Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18049)

Matchlock 22nd January 2014 08:28 AM

A Wrought-iron Tiller Gun, ca. 1420-30
 
2 Attachment(s)
Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...handgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.


m

Matchlock 22nd January 2014 09:02 AM

A Nuremberg Wrought-iron Haquebut Barrel, ca. 1525-30
 
2 Attachment(s)
Of round section throughout, tapering towards the muzzle and segmented into three stages by incised double lines in front of the breech and additionally highlighted by a raised rounded frieze in front of the elongated, swamped muzzle section. Large, round touch hole with deeply hollowed trough on the right rear side; the rear sight missing, the rectangular hole still present, no foresight. Next to the rear sight a barrelsmith's workshop mark of a design often found on Nuremberg barrels.
On the underside there is a barrel loop and a piercing in the straight hook, both for insertion of transversal pins to attach a full stock.
Length 99 cm (Ganzer Haken), bore 22 mm.

Hermann Historica's, 7 April 2008.

Matchlock 22nd January 2014 09:44 AM

A Wrought-iron Tiller Gun (Stangenbüchse), ca. 1450-60
 
3 Attachment(s)
Of small dimensions (Viertelhaken) and round section throughout, small touch hole with large, funnel-shaped trough on top, long straight rectangular hook forge welded to the barrel, no sights. The long, straight forge welded iron tiller terminating in a ring for handling. Rectangular recoil hook.
Overall length 77 cm, bore 14 mm.

A similar, but smaller and somewhat earlier piece, ca. 1430-40, is preserved in The City Museum of Cologne (image attached),

Hermann Historica's, Munich, 7 April 2008.

Matchlock 22nd January 2014 10:07 AM

A Heavy Netherlandish Wall Gun Barrel for a Doppelhaken, ca. 1540
 
2 Attachment(s)
The description by the auction house was complete nonsense. This was a heavy, round barrel for a wall gun, not for a rifle as the bore is smooth. The square muzzle section was characteristic of 16th c. barrels from the Netherlands, and so was the rear sight with small peep hole; the bead foresight was located on the muzzle section. At the right-hand side there was the touch hole in the center of a dovetailed rectangular pan, the swiveling cover missing. Long, rectangular, pierced recoil hook.
Length 124 cm, bore 26 mm.

Hermann Historica, Munich, 24 Oct 2011.

Matchlock 22nd January 2014 10:37 AM

A Fully Stocked Nuremberg/Bavarian Wall Gun (Doppelhaken), ca. 1490-1500
 
6 Attachment(s)
Heavy, octagonal wrought-iron barrel changing flats to an upper ridge at its forward section, deeply struck barrelsmith's mark above the breech; no sights; small right-hand side touch hole, the original pan trough removed; the barrel segmented in three stages by a roped frieze at about one third of its length, and another immediately in front of the short, swamped muzzle section with bell-mouthed muzzle. Rectangular recoil hook.
Retaining its original oak? wood full stock with slightly downcurved buttstock, attached by two iron bands, their ends intertwined at the bottom; the buttstock branded with the initials DK, its rear end a replacement.
Overall length 148 cm, bore 34 mm.

As those Late-Gothic barrels usually feature much thicker barrel walls and somewhat smaller bores (ca. 22-26 mm), I think that that barrel has been drilled out to its present bore during the late Thirty Years War, ca. 1645.

Hermann Historica, 23 April 2012, lot 33.

Matchlock 23rd January 2014 10:18 AM

Two Austrian Haquebut Wall Guns (Dopelhaken), ca. 1500, And a Barrel
 
12 Attachment(s)
These I photographed in the former collection of a friend of mine way back in the 1980's. Unfortunately, he had to deaccession them long ago.
They retained their original stocks, the one on top of light oak wood, the other probably of fir; both stocks were attached to the wrought-iron barrels by iron bands intertwined at the bottom.
Both barrels were of round section, with dovetailed right-hand side round igniting pans, the swiveling covers missing, the pivot rivets still retained. The one on top not sighted, the other with rear and foresight. The hooks were rectangular.
The end of the buttstock of the lower haquebut broken off, the remainder showing some carved foliage ornament. Please note that the forestock of both haquebuts terminate in front of the muzzle section, which can be observed in most similar cases: the muzzle section was left unstocked.
Overall length ca. 150 cm.

