Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Miquelet Pistol, decoration and maker questions (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16468)

dana_w 15th December 2012 02:36 PM

It is a little confusing to see Castilian style and Portuguese applied to that first pistol in post #30. I see the butt and butt plate distinctions you spoke about, are there any other differences that make this "Castilian style and Portuguese"?

Where did the image come from, your friends book? Do you have a closeup of the lock?

fernando 15th December 2012 04:11 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
It is a little confusing to see Castilian style and Portuguese applied to that first pistol in post #30. I see the butt and butt plate distinctions you spoke about, are there any other differences that make this "Castilian style and Portuguese"?

Where did the image come from, your friends book? Do you have a closeup of the lock?

The Castillian style only refers to the lock (fecho) type. As there were also Portuguese versions, the authors make a point in distinguish them.
I don't have any close ups; i have a mere couple books and i scan them or i picture them while i discuss things in here.
These images are taken from the book ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA/ THE PERFECT GUN, a work written in the XVIII century by two (suspectedly three) Portuguese gun smith brothers, considered a unique achievement for the period, when the revealing of such techniques was considered a secret. This book became bilingual in 1974 when Rainer Daehnhardt and Keith Neal decided to translate it to english (ISBN 0 85667 014 6). You should buy one of these for your library ;) .
Here are some close ups of patilha locks à Castelhana. Perhaps you may recognize the differences; i wouldn't :o .


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dana_w 15th December 2012 04:53 PM

I have a copy of Espingarda Perfeyta somewhere. I'll go do a little more reading. Thanks for the info.

dana_w 15th December 2012 05:18 PM

What Neal & Daehnhart call "Castilian style" in fig 16 (top two photos of your post #32) and fig 29 (third photo of your post #32) seem VERY different. I'd enjoy seeing some more precisely defined and explicit examples.

After reading both of their books, I am a big fan of Dr. Lavin's scholarship when compared to Neal. Don't get me wrong both books are great, but Lavin likes to use contemporary terms and names ("llave ala moda"), while Neal uses locations ("Madrid Lock"). Lavin seems to be the expert when it comes to Etymology.

fernando 15th December 2012 06:29 PM

I wouldn't sustain an academical discussion on this subject, as i don't have enough luggage for that. It could be a matter of interpretation, or a matter of being locks of different periods belonging in the same timeline, or a matter of only wishing to call a lock "à Castelhana" to define it as non Portuguese (for the matter); i wouldn't bet on which interpretation to adopt.
... Neither i would contradict you on which author has more authority in this area.
I know that the terminology is not entirely the same in either Country. I often see the patilha lock being called over here "patilha de invenção" (invention patilla), for one.
The fact is that Daehnhardt has in his collection locks by the thousand (thousand). In a quick (three hour) visit to his museum/residence i have seen several hundreds of them ... while my attention was locked on his vast amount of weapons. So i gather he should now a reasonable deal about locks.
Just as an aside, the curator of the Victoria Albert Museum paid him a visit to appreciate his locks colection and, at sight of the situation, decided to stay i the house for three days to fully cover the whole bunch.

dana_w 15th December 2012 07:01 PM

Added another Rainer Daehnhardt link
 
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I would LOVE to see a collection like the one you are talking about. I knew nothing about Professor Rainer Daehnhardt's collection until now. Thanks for putting me on the path! http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/RDCollection.htm

A big problem I have in studying this subject is so much contradictory information on some of the details, and how much wrong information. For example Christies called this a Miquelet lock. I guess it could be a "Madrid" type Miquelet lock, but it sure doesn't look like it from the photo. Where are the horizontal sears?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...42-details.aspx

Fernando K 15th December 2012 09:23 PM

Hola:

Creo que no hay confusion por lo sostenido por NEAL y LAVIN: uno habla de "a la moda" y el otro "a la moda de Madrid" porque esta llave fué producida, mayormente, por los arcabuceros de Madrid. Se trata de una llave (lock) con los "calzos" en el gatillo, el de media monta (half-cock) en la parte delantera, y el de disparo (full-cock) en la parte trasera.

LAVIN incluye un dibujo en página 183, y en el apendice A, en pagina 183, incluye un documento de Palacio sobre el precio a cobrar por los armeros al Rey.
En pàgina 287, del GLOSARIO, incluye una mencion: "Media llave a la moda con el juego al revés", o sea, con los "calzos" colocados de manera inversa, como sucede en el arma militar descripta por Barcelo Rubí en su Armamento Militar Español.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Fernando K 15th December 2012 09:26 PM

Hello:

I think there is confusion about what is claimed by NEAL and LAVIN: one speaks of "fashionable" and the other "fashionable Madrid" because this key was produced, mostly, by the arquebusiers of Madrid. This is a key (lock) with the "wedges" on the trigger, the mounting medium (half-cock) on the front, and the shutter (full-cock) in the rear.

