Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   Keris Warung Kopi (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   Keris Terengganu (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11672)

Laowang 20th March 2010 11:46 PM

Keris Terengganu
 
4 Attachment(s)
Greetings, all. I've lurked around the forum for a few years now, ever since I ran across it during a Google search. I thought maybe I would finally contribute, for a change.

By way of introduction, my own Keris Terengganu, the probable sibling of David's and Kai Wee's. 14 1/2" overall, with a 10 1/2" sepakol blade. Blade has the typical Bugis cross-section. These are not particularly good photographs, but you can see the pamor is identical to David's, if currently less visible (I have yet to clean and oil the blade).

A slender and delicate blade, particularly when compared to my larger Bugis keris. Would it be considered a patrem? It seems a little small for a grown man, although perhaps it is at the upper end of the length range for a patrem.

David 21st March 2010 05:36 PM

Greetings Laowang, welcome to the forum. I like your keris and do see th similarities. :)

PenangsangII 22nd March 2010 04:43 AM

greetings.....

In a patriachal system such as Trengganu, I doubt this is a patrem... keris for a boy is the strongest possibility....

BluErf 22nd March 2010 01:01 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I have two small terengganu kerises. They function as dress kerises, so that you don't have a huge batang sticking out of your kain samping, especially when you sit down. Ok fellow Malay forumnites and Malay speakers don't get the wrong idea ok... :D :D :D

BluErf 22nd March 2010 01:02 PM

To Laowang - you need to change the mendak into a proper pendoko. :)

Laowang 24th March 2010 03:15 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Kai Wee. Makes sense. Although, in my part of the world, one might choose to bring the larger keris, so that everyone knows you have a huge, ahem, 'batang'.

Yes, the mendak is finely made but inappropriate. I've been meaning to e-mail Adni for a replacement. Any suggestions about other sources for a proper pendoko would be welcome.

Does anyone know the name of this pamor?

By the way, my given name is Keoni, if you prefer to address me by it. Since I know many of yours after a few years of reading posts on this forum...

Alam Shah 27th March 2010 01:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laowang
.. Yes, the mendak is finely made but inappropriate. I've been meaning to e-mail Adni for a replacement. Any suggestions about other sources for a proper pendoko would be welcome.

Does anyone know the name of this pamor?

By the way, my given name is Keoni, if you prefer to address me by it. Since I know many of yours after a few years of reading posts on this forum...
Hi Keoni,

Congratulation! A nice keris indeed.. I agree that the hilt ring, is less appropriate. The flat bugis brass pendokok, would be simple and matching to this piece.. The pamor is known as 'katang tebu' (in malay).. meaning, sections of sugarcane.. with pamor 'gunungan' at the base.

ganjawulung 27th March 2010 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
I have two small terengganu kerises. They function as dress kerises, so that you don't have a huge batang sticking out of your kain samping, especially when you sit down. Ok fellow Malay forumnites and Malay speakers don't get the wrong idea ok... :D :D :D

By the way, Kai Wee, would you please enlighten me -- what is the significant difference between "terengganu keris" and "bugis keris"? I apologize for being too confused -- especially when you mention that the first picture is a terengganu keris...

GANJAWULUNG

David 27th March 2010 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
By the way, Kai Wee, would you please enlighten me -- what is the significant difference between "terengganu keris" and "bugis keris"? I apologize for being too confused -- especially when you mention that the first picture is a terengganu keris...

As i understand it Ganja, Bugis keris are found in many parts of the Indonesian archipelago as the seafaring Bugis tended to move around alot. But in the various places that they settled their keris can be seen to take on specific characteristics for that specific place. A Terengganu keris can therefore be a Bugis keris in style if it were made by and for Bugis people living in that area. But certainly not all Bugis keris are Teregganu. I think you might find greater differences in the dress than the actual blades, though forging materials may well vary from place to place.
Kai Wee could certainly point out the subtle differences in the various Bugis forms than i ever could. :)

ganjawulung 27th March 2010 06:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
A Terengganu keris can therefore be a Bugis keris in style if it were made by and for Bugis people living in that area. But certainly not all Bugis keris are Teregganu. I think you might find greater differences in the dress than the actual blades, though forging materials may well vary from place to place.
Kai Wee could certainly point out the subtle differences in the various Bugis forms than i ever could. :)

Thanks, David for the response. Sometimes, it is confusing to me. When I find a "bugis" keris, but dressed in "palembang" style for instance, can I mention it "a palembang keris"? Or "a bugis keris but in Palembang dress"? So, which must we classify geographically the keris? From dress, or blade?