The detached barrel of octagonal shape throughout, ca. 1490-1500, with rear and foresight, the touch hole originally located on the first right-hand edge, but nailed up and moved to the right flat; the dovetailed pan missing. The rear sight, heart-shaped, seemed to be an alteration of the late Thirty Years War, ca. 1645-48, as that was a shape common to the mid-17th c. Interestingly, the bore of that barel had not been enlarged in the Thirty Years War.
Above the breech a deeply struck maker's mark, a shield with one cube sinister and another in the upper right half. Short, heavily swamped octagonal muzzle section bearing a blade foresight. Prepared for a full stock, with one rear barrel loop beneath the breech and another formed by a pierced hole in the rectangular hook.
Length ca. 90 cm.

Remarkably, that barrel had an almost identical double in the same collection, but in finer condition, the underside retaining its original red lead minium paint once hidden (and preserved!) by the full stock. Also, the maker's mark was identical.


Enjoy.
m

fernando 23rd January 2014 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...handgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.


m

Most amazing :eek:
I know that this example existed, but i have never seen it before.
Such one and mine are practically siamese twins.
... and you that very well, Michl ;) .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=tiller

Is it a coincidence that both have their tails cut off ? Purposely ?
... or was they born like that ... with a sort of 'tang', to fix them on a stock? :o

Matchlock 23rd January 2014 01:17 PM

That barrel of yours indeed slipped off my memory, 'Nando,


The way how similar those two items are is really amazing.

I don't know why the tillers are missing because they of course acted as stocks.


m

Marcus den toom 23rd January 2014 02:04 PM

I just love this thread, there are so many haquebuts and information i didn't find on the internet... and believe me i looked high and low for them :D

Do you also know (or can you give an estimate) about how many haquebuts have survived? They are not easily found, but if you see how many the museum in Graz has...
And how big was there impact on the battlefield (where there many of them employed)?

The English longbow was in some extend capable of penetrating through armour, so where the haquebuts less common in England? (as far as i remember, and i am no expert so correct me if i am wrong about the long bow, but they where easier to make than haquebuts but required a bit more training to use though).

Just a few questions i came up with :o

Matchlock 23rd January 2014 02:32 PM

Hi Marcus,


It's really hard to tell how many Gothic haquebuts, that is from the period before ca. 1510, actually survived; Graz mostly holds haquebuts from the 1520's to the 1580's but only very few Late-Gothic barrels that were restocked in the late 17th c. and are now parts of much younger wall guns.

I would say that no more than about 500 Gothic haquebut barrels have survived altogether, only very few of them retaining their original stocks.

Haquebuts (ganze Haken) and wall guns (Doppel- und doppelte Doppelhaken) were normally not used on battlegrounds, at least not on the side of the aggressor. Basically, they belonged to the lighter defense artillery of fortified places such as fortresses and towns where they were mostly kept loaded and primed in arsenals and on watchtowers. Thus, iron and bronze haquebut barrels alike are often excavated near old town walls, where they were fired from the loopholes - and sometimes happened to fall all the way down.

I am not competent enough to actually compare a haquebut to a longbow, I'm afraid.


Best,
Michael

Matchlock 24th January 2014 09:20 AM

A Very Rare And Early Wrought-iron Haquebut Retaining its Tiller Stock, ca. 1440-50
 
3 Attachment(s)
The hexagonal barrel with top flat, not sighted, the breech reinforced, the muzzle with large plate-shaped reinforcement, the surfaces not polished, retaining traces of red lead minium coating; small, rectangular hook at about one third of the overall length; the touch hole at the rear of the top flat. Original long and faceted, slightly downcurved, pointed oval tiller stock, possibly beechwood, put into the socket of the barrel.
Overall length 168 cm (ganzer Haken), bore 21 mm, 11.5 kg.
Exhibited in the Fortress of Coburg, Northern Bavaria, inv.-no IV.D.1.

m

Matchlock 24th January 2014 10:28 AM

An Outline of Haquebut Wall Guns Through Three Centuries
 
9 Attachment(s)
At the Fortress Coburg in Northern Bavaria, you can study heavy wall pieces from the mid-15th to the early 18th century, most of them re-using Gothic barrels.


1. For the one on top cf. previous post.

2. Cast-bronze barrel, ca. 1500-10, first decade 16th c., bearing the Gothic minuscule p mark of Sebald II Pehaim, red-copper founder (Rotgießer) in Nuremberg; five-staged barrel with three sided and two round forward sections, including a raided, short and round muzzle section with integrally cast full-length foresight, the block rear sight and right-hand side pan on the barrel base section. Stepped, rectagular hook.
Beechwood full stock and matchlock of ca. 1640-45, high time of the Thirty Years War.
Overall length 150 cm, bore 22 mm, 16 kg (Doppelhaken).

