Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Tulwar with pronounced Yelman. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15756)

Norman McCormick 30th June 2012 07:53 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Jens,
To get back on track here are a few photos of the scarf weld on the blade. There is approx 3 inches separating the V welds on either side of the blade and at the sharp edge there is a very thin crack probably only becoming noticeable to the smith when the blade was sharpened The photos are of one side of the blade only. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jens Nordlunde 30th June 2012 10:03 PM

Thanks Norman,
Whatever you call the blade, it is a nice old one:).
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 3rd July 2012 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Jim,
Many thanks, once again, for your insight and your time. It was a mucky old warrior when I got it and I'm delighted that apart from the basic historical and form interest it may be earlier than I had hoped. I do think the blade has more to reveal about its construction and make up. I did notice that after cleaning the blade was very quick to oxidize taking on a darker shade when left overnight. This obviously has to be a product of the metallurgy of the blade itself which must contain a reactive element. I have attached photos of the pommels of the other two Tulwars for comparison and completeness, the colour should point to which belongs to which. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.



Salaams Norman McCormick ~ Nice Swords indeed. I noticed that the right hand picture shows a sun burst design based on the geometric figure 33. That would indicate Islamic origins. Moghul...?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde 3rd July 2012 05:17 PM

Some of the Hindu clans, like the Chauhans, Paramara, Gosh, and Solankis are Agnivanshis, or ’fire born’, descendants from the sun, while other clans are said to be descendants from the moon.

This goes back for a very long time, long before the Muslims and the Moghuls.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 3rd July 2012 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Some of the Hindu clans, like the Chauhans, Paramara, Gosh, and Solankis are Agnivanshis, or ’fire born’, descendants from the sun, while other clans are said to be descendants from the moon.

This goes back for a very long time, long before the Muslims and the Moghuls.


Yes 4,000 years isnt it?... I think the longest ever running dynasty if you discount the British period.. My point was the 33 points of the sunburst ~ did they use that configuration?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde 3rd July 2012 06:22 PM

I honestly don't know, as my researches never too me in that direction.
Please tell us about the 33 points of the sunburst, as I am sure it is unknown to many - thanks for mentioning it.
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 3rd July 2012 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
I honestly don't know, as my researches never too me in that direction.
Please tell us about the 33 points of the sunburst, as I am sure it is unknown to many - thanks for mentioning it.
Jens


Salaams Jens, It always is a pleasure to see you on forum and your posts always grab my attention ~ Yaa Ustad !!

The 33 / 99 configuration seen in the bead structure of Islamic religious beads measures the number of words for God. There is a short manageable 33 version and a full 99 long version with it is said... a 100th word which is secret. The 33 and 99 are easily interpreted into geometrical artwork and often seen on Islamic trays and pots etc etc as well as in architecture and in calligraphy and weapons... in this case the 33 sunbursts of what I assume is an Islamic Sword of the Moghul period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde 3rd July 2012 08:30 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim for you answer. People should learn something new every day they live, and I did to day.

Your explanation seems to be a valid one, on that should be looked more into.

The more I have read about Indian art, architecture, weapons, geography, mining and what do I know, the less I seem to know – as the more you know, the more unanswered questions seem to pop up.

My wish is, that more collectors would realise this.

Btw what does Yaa Ustad mean?


Jens

Norman McCormick 3rd July 2012 08:41 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Ibrahiim,
Interesting stuff, here are full length versions of the other Tulwars.
My Regards,
Norman.


Hi Jens,
I think Ibrahiims salutation might translate as something like 'Expert'.
Again interesting stuff.
My Regards,
Norman.

spiral 4th July 2012 09:06 AM

great sword Norman!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The more I have read about Indian art, architecture, weapons, geography, mining and what do I know, the less I seem to know – as the more you know, the more unanswered questions seem to pop up.

My wish is, that more collectors would realise this.


Amen...

Takes a long time to realise that with much study & research, combined I think Jens. Its a solid place to sit I think.

Some collectors more or less just collect. :shrug:

Also sometimes beware of the expert collector who knows answear to evry questian! :eek:

spiral

A.alnakkas 4th July 2012 01:30 PM

Ibrahim, the info about the use of the 33/99 (commonly used in prayer beads) in moghul items seems interesting. Soon I might have a wootz tulwar with such dome design will share photos once its here.

Though 100th 'secret' name is untrue, no such a thing exist ;-) Qur'an suggests that there are other names than what is mentioned in the Qur'an but it could be 100, or 101 or 1000000 if you know what I mean.

(maybe something like that developed as folklore amongst south east asian muslims but that hardly counts as Islamic)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 4th July 2012 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Ibrahim, the info about the use of the 33/99 (commonly used in prayer beads) in moghul items seems interesting. Soon I might have a wootz tulwar with such dome design will share photos once its here.

Though 100th 'secret' name is untrue, no such a thing exist ;-) Qur'an suggests that there are other names than what is mentioned in the Qur'an but it could be 100, or 101 or 1000000 if you know what I mean.

(maybe something like that developed as folklore amongst south east asian muslims but that hardly counts as Islamic)



Salaams A.alnakkas Quite right in terms of the folk lore angle I agree but it is a story that exists of the name belonging to a camel (said to be Gods greatest gift) that is a secret... no one knows it... but "it is said that" the camel is descended from a djinn~ I would expect to see a lot more Talismanic inscriptions unwind as the continuing episode on Islamic swords unfolds. Anyway ~ the main part of the story is about the geometric relationship of the numbers 33 and 99 which is only a small part of the geometric pattern conundrum but important in this case as it could never appear on a sword of non Islamic linkage... In this case it must be Mughul.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 4th July 2012 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Thank you Ibrahiim for you answer. People should learn something new every day they live, and I did to day.

Your explanation seems to be a valid one, on that should be looked more into.

The more I have read about Indian art, architecture, weapons, geography, mining and what do I know, the less I seem to know – as the more you know, the more unanswered questions seem to pop up.

My wish is, that more collectors would realise this.

Btw what does Yaa Ustad mean?


Jens



Salaams ALL ~ Yaa Ustad is a commonly used term of respect meaning ~ Oh Master .
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 5th July 2012 04:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Thank you Ibrahiim for you answer. People should learn something new every day they live, and I did to day.

Your explanation seems to be a valid one, on that should be looked more into.

The more I have read about Indian art, architecture, weapons, geography, mining and what do I know, the less I seem to know – as the more you know, the more unanswered questions seem to pop up.

My wish is, that more collectors would realise this.

Btw what does Yaa Ustad mean?


Jens



Salaams Jens Nordlunde ~It may, however, not be associated only in Islamic rituals since my research on Hindu numbers indicates it too has a certain affection with the number 33 ~

330 million gods

"It is said that" Hindus believe there are 330 million deities. In the Vedas, Thirty-three gods are listed. This is followed by the Sanskrit word koti, which is used for "class" but can also be used for a number equal to 10 million. According to one view, some scholars misinterpreted the word koti - which is meant to mean "class", claiming that there are 330 million gods within Hinduism. Another view contends that 330 million is a figure symbolizing infinity, indicating infinite forms of God.

So today I learn something !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Norman McCormick 5th July 2012 04:31 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Thank-you for your continued interest, it is gratifying that we are all learning post by post. It is appreciated.
My Regards,
Norman

eric45 10th July 2012 03:54 AM

Nice sword.


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