Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   Ethnographic Weapons (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   translation please Cojang/Rudus Atjeh (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12136)

asomotif 28th June 2010 01:14 AM

translation please Cojang/Rudus Atjeh
 
2 Attachment(s)
I know I am hardly original at the moment offering an atjeh piece for translation...
This one is hardly as impressive as Maurice's Ladieng, or Erik's Sikin. :o ;)

But this Rudus / Cojang appears to have some inscription on the handle.
Is it readable to anyone ?

Ps. these are the pictures from the seller. Piece is on its way now :)

Thanks for any input.

Zifir 30th June 2010 10:11 AM

Hi,
Sene 1278 = 1861/62 A.D.
First part is also very eligible but we need someone who knows the language of the region. :shrug:

Maurice 30th June 2010 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
I know I am hardly original at the moment offering an atjeh piece for translation...

Hi Willem,

If the date Zifir's translation is true, you have at least a very old one.
Even from before the beginning of the Atjeh war....;)

I don't think Erik or I can say that for sure for our pieces......:rolleyes:

asomotif 30th June 2010 03:38 PM

Thanks Zifir !

Than this is indeed an old one.

I believe there are some initials added by the dutch owner "HVA" on the far left of the inscription.
So I guess it is only the date, but indeed an interesting one putting it at the beginnig of the Atjeh war.

Thanks !

erikscollectables 30th June 2010 04:56 PM

Great to have an item with a date!
Dating is next to impossible with Norht Sumatran pieces but I think quite a few items are earlier than we think.

Almost all fighting weapons are from before 1900/1910 (they were banned for regular wear so production ceased!) and most straightforward/simple weapons probably from around 1870/75 - made for the big wars with the Dutch. So if you have a good quality weapon with nice old patina there is a good chance it is from before 1875...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Hi Willem,

If the date Zifir's translation is true, you have at least a very old one.
Even from before the beginning of the Atjeh war....;)

I don't think Erik or I can say that for sure for our pieces......:rolleyes:

asomotif 18th August 2010 10:53 PM

Hulu Cangge Gliwang / AGE ?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Digging up this thread again.

At this moment I have 3 cojangs/rudus with hulu cangge gliwang
One of them has been dated thanks to Zifir.

I have the feeling that the simple hulu cannge gliwang on the left/bottom of the following pictures is even older.
No rational reasons, just because it is more simple, different in shape and dirtier/more patina :)

Are there forumites with similar hulu shapes and any age indications on them ?

Best regards,
Willem

Dom 19th August 2010 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zifir
Hi,
Sene 1278 = 1861/62 A.D.
First part is also very eligible but we need someone who knows the language of the region. :shrug:
hi
even through Arabic language, it's illegible :shrug:

+

Dom

asomotif 19th August 2010 11:04 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello Dom,

Thanks for joining.
Do you mean the whole writing is ilegible or just the first ?
I believe there is a parts arabic (red) and a part that is some western inititials carved in at later date (in blue)

Am I correct on that ?

Best regards,
Willem

Dom 20th August 2010 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Am I correct on that ?
Hi Willem
correct ?? sorry, but not fully ... :o

the translation, and explanations gave by "Zifir" was absolutely pertinent and correct
I just added, that in Arabic, no meaning apparently :p

here the correct form :p



+

Dom

asomotif 20th August 2010 07:17 AM

:o :o :o

Ok, I will hide myself under a rock and not be shown for some time :D ;)

Thanks Dom !
Thanks for the explanation.
This will surely help understanding these inscriptions in the future.

This also makes me very curious to the elegible part.
That must be something local / sumatran. :shrug:
Let's see if we can find some more helpers :)


Best regards,
Willem

tunggulametung 22nd August 2010 02:34 PM

We have to understand the vocabulary to read jawi because there is no vowel mark/harakat, but it sounded close enough to admir or samir & muhamad or mukamad, but again might read something else. In this particular case the script is rather vague. I think we should read the number in this direction <- no?
Maybe there's a better opinion from someone else, but hope this help.

David 22nd August 2010 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunggulametung
I think we should read the number in this direction <- no?

That is a good point. Shouldn't arabic be read right to left? :shrug:

Dom 22nd August 2010 06:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
That is a good point. Shouldn't arabic be read right to left? :shrug:

Yes ... EXCEPTED ... for numbers :p
don't seems coherent, but it's the fact :shrug:

e.i. ٢٠١٠ for 2010
it's read as; halfen (2000) achara (10)
===>> ===>> :p
littLe more complicated ١٢٣٤ for 1234
it's read as; half (1000) miten (200) arba (4) thalateen (30)

we are following me ;) :D

here to complete your chart for oriental number

Arabic 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Persian variant
۰ ۱ ۲ ۳ ۴ ۵ ۶ ۷ ۸ ۹


+

Dom

tunggulametung 22nd August 2010 07:11 PM

Thanks Dom for the clarification. Much like French numeric reading.

By the way, another variation that I have regarding the scrip: admir mahmud or makmud? :shrug: only until the better translation comes their way :D

mohd 12th September 2010 03:13 AM

Hi Willem, I got your message, anyhow I'm not a real good help in translating the inscription either :o

Hi Dom, Tunggul and others, you all had done great :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
.. But this Rudus / Cojang appears to have some inscription on the handle ..

First, IMVHO it is a Rudus but not a Kujang (i.e. spelled in Dutch as Cojang). It is a weapon of Bengkulu (i.e. Bencoolen). And a couple of them are shown in the current emblem of Bengkulu.



Back to the translation of the inscription, from right to left, that's the way to read Jawi writings, and the first word is the most difficult one to read:
  1. The first word: Might be QDMR (i.e. read as QADMIR which is a name of a person) or SHR (i.e. read as SHAHR which means the month)
  2. The second word: I'm sure it's a HJRT (i.e. read as HIJRAH which is the name of the Islamic calendar)
  3. The third word: I'm sure it's a SNT (i.e. read as SANAH which means the year of)
  4. The fourth word: I'm sure it's a numerical characters of 1278 which represent the year of 1278 Hihrah (i.e. in between of Tuesday 9 July 1861 C.E. and Saturday 28 June 1862 C.E.)
  5. The whole inscription: Most probably the transliteration are "SHAHR HIJRAH SANAH 1278" (i.e. direct translation: The month of Hijrah in the year of 1278) which can be freely translated as "this rudus is made in the Islamic era in Bengkulu sometimes in the year of 1278 Hijrah"
Hope it make sense, Willem :o

And hope it helps a little :o

mohd

asomotif 12th September 2010 10:41 PM

Quote:
I'm not a real good help in translating the inscription either

Dear Mohd,

Thanks for your modesty. You are sure of 75% of the inscription.
Sound like a very good help in translating imho :)

Maurice's (shopping list)scabbard which you helped translating has a small inscription in a western language, and probably even dutch.
Never the less, both Maurice an I are not able to read it. (yet)

Very interesting to know that in fact this is an inscription stating the age.
Rather unusual on indionesian weapons. so very nice to have such a piece in the collection.

And indeed, if I follow the book by forumite Albert van Zonneveld (tranditional weapons etc..) I would also call this a rudus. However, under the name cojang, there is a similar blade with as only difference just another style of hilt (hulu tapa guda). BUt as from now a Rudus it is.

Thanks and best regards,
Willem


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:00 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.