3. Overall made in ca. 1620, Early Thirty Years War, in Suhl/Thuringia, the wrought-iron, sighted barrel octagonal to round, with round, reinforced muzzle and rectangular hook serrated at the rear, trunnions; combined wheellock and snap-matchlock ignition, beechwood full stock.
This heavy piece (Doppelhaken-Bockbüchse) was mounted on a wheeled carriage (Bocklafette), as shown below.
The close-ups are from the exact firing replica made by Armin König.
Overall length 228 cm, bore 27 mm, 19 kg.

4. Wrought-iron three-staged, sighted barrel, ca. 1500-10, octagonal throughout changing flats at about the rear fourth of its length, and back at almost mid-section; short, swamped, octagonal muzzle, long rectangular hook. Beechwood full stock and flintlock with rounded banana-shaped lock plate, all ca. 1700-30.
Overall length 175.5 cm, bore 25 mm, 23 kg.


m

Matchlock 24th January 2014 11:06 AM

A Fine Wrought-iron Tiller Haquebut, ca. 1450, in the Berlin Museum
 
6 Attachment(s)
Octagonal barrel with rear socket, retaining much of its original red lead minium paint, large funnel-shaped touch hole on top ridge, short, heavily swamped muzzle section, no sights. The slightly downcurved, blackened tiller stock ca. 2nd half to late 15th c., widening towards its rear end, painted in white with an illegible sign, the Gothic miniscule h and a cross.
Barrel length 89 cm, bore 24 mm.
In the reserve collection of the Berlin Arsenal (Zeughaus) in the Deutsches Historisches Museum.

fernando 24th January 2014 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
I just love this thread, there are so many haquebuts and information i didn't find on the internet... and believe me i looked high and low for them :D

Do you also know (or can you give an estimate) about how many haquebuts have survived? They are not easily found, but if you see how many the museum in Graz has...
And how big was there impact on the battlefield (where there many of them employed)?

The English longbow was in some extend capable of penetrating through armour, so where the haquebuts less common in England? (as far as i remember, and i am no expert so correct me if i am wrong about the long bow, but they where easier to make than haquebuts but required a bit more training to use though).

Just a few questions i came up with :o

Hi Marcus,
We can read in diverse material that the longbow, appeared in England early fourteenth century, was a formidable weapon. It superceeded firearms in effectiveness and accuracy, although ir needed exhaustive training. You would need to have the practice of a veteran to be a reliable element in battle formation. In the battle of Aljubarrota (August 1385), experienced English mercenaries had a decisive role in the event. On the other hand, firearms could be used equally by the strong and the weak and with far less training.
Contemporary crossbows had an even more powerful effect but their reloading ratio has been always a handicap ... maybe less for hunting than for fighting.
I would put it that, during far more than a century, bows were more effective than firearms ... haquebuts and all.

Matchlock 24th January 2014 03:50 PM

Another Wrought-iron 15th C. Barrel
 
5 Attachment(s)
This is in the private collection of a friend of mine.

Octagonal, slightly tapering towards the muzzle, this barrel is remarkable for having an earlier touch hole nailed up and a new one, with a surrounding funnel shaped trough, pierced on what now seems to be the top flat.
Originally, this item, too, would have been fixed by two iron bands to a wooden stock. There is a high probability why there are still so many similar early barrels around. My theory is that most of them were part of multibarrel organs or devices:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht+iron+barrels

Attached please find an illustration by Konrad Kyeser, Eichstätt, Bavaria, from his work Bellifortis (The Strong One at War), 1405, depicting such a rotating multibarrel device, and two samples of the earliest shape of a rectangularly curved igniting iron:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=igniting+irons


m

Matchlock 26th February 2014 01:34 PM

10 Attachment(s)
The barrel of a heavy Tyroean tiller haquebut, ca. 1490, and preserved in poor, excavated condition with yellow spots of salt all over the surface, was just sold at a small Bavarian auction at a hammer price of 5,500 euro, which in my eyes was way too much considering the fact that unless professionally desalted and conserved, the piece will slowly continue to dissolve part for part.

