Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   A folding butt carbine (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16462)

fernando 2nd December 2012 03:03 PM

A folding butt carbine
 
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I call it a carbine, but am note sure if this is the right term.
It has a calibre of approx. 17 mm; the barrel measures 43 cms; the total length is 74 cms and 54 cms. when folded.
Said to be a XVIII century Brescia work; i would love to hear more about these guns, namely and specialy who would be the maker... or the maker's school.
Thank you for your comments :cool: .


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fernando 2nd December 2012 03:04 PM

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some more

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dana_w 2nd December 2012 04:22 PM

A folding stock Miquelet, interesting, very interesting. Obviously, a patilla (foot of the animal /rooster) style llave española (Spanish Lock), aka Miquelet. It looks like the battery has a removable / replaceable face. There don't appear to be any makers marks on the barrel or lock. Sometimes the inside of the lock is marked. The style of the butt looks like early Catalan. The half octagonal, half round barrel has both pins and barrel bands. There is a side-plate, but no trigger guard. The screw for the barrel tang looks like it enters the stock from in front on the trigger. The floral designs and that bird figure sure don't look Moorish, nor do the non-matching floral decorations on the lock bridals.

Is this yours fernando? Do you have any photos of the side-plate?

fernando 2nd December 2012 11:31 PM

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Thanks for the input, Dana
Yes it is mine; some swap i made last Friday, with some extra from my side :( :shrug:
Mind you, patilla (or patilha in portuguese) refers to the hammer toe as its shape resembles human hair sideburns.
Yes, the battery appears to have a replaceable face.
I didn't yet decide to dismount the lock foor possible interior marks.
No the the butt style is not Catalan but Brescian. The catalan butt looks more boot/foot like.
No there are not pins fixing the barrel to the stock, only bands. Maybe you are noticing some wood imperfections.
The is or was no trigger guard; both side and counter plate pictures will be posted soon.
Yes the screw that holds the tang is in the 'inverted' position, a method also used in early Portuguese examples.
I agree that the decoration doesn't look Moorish at all. On the other hand, it is known that the patilla (Miquelet) lock was brought to Italy during Spanish domination ... if i put it correctly.

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dana_w 3rd December 2012 12:26 AM

Thanks for the additional photos fernando. I am looking forward to learning more about your new prize.

I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese. What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.”

On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”?

The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later.

That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

broadaxe 3rd December 2012 07:52 AM

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I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.

fernando 3rd December 2012 06:15 PM

Let's see, Dana:

I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. That one is an essential I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese I am lucky on that one ;) . What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. This clavina was acquired in one of Keith Neal best friends On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.” No, not that. "Pie" means "foot" and "patilla" refers to the shape of the foot. Patilla (or patilha in portuguese) is a word of different origin and is not the diminutive of pata (hoof)On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”? Could be; i just showed the only one i have.The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later. Yes, that would be true ... not counting with ingenious smiths that presented advanced technologies much before general appearance. I had the previlege to see some such examples the last weekend, in a luxury collection.That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.
I took it to the workshop this morning to fix a loose screw in the folding mechanism. The smith dismounted the lock just for fun. It has no marks except for a large X. It has a rather well developed mechanism. Next week i will post pictures of it.

fernando 3rd December 2012 07:04 PM

A dual utility
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadaxe
I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.

Oh yes, Malta :cool:
I haven't yet visited that museum because low cost companies don't fly to such destination.

Thanks for posting images of something of the sort; it is always rather comforting to see a piece similar to ours.
It all starts to make sense; i was told this model is called over here a stage coach 'clavina' (a term/style that preceded the 'modern' carabina).
On the other hand, the meaning of 'Scavezzo', besides the basic attribution of the term (broken, from to break or to brake up) is the idiomatic name to connotate these guns as prohibited while insidious, with a stock hinged in two parts, to possibilitate for the butt to join the forearm, to easily conceal it.

1. agg. Scavezzato, cioè rotto, spezzato. In partic., arma s., fucile s., o, come sost., scavezzo, arma da fuoco portatile, proibita in quanto arma insidiosa, con la cassa in due pezzi incernierati in modo da poter ripiegare il calcio sul fusto per meglio nasconderla.