LAVIN includes a drawing on page 183, and Appendix A, on page 183, includes a document Palace on the price charged for the dealers to the King.
On page 287, the glossary includes a mention: "Media key to fashion with the game backwards", ie the "chocks" placed in reverse, as in the military weapon described by Barcelo Rubi in Armament Spanish Military.

Affectionately. Fernando K

dana_w 15th December 2012 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
one speaks of "fashionable" and the other "fashionable Madrid" because this key was produced, mostly, by the arquebusiers of Madrid.


Both agree about the "llave ala moda" style being mainly from Madrid. Lavin likes to use the contemporary name. Neal named the lock for the place aka "Madrid lock" in his 1955 book (was the term used before then?). Most people have adopted Neal's term, but I like Lavin's. Lavin also translates "llave" as lock, not key. All of this is a little harder for those of us who don't speak anything but English. :shrug:

In any case Fernando K, I was just talking about the deferences between the two authors, and picked the "Madrid lock" as an example. I like both books.

Fernando and I are really talking about what makes a stock or a lock "Portuguese" in origin. That is what I am trying to understand. One example Fernando has given is the butt plate of the "egg butt" pistol, and how in wraps around the butt and up the sides of the stock for a short distance.

fernando 16th December 2012 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
.... For example Christies called this a Miquelet lock. I guess it could be a "Madrid" type Miquelet lock, but it sure doesn't look like it from the photo. Where are the horizontal sears? ...

Dana, you have enough knowledge to know this isn't at all a patilha (Miquelete) lock; even i know it.
(Commercial) people like to put appealing names on things. If you browse on antique cannons you will notice that the majority of them for sale are pretended to be Portuguese. Well, hardly one is :shrug:

fernando 16th December 2012 04:06 PM

Only a matter of language
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
.... Lavin also translates "llave" as lock, not key. All of this is a little harder for those of us who don't speak anything but English. :shrug:

No riddle here. Lavin talks about Spanish locks, which Spaniards call llaves (keys). Neal/Daehnhardt talk about Portuguese locks, which Portuguese call fechos, or fecharias (locks) ... also the term used in english.

fernando 16th December 2012 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
... talking about what makes a stock or a lock "Portuguese" in origin. That is what I am trying to understand. One example Fernando has given is the butt plate of the "egg butt" pistol, and how in wraps around the butt and up the sides of the stock for a short distance.


For example, this is Portuguese:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=trigger+guard

Fernando K 18th December 2012 02:28 PM

Hola:

Pienso que falta una historia de las llaves (Lock) mediterraneas: todas se han influido las unas a las otras: de patillas, española, catalana o de miguelete; a la romana, a la moda, mixta, Fecho de Anselmo, fecho de molinhas, agujeta, todas con sistema de disparo horizontal.

Como ejemplo, vease el fecho de Anselmo y la llave a la romana....

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Fernando K 18th December 2012 02:31 PM

Translation improvement ...
 
Hello:

I think that a history is missing on the mediterranean locks : they all have influence each other: Patilla, Spanish, Catalan or miguelete; Roman style, a la moda (fashion), mixed style, Fecho de Anselmo, "molinhas" lock , "agujeta", all with horizontal ignition systems.

As an example, look at Anselmo lock and the Roman key ....

Affectionately. Fernando K

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fernando 18th December 2012 03:40 PM

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Speaking of Anselmo, look sat this one:

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Fernando K 18th December 2012 06:56 PM

Hola:

La llave (lock) que ha subido Fernando, de Ceylan, (colonia portuguesa) no difiere en nada de la que ha tratado LAVIN en página 172, dibujo numero 19, y según el,es una variante de la "agujeta".

Mas interesante es la llave (lock) primitiva de patilla, de la Real Armeria de Madrid, de la que se ocupa en página 152, figura 15

Fernando K 18th December 2012 06:59 PM

Hello:

The lock posted by Fernando, from Ceylon, (Portuguese colony) is no different than the one dealt by LAVIN on page 172, drawing number 19, and according to him, is a variant of the "agujeta".

More interesting is the patilla primitive lock, of the Royal Armoury of Madrid, which he deals with in page 152, Figure 15

Miqueleter 19th December 2012 08:48 PM

[QUOTE=Fernando K]

Quote:
More interesting is the patilla primitive lock, of the Royal Armoury of Madrid, which he deals with in page 152, Figure 15

Hello
I believe you meant page 157 which contains this drawing (below) of the primitive patilla you mentioned. And I agree with you whole heartedly that it is most interesting. I am fascinated by Sinhalese arms with the Portuguese influence as well.



Respectfully, miqueleter

fernando 19th December 2012 10:16 PM

Miqueleter, you have a PM in your box.

Fernando K 20th December 2012 01:24 PM

Hello:

Anecdotally, I would say that the locks of the spear, I.20 listed as the Royal Armoury, were stolen between LAVIN publishing and 1990, when the last inventory, according to a communication received from the curator.