The touch hole was placed on the half right side, and the eight-sided muzzle section showed the characteristic dents of the 'Maximilian' style crown's head.

m

fernando 26th February 2014 03:17 PM

Nvertheless a rather interesting piece :cool:

Matchlock 26th February 2014 04:08 PM

Right, at least for as long as it won't crumble to pieces right before your eyes ...


m

Matchlock 26th February 2014 04:26 PM

9 Attachment(s)
An interesting tiller gun with octagonal wrought-iron barrel, ca. 1460-80, sold for a hammer price of 7.200 euro in the same auction as the foregoing item.
The barrel was struck with a maker's mark on the underside (!), a segmented circle, and the rear end of the wooden haft retained an old reinforcing wire binding.
Overall length 127 cm, bore 16 mm.

m

Spiridonov 28th February 2014 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
An interesting tiller gun with octagonal wrought-iron barrel, ca. 1460-80, sold for a hammer price of 7.200 euro in the same auction as the foregoing item.
The barrel was struck with a maker's mark on the underside (!), a segmented circle, and the rear end of the wooden haft retained an old reinforcing wire binding.
Overall length 127 cm, bore 16 mm.

m

It's one of the most beautiful barrels, I have ever seen. The shape of it is typical and at the same time unusual. According to my calculation barrel length is about 318 mm and the stock length is 952 mm

Matchlock 28th February 2014 10:58 AM

4 Attachment(s)
My friend Alexender Spriridonov found this nice miniature in an illuminated German 15th century composite manuscript now preserved in the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, pal. lat. 1632.

Depicted is a a man aiming an arquebus with blackened stock, multisided brass/bronze barrel and characteristically swamped gothic muzzle section at a stag.

In Gothic manuscripts you have to keep an eye out for tiny illuminated details decorating the borders of a page with arabesques - and for people within these.


m

Matchlock 28th February 2014 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
It's one of the most beautiful barrels, I have ever seen. The shape of it is typical and at the same time unusual. According to my calculation barrel length is about 318 mm and the stock length is 952 mm



Your calculation is doubtlessly very exact, Alexender, ;) :cool:

Please accept my warmest 'thanks'!


Best,
Michael

Andi 28th February 2014 05:23 PM

Hello you both - thank you for this little jewell

Matchlock 28th February 2014 06:50 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Yes, Andi,


Precious jewels they are indeed, those tiny miniature illuminations in medieval manuscripts!

Even if we take into consideration that the monks who carried out those delicate works in the scriptorium of a monastery already employed magnifying glasses with wooden frames since at least the 14th century (!), the result is absolutely admirable!


Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 22nd January 2015 09:53 AM

Michael. Is it possible that such large touchhole due to corrosion? I'm afraid that with such a large touchhole at such small caliber will be very low compression. It seems that diameter of touchhole is about 6-7 mm (by the way is this hole canycal or not? what is the diameter of hole at top and bottom?)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...id=114756&stc=1

Marcus den toom 7th August 2015 07:53 AM

4 Attachment(s)
These are some black and white pictures of haquebuts from Belgium. Sadly i could not find any other pictures of these pieces.

The first one is situated at the "Museum vleeshuis" in Dendermonde. It is broken at the breech what would sugest that it blew up. The overall condition also shows that it was found in the ground or at least corroded for a long period of time. The muzzle section with its front sight (?) is a bit larger than the ones in the illustraion in post 27. Plus they where most likely made in Belgium allowing for a somewhat later date of 1520-30.

The second one is also from the museum Vleeshuis and has been corroded very badly. It is also looks cleaned and will most likely no longer have the patina of almost 500 years on it. The expected hook is vague if present at all. The muzzle section is somewhat less prominent and large than the foregoing sample and can be dated to 1510-20.

The third one is also from the same museum and is in much better condition, but still cleaned. The decorations and the muzzle section would sugest a date of 1530-40s. There also appears to be a iron ramrod sticking out?

The fourth is a total mystery mainly because there is only one picture. It is stated to be a four barrel gun, which would be very rare. Though different from the meyrick gun (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=barrel+mace) it still appears to have some of the same features. But without any other picture this is just a guessing game.


More samples can be found here.
http://balat.kikirpa.be/results.php...linkval=haakbus


I hope i am at least right about some of the dates, it is hard without our friend Michl. Hopefully we can make him proud by continuing his studies and use the foundation he gave us.

fernando 8th August 2015 12:37 PM

Good stuff, Marcus.
Carry on :cool: .

iskender 24th January 2016 06:02 PM

chinese cannon ming ?
 
3 Attachment(s)
gentlemen, this item was sold to me as chinese ming time. Looks not very chinese . data 10.7 cm long diameter 38 mm calibre 15 mm. greetings iskender

fernando 3rd September 2016 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
in his post #42.
Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain: ...The first one is the plainest of this group of three; it is in my collection....The socket inscribed in ink now turned yellowish:
CASTiLLO de BERNAT (the rest illegible)
BARCELONA SPAIN (again the rest illegible)
1331 . A.D. ...


The name would be BERNAT DE SARRIA, a field military and diplomatic nobleman, the baron of Polop (1266-1335). Judging by the date inscribed in the cannon, it would well be that Dom Bernat was its donor ... or was its family.


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