Well, i will assume that my fine example would have belonged in the stage coah of wealthy traveler, and not in the pocket of a poacher's cloak :eek:

Thanks again for your input, Broadaxe :)

fernando 4th December 2012 01:34 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Pictures of counter plate and trigger plate.


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dana_w 7th December 2012 11:28 PM

fernando, someone who is reading this forum, but who is not a member, thought you would enjoy seeing these Folding Flintlock Guns that were sold at auction in November.

http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot...o=45749&asta=38
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot...o=45764&asta=38
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot...o=45748&asta=38

fernando 8th December 2012 11:35 AM

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Nice ... very nice.
Let's upload the images, so that we may keep them in our archives, for permanenmt access ... a good practice in our forum.
Here is the first one:

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fernando 8th December 2012 11:36 AM

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second one:


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fernando 8th December 2012 11:42 AM

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and the third one ... most similar to mine.


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fernando 8th December 2012 12:37 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_w
...I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock.

No marks ... but i like it though.


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dana_w 8th December 2012 03:17 PM

Wow, check out the end of that spring. Neat!

fernando 8th December 2012 06:00 PM

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I sincerly hope that the engravings on mine, being visibly more pronounced, are a more elaborated craft method and an added value on these things.
Otherwise i feel a bit frustrated, as i have paid much more than the one in the auction :o .

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Fernando K 8th December 2012 09:40 PM

Hello:

The working method applied to the plates is not recorded, but the "tooled". Fernando would be interesting to tell us what material they are made (? Silver, nickel, iron?)

The weapon of the post 10, a blunderbuss travel has on his shield (escutcheon) a phrase in Italian, I fail to decipher: "chi non nona Legge P. ....."

The weapon of the post 13 has an inscription on the barrel LAZZAPINA. It was amended by adding a leg to the P to become R, LAZZARINO (Lazzarino Comionazo why?)

In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason?

dana_w 8th December 2012 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
I sincerly hope that the engravings on mine, being visibly more pronounced, are a more elaborated craft method and an added value on these things.
Otherwise i feel a bit frustrated, as i have paid much more than the one in the auction :o .

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Keep in mind that they had to add another 20% fee and VAT!

Miqueleter 9th December 2012 01:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
Hello:



In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason?


Good eye, Fernando K, I noticed that top jaw screw (setscrew?) on Fernando's scavezzo as well as the ones in Malta. I have never seen that before on the classic patillas. Interesting as well is the fact the scavezzos seem to be fitted with classic patilla locks on what is basically an Italian firearm. Brescian, IMHO. But then, until this thread, I never really paid any attention to scavezzos. I would see them listed quite often in Czerny's auctions. Perhaps Fernando will verify that the screw is indeed a setscrew.

dana_w 9th December 2012 01:35 PM

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I have seen setscrews before on early patilla Miquelet locks. This lock has the hole, but the screw is missing. My father purchased the lock from Dr. Lavin in 1997. The Rifle Shoppe sells a cast reproduction of it, Item #614 "James Lavin's 1650's Miquelet Lock".

Fernando K 9th December 2012 02:29 PM

Hello, Migueleter

The fact that an Italian gun is mounted with a key (lock) de patilla, Spanish, Catalan-miguelete or should not mislead: this key (lock) key member of the group share the same Mediterranean and horizontal trigger system: lock a Roman. agujeta. morlacca or lock the mojacca. Even locks "to the Roman" have been built in Spain, and has influenced the lock "to the three modes" Spanish

Affectionately from Argentina, Fernando K

fernando 9th December 2012 04:04 PM

Hola Fernando.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
Hello:
The working method applied to the plates is not recorded, but the "tooled". Fernando would be interesting to tell us what material they are made (? Silver, nickel, iron?)...

You mean not engraved but tooled; what would be the spanish term for tooled?
The material is iron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
The weapon of the post 10, a blunderbuss travel has on his shield (escutcheon) a phrase in Italian, I fail to decipher: "chi non nona Legge P. ....." ...

Maybe an Italian could decipher it ;) ... although the auction house is Italin and they just called it 'inscription'. I guess it is one this popular phrases, like you also find in Spanish navajas. This one sounds like a motto, like "who doesn't have law ..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
The weapon of the post 13 has an inscription on the barrel LAZZAPINA. It was amended by adding a leg to the P to become R, LAZZARINO (Lazzarino Comionazo why?)

