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-   -   interesting jambiya on eBay (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15610)

Lew 24th May 2012 09:09 AM

interesting jambiya on eBay
 
3 Attachment(s)
Just finished on eBay but I forgot to bid :( . Looks like the hilt is wood the whole packacge seems a mix of Yemen and or Omani ?

A.alnakkas 24th May 2012 11:19 AM

Hey Lew,

I got this one. Fittings seem to be of average quality but really like the blade. More of it will come once I recieve it.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 24th May 2012 03:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Just finished on eBay but I forgot to bid :( . Looks like the hilt is wood the whole packacge seems a mix of Yemen and or Omani ?



Salaams Lew, Interesting potential mixture with what looks like a 7 ringer Omani to me ~ with an odd blade ~ that could be Indian. I think the blade has some quality to it. The scabbard and dagger are, it seeems, matched going by the silverwork. It could be a Royal Khanjar (sa'idiyyah khanjar) but with much of the usual silver adornment gone from the hilt. See my thread "The Omani Khanjar" to compare the hilt of a Royal Khanjar . The belt is a simple jebali or bedu work belt. The Khanjar could be a Salalah job or at least used there for a few decades...
The dotted blade could be wootz and perhaps worth polishing. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas 10th June 2012 04:36 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Recieved it today, here are some photos. Tomorrow I will get proper photos of the hilt and the blade ;-)

The blade is really nice and thick, probably the thickest blade I have seen on an Arabian khanjar or jambiya. Lovely patina on the silver which I wont clean.

Atlantia 10th June 2012 04:43 PM

Very nice Lotfy.
So now it's in hand can you confirm the hilt material?

A.alnakkas 10th June 2012 05:54 PM

Thanks Gene, I can only be sure with a hot needle test. The seller said its wood but it have alot of similarities with horn items and has some weight to it. The back side shows some fiberous octagonal shapes that I couldnt photograph properly without sunlight.

I'll clean the blade too but might not be worth it. Lovely patina on it and no rust.

kahnjar1 11th June 2012 04:57 AM

Nice piece Lofty. :) The handle has the bottom silver missing but I'm sure that you should be able to do something about that. The arrangement of the rings looks original as the silver wire linking them does not appear loose. My guess is definately not Omani as there is no typical scroll decoration. I would guess at either Saudi or Yemeni but from the proximity of the Omani border.
As far as the blade is concerned, if there is not rust, just a light rub with an oiled cloth so as not to remove the patina.
Stu

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 08:57 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Thanks Stu, Yep, I can do something about the missing silver. I may take photos and have my Saudi friend take it to a Jambiya maker there maybe.

Took more time in examining the blade, there is some red rust that I should clean off soon. Tiny lines at obscure places.

Included are photos of the blade and hilt, dare I say that there is a chance this would be rhino?

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 09:03 AM

3 Attachment(s)
More photos

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 10:41 AM

1 Attachment(s)
As adviced by Gav

spiral 11th June 2012 12:52 PM

100% rhino.....

Spiral

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
100% rhino.....

Spiral


Thanks, fits the blade really well ;-)

Atlantia 11th June 2012 01:13 PM

Good buy Lotfy. Looks like Rhino horn to me as well.
Worth getting that minor piece of silver replaced now for sure :)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th June 2012 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Nice piece Lofty. :) The handle has the bottom silver missing but I'm sure that you should be able to do something about that. The arrangement of the rings looks original as the silver wire linking them does not appear loose. My guess is definately not Omani as there is no typical scroll decoration. I would guess at either Saudi or Yemeni but from the proximity of the Omani border.
As far as the blade is concerned, if there is not rust, just a light rub with an oiled cloth so as not to remove the patina.
Stu



Salaams kahnjar1 and A.alnakkas ~ This is one of the most odd looking khanjars I have ever seen. The blade is from where? possibly Syrian? It could be a Bedouin Omani dagger (It certainly looks Omani ~ Not all Omani daggers have scroll work.) I therefor point to beni Rashid or Murrah Bedouin/ Jebali grouping. The Murra movement box touches Oman and reaches as far as Syria. The silver on the top of the hilt comprising a decorated button with 3 floral pointers or leaves would be repeated in the base of the hilt, facing the opposite direction, The supporting pins are there but it is missing.
Note the peculiar wire ring in amongst the body of rings ~ Is this a replacement for the eighth ring? In which case is this, perhaps, a Muscat 8 ringer? If so the hilt has been modified and rounded...perhaps.

It is old ... and I am surprised that it is Rhino but the hot pin test would prove it. There does not seem to be any translucency therefor I point to wood but if it is Rhino it is a bonus.

One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.

I believe this Khanjar is originally Omani (either a royal khanjar or a Muscat Khanjar) adopted by a bedouin owner therefor with a lot of plus and minus about it over the years... not least the blade. This Khanjar could have surfaced in Salalah :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes For an account of the Murrah see; Nomads of the Nomads: The Al Murrah Bedouin of the Empty Quarter [Paperback]
Donald P. Cole.

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 02:12 PM

Thanks Ibrahim.

Rhino is not necessarily translucent.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th June 2012 02:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Thanks Ibrahim.

