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-   -   help with ID medieval guillon dagger. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15850)

cornelistromp 14th July 2012 02:56 PM

help with ID medieval guillon dagger.
 
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Who can help dating this medieval dagger?
maybe someone knows a similar type sword or dagger.

length 34cm, pommel Oakeshott type G with hollow/concave surfaces 4cm/2.8cm thick, grip 8.4cm, 9.6cm cross, blade 19.6cm

thanks for the help!

cornelistromp 15th July 2012 09:14 AM

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Only I know of a sword, an excavation from belgium with the same type pommel, with hollowed faces.
see photo.

Is there none of the forum who can tell something meaningful about the dagger or it's type?

Matchlock 16th July 2012 01:57 PM

Hi Jasper,

My experienced friend says that the form of the quillons, with their pronouncedly swamped terminals - and obviously terminating in an additional tiny bulbous finial - is a characteristic feature dating that dagger into the late 15th to early 16th c. when rondel pommels were still in use.
The length of only 34 cm indicates that it may have been either a lady's dagger or stored under garments like a cloak.

Best,
m

cornelistromp 16th July 2012 08:44 PM

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Hi Michael,

thank you and your friend.
it is difficult to date a dagger because there are few differences in style over the centuries and of course very few surviving examples.

a brief comment about the length, most medieval quillon-daggers (daggers with pommel and cross cf GF Laking) have a length between 28-35cm! this is nothing unusual. (see Waffensammlung des bernischen Historischen Museum in Bern,Wegeli)
Guillon daggers longer than 38cm are extremely rare.
fe there are 3 long guillondaggers found in the Castillon hoard, however this is regarded by some as short swords because of their great length.

Oakeshott has made a brief comment about this type of pommel with concave faces in tsitaoc P95, pommel type G
'some examples, mostly dating after 1400, have concave faces"
further, I found 3 swords, maybe daggers or maybe swords for children?, with a similar short ricasso;
musée de lármee jpo1189, RA ROMs P227 # 19, p238 glasgow museum ROMs.

1350-1450 sounds plausible.


best,

BerberDagger 20th July 2012 11:37 PM

I ve never seen an identical one but regarding the guard I see a very similar in a south italian 15th century excavated dagger , olso the blade shape is similar....

cornelistromp 21st July 2012 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerberDagger
I ve never seen an identical one but regarding the guard I see a very similar in a south italian 15th century excavated dagger , olso the blade shape is similar....


Hello my friend,

thanks, do you maybe have a picture of the dagger?

regards,
Jasper

Matchlock 22nd July 2012 09:29 PM

[QUOTE

1350-1450 sounds plausible.

[/QUOTE]

Hi Jasper,

This of course would be the common dating for egdged weapons with characteristic flat and down-curved Gothic quillons.
I am curious though to see a sample of such an early date with late-style quillons like yours - please do keep in mind to always watch out for the latest possible stylistic feature on any item when dating it! ;)
One of the most common mistakes is to date an item on the grounds of its earliest features ...

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp 23rd July 2012 07:20 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Jasper,

This of course would be the common dating for egdged weapons with characteristic flat and down-curved Gothic quillons.
I am curious though to see a sample of such an early date with late-style quillons like yours - please do keep in mind to always watch out for the latest possible stylistic feature on any item when dating it! ;)
One of the most common mistakes is to date an item on the grounds of its earliest features ...

Best,
Michael

Hi michael,

thank you, I would greatly appreciate it if you can substantiate "late style guillons" with some evidence.

where did this fact-knowledge come from, gut feeling, or do you have a hard reference from the literature or even better an example of a weapon?

there are 12 different quillon/cross types possible at a gothic dagger, not only " flat and downcurved!"

Moreover, the cross/quillon of the dagger under discussion is described precisely by Oakeshott as his cross style 2, see picture.SITAOC p 114.
there are numerous examples of swords with this cross style type 2 published in ROMS dating from the 11th 12th 13th 14th and 15th century.
however examples of cross style 2 from the 16 th century are not known to me, but then again maybe you have other information?


dating a rare dagger with no explicit style attributes is particularly difficult. example, see the reactions on another forum. vikingsword staff ,sorry for the link
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26388

further I got an interesting picture with a late 14, early 15 century dagger with some similarities in blade geometry and quillon form.

the pommel popular after 1400 in combination with the cross-type 2 and more important a blade with short ricasso! make me date the dagger in the 1350-1450 time span.

best,
Jasper


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