18th century) European one.

The old board software let me have a different logo for each section, but the present software uses the same for each.

Please return now to discussion on the interesting sword found in Siberia.

Lee, I had a chance to see this Viking sword at Timonium, 2013, it would be a good graphic, cant quite remember whos sword it was. :D

Here is the one being discussed rotated horizontally as well.

Lee 24th December 2014 04:42 PM

Actually, I was considering using that exact one as it is pretty unequivocally was once a Viking carried example...


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