Rhino is not necessarily translucent.


Neither is wood...but I hope it is Rhino.

spiral 11th June 2012 02:37 PM

It is..... ;)

Actualy Ibrahiim your hot pin method would only show it is horn not timber.

{Assuming the "pin" is a needle with enough residual heat to actualy burn the horn or timber enough to not only leave a permanent scar but but also to raise the fumes.}

Scientificaly one generaly uses ones eyes to percieve the structure of both horn & timber under magnification to identify them.

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th June 2012 02:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
It is..... ;)

Actualy Ibrahiim your hot pin method would only show it is horn not timber.

{Assuming the "pin" is a needle with enough residual heat to actualy burn the horn or timber enough to not only leave a permanent scar but but also to raise the fumes.}

Scientificaly one generaly uses ones eyes to percieve the structure of both horn & timber under magnification to identify them.

spiral


Salaams spiral ~ Yes I agree however there is another sense which one can employ...that of the sense of smell and as you probably know Rhino gives off a burnt hair aroma... wood smells like burning wood. One of the other tests using ones scientifically perceived eyes :D is the light test with a bright light to view the translucent effect particularly in aged Rhino which is usually dramatic in the peripherary of the test item.
I still hope we are looking at an old Rhino example. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

spiral 11th June 2012 03:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams spiral ~ Yes I agree however there is another sense which one can employ...that of the sense of smell and as you probably know Rhino gives off a burnt hair aroma... wood smells like burning wood. One of the other tests using ones scientifically perceived eyes :D is the light test with a bright light to view the translucent effect particularly in aged Rhino which is usually dramatic in the peripherary of the test item.
I still hope we are looking at an old Rhino example. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Bonjure Ibrahim!

Yes I agree that with a sharp edge & very bright light even inner core of rhino with heavy melanin & calcium deposits can have a 1mm of translucency. This is harder on very rounded surfaces of course.

Also this is not a black core but does have years of dirt without the care of oiling, which also promotes the translucency, hence it being more common with age. ;)

One of my points was, identyfying horn by burning as well as bieng destructive doesnt rule out other horn types, they all smell of burning hair. ;)

Beneath the years of dirt no oiling it may be translucent & indeed if set on fire.

But the clear formation structure of this jambiya grip, is rhino horn, I grew up in a family working at importing timber world wide, we had boxes of recognition keys for identyfying timber end grain under magnification. I recognise that this is no timber ;) & the only horn with fiberous orange peel effect on the cross cut end grain is rhino! :eek:

Simple realy...

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th June 2012 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
Bonjure Ibrahim!

Yes I agree that with a sharp edge & very bright light even inner core of rhino with heavy melanin & calcium deposits can have a 1mm of translucency. This is harder on very rounded surfaces of course.

Also this is not a black core but does have years of dirt without the care of oiling, which also promotes the translucency, hence it being more common with age. ;)

One of my points was, identyfying horn by burning as well as bieng destructive doesnt rule out other horn types, they all smell of burning hair. ;)

Beneath the years of dirt no oiling it may be translucent & indeed if set on fire.

But the clear formation structure of this jambiya grip, is rhino horn, I grew up in a family working at importing timber world wide, we had boxes of recognition keys for identyfying timber end grain under magnification. I recognise that this is no timber ;) & the only horn with fiberous orange peel effect on the cross cut end grain is rhino! :eek:

Simple realy...

spiral


Salaams spiral ... I knew that :D and joking apart... I would like to see the basic tests done to determine the material. It would be quite rare to have a Royal Khanjar hilt in Rhino simply because the entire thing is usually covered in decorative filigree silver. On the other hand it tends to swerve the debate toward the Muscat 8 Ringer ~ What it is exactly; I have to say I don't know.
However I think, now, looking at it with magnification you are right ! Rhino. That marks it up about 1000% for quality.
The exact provenance is still a puzzle.... :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams spiral ... I knew that :D and joking apart... I would like to see the basic tests done to determine the material. It would be quite rare to have a Royal Khanjar hilt in Rhino simply because the entire thing is usually covered in decorative filigree silver. On the other hand it tends to swerve the debate toward the Muscat 8 Ringer ~ What it is exactly; I have to say I don't know.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Not as rare as you think. came across 3 here in Kuwait. Ordered one for a friend from Australia. There are some, but as you said the number of silver makes it hard to notice.

EDIT: And damn do they sell fast. Mainly Saudi's buy them.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th June 2012 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Not as rare as you think. came across 3 here in Kuwait. Ordered one for a friend from Australia. There are some, but as you said the number of silver makes it hard to notice.

EDIT: And damn do they sell fast. Mainly Saudi's buy them.



Salaams A.alnakkas~ Interesting as that gives a pointer to the Murrah. It would explain the bedu style basic workbelt and the peculiar blade which may be Syrian. If it is Rhino ( and I believe it is ) you have a rare one.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas 11th June 2012 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas~ Interesting as that gives a pointer to the Murrah. It would explain the bedu style basic workbelt and the peculiar blade which may be Syrian. If it is Rhino ( and I believe it is ) you have a rare one.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Hmm am not sure about the connection. Most of the Omani Rhino khanjars actually come from Oman to Kuwait recently by some antique dealers or as gifts..

