Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   iron cuirass (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17764)

estcrh 17th February 2015 11:38 PM

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There is one of these cuirasses for sale at auction currently, since there is some sort of silly rule about posting pictures of items that are for sale on the forum, if anyone wants information on it send me a message.

Iain 18th February 2015 09:41 AM

I should also mention the image illustrates a cavalryman of the Moundang people. One of the groups within the Mandara region of north Cameroon.

Iain 15th September 2017 07:26 AM

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Well after quite a few years I am finally in possession of one of these. I need to do a proper photo session in the coming weeks and it needs a little clean on the inside of the cuirass but I thought some might enjoy a quick picture of it enjoying its new home with an old takouba.

colin henshaw 15th September 2017 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Well after quite a few years I am finally in possession of one of these. I need to do a proper photo session in the coming weeks and it needs a little clean on the inside of the cuirass but I thought some might enjoy a quick picture of it enjoying its new home with an old takouba.


A good piece Iain, well done. In fact it would look nice with my chainmail hauberk ;)

Looking forward to more pics...

Iain 15th September 2017 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
A good piece Iain, well done. In fact it would look nice with my chainmail hauberk ;)

Looking forward to more pics...


Thanks Colin, a maille hauberk is another thing on my long term list. Not easy to find one of the good old riveted ones!

I'll hopefully have time and good enough light this weekend for an extended photo session.

Hard to date these things precisely but this example shows quite a lot of age to the iron, surprisingly large as well.

estcrh 17th September 2017 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Well after quite a few years I am finally in possession of one of these. I need to do a proper photo session in the coming weeks and it needs a little clean on the inside of the cuirass but I thought some might enjoy a quick picture of it enjoying its new home with an old takouba.
Iain, I am glad to see that I am not the only one here who invests in obscure armors!!

TVV 18th September 2017 12:49 AM

Very nice Iain, congratulations. When it comes to mail hauberks, my understanding is that they were imported to the Sahel from the Middle Eats and Europe, and it may be tricky to find a North African one unless there is some very solid provenance.

Teodor

Iain 18th September 2017 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Iain, I am glad to see that I am not the only one here who invests in obscure armors!!


Thanks Eric, this is my first venture into the armour side of things, I guess for many armour doesn't evoke the same reaction as a sword.

Iain 18th September 2017 09:50 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Very nice Iain, congratulations. When it comes to mail hauberks, my understanding is that they were imported to the Sahel from the Middle Eats and Europe, and it may be tricky to find a North African one unless there is some very solid provenance.

Teodor


Hi Teodor,

most maille in the Sahel was sourced from Egypt, other Ottoman territories, Persia or of course to some degree Europe. Bivar's Nigerian Panoply illustrates this variety nicely. So you are of course correct, by and large maille wasn't made locally and what was, at least in the case of Sudan they were making butted and not riveted maille as I recall.

Managed to take some more images, still not the best I'm afraid but the weather is playing up and not being conducive to photo sessions!

estcrh 18th September 2017 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Hi Teodor,

most maille in the Sahel was sourced from Egypt, other Ottoman territories, Persia or of course to some degree Europe. Bivar's Nigerian Panoply illustrates this variety nicely. So you are of course correct, by and large maille wasn't made locally and what was, at least in the case of Sudan they were making butted and not riveted maille as I recall.

Managed to take some more images, still not the best I'm afraid but the weather is playing up and not being conducive to photo sessions!

Thats correct from what I have read and seen. Sudanese mail was butted, Khedival Egypt imported split ring mail from England in the mid to late 1800s. I believe all riveted mail would have been imported.

Good photos anyway.

Iain 18th September 2017 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Thats correct from what I have read and seen. Sudanese mail was butted, Khedival Egypt imported split ring mail from England in the mid to late 1800s. I believe all riveted mail would have been imported.

Good photos anyway.


Thanks, I'll do some detailed images of the riveting and materials when I get a chance.

I had thought there was a sketch in a period account showing one of these. However having looked in Barth, Denham and Nachtigal I'm drawing a blank.

TVV 19th September 2017 06:17 AM

Iain,

I believe the image you are looking for was originally made by Denham, but you can find it also in Spring or in Cairns' little book "The African Knights".

Teodor

Iain 19th September 2017 07:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Iain,

I believe the image you are looking for was originally made by Denham, but you can find it also in Spring or in Cairns' little book "The African Knights".

Teodor


Hi Teodor,

Yep you are right, not sure why its not in Denham's two volumes of his travels but at least I found a copy. It provides a nice benchmark for us to assume these cuirasses were used at least in the 18th century as well if not further back.

colin henshaw 19th September 2017 10:29 AM

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From "History of Mankind" by F. Ratzel 1898.

Iain 19th September 2017 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
From "History of Mankind" by F. Ratzel 1898.


Thanks! Its a very similar sketch to the Denham one. The high neck protector I think was leather, I haven't seen an extant example with one, however mine clearly has holes where it could be attached.

estcrh 19th September 2017 01:34 PM

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A bit larger image, no text though.

Iain 19th September 2017 01:49 PM

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Its based from the Denham sketch, including all the objects pictured. Friend was kind enough to send me a quick pic. Looks like the later book simply copied and changed up the pose a bit.

estcrh 19th September 2017 01:56 PM

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From George Stone.

TVV 24th September 2017 07:29 PM

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I just saw this one as I was browsing Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika. Not much info given, other than the Fulbe attribution. According to the description, the edge is trimmed in leather and there is cloth padding on the inside. It was collected by Steinkopf prior to 1914.

Iain 25th September 2017 08:45 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
I just saw this one as I was browsing Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika. Not much info given, other than the Fulbe attribution. According to the description, the edge is trimmed in leather and there is cloth padding on the inside. It was collected by Steinkopf prior to 1914.


Thanks Teodor, there are another two at least in Germany the Bremen museum (this might be one of them?).

Photo is courtesy of Wolf.

I am not sure where the one from Stone has ended up.

With mine, the next step is going to be a deep cleaning, some exploratory work has revealed that there is in fact extensive dark rust with red rust hiding underneath. So its going to get a good going over with metal -de-corroder and then a polish.


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