I think the original intention was to inscribe the word LAZZARINA, to give prestige to the weapon with such famous name. This is a common habit. The Cominazo family was Brescian, where apparently this 'Scavezzo' was made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason?

Yes, the "set screw", as i have now leaerned the term in english.

Fernando K 9th December 2012 04:43 PM

Hola. tocayo

Si se me permite, voy a escribir en castellano, para que se entienda lo que quiero expresar. La técnica no es el grabado, sino el "repujado", "repousse", en francés. Se trata de desplazar el material, sin sacado de virutas....

Fernando K

In other words, the technique is not engraving but the so called "repoussé", a French term also used in english, that defines the 'displacing' of the material without shavings removal.
This technique we call in portuguese 'repuchado'.

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Miqueleter 11th December 2012 06:46 AM

Dana

I honestly never saw a setscrew in patillas I have owned, handled, or viewed in books, magazines, and on the internet. Perhaps because most images show only the outside of the lock and/or I wasn't paying attention. A quick review of Lavin and Neal revealed no such setscrew. So once again, you, Broadaxe, and fernando have brought interesting things to light. I love this forum.

Fernando K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
The fact that an Italian gun is mounted with a key (lock) de patilla, Spanish, Catalan-miguelete or should not mislead: this key (lock) key member of the group share the same Mediterranean and horizontal trigger system: lock a Roman. agujeta. morlacca or lock the mojacca. Even locks "to the Roman" have been built in Spain, and has influenced the lock "to the three modes" Spanish


Quite true. Many (most) of us know about the myriad forms and diffusion of the miquelet, however, to the uninitiated general public (and the NRA Museum), it is unknown and/or puzzling. That is why I created a Wikipedia page on the Miquelet Lock a couple of years ago (which could be better if I had decent images-they have strict image rules).

On another matter, on an earlier post I mentioned that the use of the patilla on scavezzos was "interesting". Poor choice of terms, it seems. By "interesting", not out of ignorance, but smug affirmation that often the scavezzos were fitted with patilla locks because they were considered more robust, reliable, and not fussy about flints; virtues a coach guard would want. That make sense?

dana_w 11th December 2012 03:15 PM

I could be wrong Miqueleter. I checked the hole in the top jaw of my lock, and it is not threaded. I have seen these holes before, sometimes with screws. Maybe a retaining pin was used on some early top jaw screws. Lavin references Espinar's discussion of retaining pins (Fieles / Fiel) that were used on cock and battery screws. See page 164 and 165 of The History of Spanish Firearms.

fernando 11th December 2012 04:03 PM

Maybe the purpose is different. Fieles are applied to keep a static position, whereas the screws that fix the jaw screw ought to have the ability to be screwed and unscrewed with a relative easiness. I have checked my set crew to respond to post #22 . It is in a poor condition; i will not take it off again. Its point is worn; i couldn't figure out whether it ended in an actual pin or flat shape. But it all appears that its body has a thread; at least it went out and back in with a screweing movement.

Fernando K 12th December 2012 06:04 PM

Hello:

To operate the "set screw", a channel is required in the jaw screw, which can not be noticed in the lock the post number 20. I do not know if Fernando lock has this ...

Affectionately. Fernando K

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Fernando K 12th December 2012 06:07 PM

Hola:

Para actuar, el "set screw" requiere un canal en el tornillo pèdrero (flint screw), que no se observa en la llave (lock) del post numero 20. No sé si el arma de Fernando la tiene....

Afeectuosamente. Fernando K

fernando 12th December 2012 09:18 PM

Hola Fernando,
I am not sure if it has to be always as you say. If there is a channel, you have to insert the setscrew always in the same position, which is not so viable, once the flints don't always have the same thickness, thus requiring different settings.

Fernando K 13th December 2012 12:13 AM

Hola, Fernando

No estoy de acuerdo contigo. El tornillo pedrero (flint screw) queda en la misma posición, haciendo presión sobre la mandíbula superior, cualquiera sea la medida de la piedra (flint), y en consecuencia, el agujero roscado pàra el "set screw" debería quedar enfrentado al canal (channel) del tornillo pedrero (flint screw)

Afectuosamente, y pese a las dificultades de la traducción, Fernando K


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