I need to hit the tribes history book and see the movement of Murrah. Btw, do you mean a specific branch, maybe one related to the Murrah's of Qatar?

spiral 11th June 2012 04:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
However I think, now, looking at it with magnification you are right ! Rhino. That marks it up about 1000% for quality.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


& value! ;)

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it... :)

Spiral

kahnjar1 11th June 2012 09:41 PM

FROM IBRAHIIM'S POST ABOVE
One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.


Your point is noted Ibrahiim......As has been stated previously here, the "borders" spoken of are MODERN DAY lines in the sand. I think we are well aware that these modern day countries did not come into being until relatively recent times. I am simply trying to place the POSSIBLE origin of this piece. This is after all a DISCUSSION Forum.

Lew 12th June 2012 01:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
As adviced by Gav



Rhino for sure outer layer has that orange peel look.

Congrats :)

Lew

Ibrahiim

The lack of translucency does not mean its not rhino. It depends on how the piece was cut. I have an old Yemeni jambiya and the horn is dark brown the real test is get a high power flashlight and put up against the hilt it should give off a nice glow. The other way to tell is with a magnifier glass look down at the end of the hilt if you see tight fibrous bundles similar to looking down at a handful of thin spaghetti than it's rhino ;).

Lew

spiral 12th June 2012 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
The lack of translucency does not mean its not rhino. It depends on how the piece was cut.
Lew


I personaly have found the degree of translucency depends on the darker deposits, { The melanin and calcium content} within the horn Lew ,not the direction of its cut, whichever direction the horn is cut, any translucentcy still remains.

Generaly the lighter the horn colour the greater the translucency.

Dryness, Dirt & lack of oiling also reduce any any apparent translucency.

As an aside, I find it interesting how the different colours of rhino horn are sought after in different parts of the world.

Personaly I rather {like the Bukarans & Nepalese Royalty} prefer the toughest, heaveyist, hardest, strongest & indeed least translucent of then all.

The rarer central inner black core. {The very dark green is also rather nice to but have only ever seen one speciemien.}

The commoner potentialy more jouvenile golds, yellows, oranges, lighter browns etc are very pretty with that lovely glow are much prefered by the Yemmenis, Turks etc.

I understand the Chinese "medicine men" also place vastly different values on the origin, type & colour of horn as well.

Its a Very in depth subject I think, I wish I knew more. :shrug:

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 12th June 2012 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Hmm am not sure about the connection. Most of the Omani Rhino khanjars actually come from Oman to Kuwait recently by some antique dealers or as gifts..

I need to hit the tribes history book and see the movement of Murrah. Btw, do you mean a specific branch, maybe one related to the Murrah's of Qatar?



Salaams A.alnakkas ~ Ah the dreaded recent dealer network ... in which case I suspect it has come from Yemen or Salalah. (possibly Muscat) The romantic idea of it arriving by Murrah fades with that... The blade still puzzles me. It could be an 8 ringer modified Muscat Khanjar or a Royal Khanjar that has very much lost its silver hilt decoration. The amazing disclosure that this has a Rhino hilt completely transforms the dagger. You may be in a good position to drop in and view the Tareq Rajeb Museum in Kuwait.. they may help on Murrah etc. Their weapons collection is very nice.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 12th June 2012 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Rhino for sure outer layer has that orange peel look.

Congrats :)

Lew

Ibrahiim

The lack of translucency does not mean its not rhino. It depends on how the piece was cut. I have an old Yemeni jambiya and the horn is dark brown the real test is get a high power flashlight and put up against the hilt it should give off a nice glow. The other way to tell is with a magnifier glass look down at the end of the hilt if you see tight fibrous bundles similar to looking down at a handful of thin spaghetti than it's rhino ;).

Lew


Salaams Lew ~ The spaghetti end of the hilt is an excellent description. I agree with the glowlight approach with a high powered pen torch it often lights up the edges. In this case there is a lot of oil and grime locked in the material so not sure if it will penetrate...but worth a go.
To confuse the issue in Oman Rhino horn is called Z'raff and there is "apparently" a Giraffe hoof horn used for daggers in neighbouring countries.
Your initial response that the item is a mixed Oman/Yemen job is probably right. It looks like a recently traded in article and procured in the Kuwait market. I point to Salalah/Yemen as its area of use in one of the Jebali tribes that straddle the border but Muscat as its point of manufacture either a Muscat 8 Ringer or Royal Khanjar with a distinctly "foreign blade" (three dot) replacement. Quite a detective story. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 12th June 2012 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
& value! ;)

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it... :)

Spiral



Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
Your expertise with the wood tagging is indeed a rare talent.. Although there are some odd woods here like Meez, Karot and an almost iron hard heavyweight thing from the Jebel Akhdar called Atom none of which were exported except the latter, apparently, as the favoured woodwork on some K98K Vermacht rifles in the early part of WW2. It is teak white in colour but stains black almost like ebony and carves well. All three are favoured these days as camel stick wood.
Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !! :shrug:

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


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