What I want to make sure from the picture, was the blade made in terengganu by terengganu empu, or just dressed in terengganu style but the blade was actually made in Bugis? What are spesific characteristics of terengganu blade?

It is the same question I will ask myself. If I have a "sundang" -- whether it is Moro or Malay -- but dressed in Javanese style. Then, may I call it "a javanese sundang"?

In other ways, sometimes I find "bugis form keris" but sheated in Palembang way -- then may I called it is a "palembang keris", or "bugis blade dressed in palembang style"?

Once again, I apologize for being confused...

GANJAWULUNG

Gustav 27th March 2010 07:07 PM

A great thread for reading (regarding this "ever green" discussion about the blade and dress): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=terengganu

David 27th March 2010 07:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Thanks, David for the response. Sometimes, it is confusing to me. When I find a "bugis" keris, but dressed in "palembang" style for instance, can I mention it "a palembang keris"? Or "a bugis keris but in Palembang dress"? So, which must we classify geographically the keris? From dress, or blade?

What I want to make sure from the picture, was the blade made in terengganu by terengganu empu, or just dressed in terengganu style but the blade was actually made in Bugis? What are spesific characteristics of terengganu blade?

It is the same question I will ask myself. If I have a "sundang" -- whether it is Moro or Malay -- but dressed in Javanese style. Then, may I call it "a javanese sundang"?

In other ways, sometimes I find "bugis form keris" but sheated in Palembang way -- then may I called it is a "palembang keris", or "bugis blade dressed in palembang style"?

Once again, I apologize for being confused...

This is indeed an endless question and is, of course, dependent upon specific examples.
AFAIK it is indeed proper to refer to a keris as being, let's say, a Palembang keris if it is properly dressed as such regardless of it's blades origin. Blades often travel, either in trade or because their owner has moved. To dress your blade as is appropriate for the region in which you are living would make a lot of sense. Of course, here we are just speaking about when this type of dressing is done for cultural purpose. These days it is not uncommon to find all sorts of blade origins dressed all sorts of ways at the whim of dealers who are merely redressing old blades for the purpose of sales. Sometimes it's a tough or impossible call. Is it properly dressed this way or is a a "dealer mixed bag special"?
Personally i would not call a Moro kris in a Javanese sheath a Javanese Sundang, but maybe others will think differently.
But when we are discussing Bugis keris it seems to me that we have other factors to keep in mind. You probably wouldn't find too many Javanese style keris being made on the Peninsula, but since Bugis communities pop up all over the archipelago you may well find someone was making Bugis style keris there at some time. I would also be interesting in knowing whether or not we can detect subtle character differences in a Bugis blade made in Sulawesi to that of one made in Teregganu. :shrug: :)

A. G. Maisey 27th March 2010 11:32 PM

What I have been taught is that we can name a keris style according what can be seen when it is in its wrongko, that is, a keris can be "Jogja", or "Solo", or "Bali", or any other major classification, according to the style of its wrongko and hilt.

However, when we remove the blade from the wrongko, we then classify as, for example, a Jogja keris with a Bugis blade, or a Bali keris with Javanese blade. We extend the tangguh concept from saying a Jogja keris with a Sultan Agung blade, to saying a Jogja keris with Bugis blade.

Tangguh really only refers to blades from within The Land of Jawa, which does not mean the Island of Jawa, it means the extent of the territory where the language of Javanese is spoken, thus, when we look at a blade which does not fit the Javanese system of tangguh, we either dismiss it as "outside of Jawa", or we give it a broad classification as "Bugis", "Sumatera", "Bali" --- or whatever.

Over the years I have not infrequently encountered blades from localities outside Jawa, in old, originally fitted Javanese wrongkos. In times past, men from other areas, notably Madura, Bali and Sulawesi, served as mercenaries for Javanese rulers and lords. If a wrongko needed to be replaced whilst these men were serving in Jawa, then clearly, it would have been replaced with a wrongko of Javanese style --- and the hilt would likely follow.

It is well established that weapon blades, including keris, were a Javanese export to other parts of SE Asia from Majapahit times, so not only should we not be surprised when we see foriegn blades in Javanese dress, but when we see Javanese blades, or blades that follow a Javanese pattern, in dress from other localities, this should also not cause any surprises.


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:21 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.