Affectionately. Fernando K

fernando 20th December 2012 03:31 PM

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An Anselmo lock ... a primitive one this time;

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fernando 20th December 2012 03:33 PM

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The drawing of a Portuguese patilha lock:

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Fernando K 20th December 2012 10:02 PM

Hola, todos

Fecho de Anselmo. figura 1 de página 451 de "Espingarda Perfeyta"- Creo que se ha perdido el gancho de seguridad (dog-lock) pùes hay 2 perforaciones en la platina, y que corresponderían al gancho de seguridad y su resorte. Adviertase que el gatillo tiene un apéndice para que actúe el gancho, incluso con un saliente. Este medio de media monta, ya se encuentra en la llave de agujeta primitiva de NEAL, descrita por LAVIN en pagina Nº 185, y que siguio fabricandose en la llave "a la morlacca" o "a la mojacca". También se usó en el "pany de transicio", descrito en "Pistols, trabucs y pedrenyales". de MARTI. SALAS y CALVO (idioma Catalan)

Llave (lock) de patilla de invencion El "calzo" de media monta (half-cock) no actúa en el extremo de la patilla, sino en la parte inferior de su curva y en consecuencia, los "calzos" están invertidos en la platina. Hay numerosos ejemplares españoles, y debido a la influencia recíproca, no se puede saber el origen.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Fernando K 20th December 2012 10:04 PM

Hello, all

Fecho Anselmo. Figure 1 on page 451 of "Espingarda Perfeyta" - I think you missed the safety hook (dog-lock) as there are two holes in the deck, and they correspond to the hook and the spring. Note that the trigger has an appendix to act hook, even with a projection. This means half mounted, and is in the key of primitive lace NEAL, LAVIN described in page No. 185, and continued to be produced in the key "to morlacca" or "the mojacca". It was also used in the "Company of transitions" in "Pistols and pedrenyales trabucs". MARTI. SALAS and CALVO (Catalan language)

Key (lock) of pin invention the "wedge" half mounts (half-cock) does not act on the end of the pin, but at the bottom of the curve and thus the "shims" are reversed in deck . There are many Spanish specimens, and due to the mutual influence can not know the origin.

dana_w 11th February 2013 10:00 PM

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I have been able to purchase a book with information on many Ripoll makers, “Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros días.” Biographical Dictionary of Artists of Catalonia, from Roman times to the present. By J. F. Rafols and published in 1951.

Can anyone please help me with a translation of the CIRERA and SERRAT gun-maker families. Fernando is probably right about the date. So the barrel maker could be Llorenc Cirera and the lock maker could be Josep Serrat.

As always any help or suggestions are much appreciated. I KNOW that I should learn Spanish.

Fernando K 12th February 2013 12:04 AM

CIRERA, Jaume: Picture fo altars.

CIRERA, Joan: stock maker of Ripoll, century XVII-XVIII. With documentation in the archive del Museo Etnográfico de Ripoll.

CIRERA,Llorenç Barrel maker of XVIII century. With documentation in the archive del ME de Ripoll

CIRERA, Lluis Stock maker of Ripoll, first quaeter of XVIII century. With documentation in 1713 inthe ME de Ripoll.

CIRERA, Salvador silversmith, XVII century. In 1611, collaborate with Salvador Sala for the coining for the city of Vich.

SERRAT: Family name on the punch of a lock of a Shotgun, number 1370 of the inventory of ME de Ripoll, and on thepistol, number 2519, inventory of collection of Junta de Museos de Barcelona.

SERRAT, Eudald: Panyetarie of Ripoll, first third of XVIII century. With documentation, 1721 fron 1739, archive del ME de Ripoll

SERRAT, Josep: Panyetarie of Ripoll, second quarter of XVIII century. With documentation in the archive of ME de Ripoll.

SERRAT, Ponç: Serraller and panyetarie of XVII century, of Ripoll. With documentation, 1673 from 1679, ME de Ripoll

Sincerely, Fernando K

dana_w 12th February 2013 12:07 AM

Thanks Fernando K! :o

corrado26 17th December 2014 01:35 PM

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I am a new member here from Germany and am reading the posts concerning miquelet pistols of Portugal with great interest. In my collec tion there is a small pistol without any marking but its style makes me think that it may have been produced in Portugal. I would be very glad if anyone here should be able to tell me if I am right or wrong. Many thanks in advance.
corrado26

dana_w 17th December 2014 09:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
... its style makes me think that it may have been produced in Portugal. I would be very glad if anyone here should be able to tell me if I am right or wrong. Many thanks in advance.
corrado26


Nothing screams Portugal to me, but fernando may be able to give you an opinion.

I certainly like the like the lock. Can you show us a photo of the front half of the barrel, the trigger plate, and the butt / butt cap?

corrado26 18th December 2014 09:23 AM

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Ok, here are the fotos of the buttplate and others.
All brass items are fixed with small brass nails. The foto with a very similar spring at the inner side of the lock I found in the book of Keith Neal, Spanish Guns and Pistols, Foto n°52.

Thanks für help.
corrado26


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