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-   -   barrels with tube fastening in 1470-80 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11038)

Spiridonov 7th November 2009 11:10 PM

barrels with tube fastening in 1470-80
 
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This question for Michael. Hello, Michael. I wish to ask you. Do you have photos of handgonnes with tube fastening on a simple stick for 1470-80 with the sizes (calibre, lengtn...) and the description (marks, matireal...)? For example, whether here of this kind (1, 2, 3, 4). Do you have information about this barrels (5)? Is the stoks original or not? What is the date of this? Still I wish to ask, how is frequent barrels of this types was painted? Sorry - too many questions :)

Matchlock 8th November 2009 01:17 PM

Hi Alexander,

For photos of tiller/stick guns of the mid to the 2nd half of the 15th century, please go to

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8461.

The barrel of the first gun in my thread, ca. 1450, is of wrought iron, the one of the second (ca. 1500) of copper alloy (brass or bronze). The socket of the first retains remains of the original tiller stock while this is preserved completely on the second gun.
I will post the measurements and data soon.

The watercolors nos. 1-4 in your thread are taken from a codex of ca. 1480 preserved in the collections of the Princes of Waldburg-Wolfegg, and illuminated by an anonymous artist known as Meister des Hausbuchs (Master of the housebook).

Your photo no. 5 shows some of a large number of haquebuts with wrought iron barrels, ca. 1460-1500, mostly of Nuremberg and Bohemian make, all preserved at the Západoceské Muzeum Pilsen, Czechia. Some of their stocks are original while others seem to be later reconstructions. Unfortunately this is hard to determine nowadays because, after left in virtually untouched and perfectly patinated condition for hundreds of years, all of the Pilsen guns were exposed to heavy 'restoration' measures in the 1980's, often with extremely sad results for the pieces, especially the stocks. E.g., large pieces of felt were nailed to the rear flat ends of the buttstocks, a rather 'ingenious' method indeed of preventing them from 'damage'. All the wooden surfaces were crudely smoothened and varnished thickly. As I said, the outcome is very sad and - what is even worse - irreversible and it is really hard to tell what is old and what is new, and it is absolutely impossible to tell what they looked like orginally.
Just for the sake of completeness let me add that the iron parts had been acid cleaned.

I went here with so much enthusiasm to see one of the oldest preserved collections in the world, and then my eyes almost filled up with tears.

As to the question of painting of late 15th century stocks, this cannot be answered by just yes or no. From my experience I should say that most stocks were just left untreated while others were varnished and some even painted polychromatic including decorative symbols such as floral patterns and even coats-of-arms. The wood used for the stocks of heavy pieces was mostly oak, sometimes ash, but I have also seen fir and beech now and then.

I tried to give a few highly unusual examples of painted Gothic stocks in former threads.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 8th November 2009 07:16 PM

I was meaning not painting of stocks but painting of barrels :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I will post the measurements and data soon.

Thanks, I will be wait. :)

Matchlock 1st December 2009 03:49 PM

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Hi Alexander,

Please accept my heartfelt excuses for letting you wait so long! :shrug: :o
Here are the answers to your qestions concerning the measurement data of my two tiller guns.

The measurements of the bronze barrel tiller (stick) gun formerly in my collection, late 15th century, are:
overall length 146.8 cm, barrel 56.6 cm, caliber 13 mm (measured about one inch back of the bell shaped muzzle opening widened for easier loading).

The data of my wrought iron barrel, with remains of its original tiller stock preserved in the socket, ca. 1450-60, are:
overall length 72.7 cm, barrel 56.1 cm, caliber at the widened muzzle 20 mm, narrowing to ca. 16 mm after about one inch (see above).

Best wishes,
Michael

Matchlock 1st December 2009 04:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
I was meaning not painting of stocks but painting of barrels :)

Thanks, I will be wait. :)



Hi Alexander,

In my experience iron barrels were quite often painted red with minium (red lead) in the Gothic era; this was most probably an anti corrosive measure as well as it may have expressed the general appreciation of the color red in that period of time.

Although such varnishes have mostly gone from the rusty iron surfaces in the course of the centuries small remains can often still be found in protected areas. Longer barrels of heavier pieces seem to have been painted more often than smaller ones; e.g., I hardly know of any painted little barrel (ca. 15-30 cm) that may have originally been part of a hand cannon.

Best wishes,
Michael

fernando 3rd December 2009 07:04 PM

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Oh, one day, when i am grown up and well behaved, i shall have one of these.
Sigh :shrug: .
Fernando

.

Spiridonov 6th December 2009 08:44 AM

Hello Michael! Thanks for very useful and valuable information. I am very grateful for the help

Spiridonov 6th December 2009 01:03 PM

does anybody know calibre and length of arquebuse №5?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=51980&stc=1

Matchlock 7th December 2009 07:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
does anybody know calibre and length of arquebuse №5?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=51980&stc=1



Hi Alexander,

Thanks to the thoroughness of the Austrian Lieutenant Major Paul Sixl, who took all the photos you have been quoting and also noted the measurements of all these guns which were published in the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde, vol. 2, 1900-02, pp. 264ff., I can tell you that the wrought iron haquebut barrel no. 5 has an overall length including the socket of 99.8 cm while the barrel itself has a bore length of 79.7 cm and a caliber of 26 mm; the piece weighs 15.4 kg.

Telling by the place of your red number 5 which indeed marks the first in line barrel of the group, though, I am not quite sure whether you really meant that first barrel (which actually is no. 1 in Sixl's article).:shrug:

Best wishes :) ,
Michael

Spiridonov 8th December 2009 08:43 AM

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Thank you! But i had mean this barrel (look at attachment) :-) but i interesting in other barrels from Sixl's article too :-) Especially i interesting in quality foto of stock of this arquebuse.

Matchlock 9th December 2009 06:22 PM

The Pilsen haquebuts recorded by Sixl in ZWK 1900-02
 
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Hi Alexander,

If you allow some time I will post all 18 haquebuts prerserved in the Západocéske Musezeum Pilsen, together with the photos and all their relevant measurements and data. Please keep in mind that all I have is these more than 100 year old b&w photos taken by Sixl. 17 of these 18 haquebuts seemingly retain their original stocks and one of them even a primitve snap tinderlock. When I was at the Pilsen Muzeum in 2000 the curator was unfortunately not able to find that one. I can't really blame him because you should see the astounding masses of more than 250 firearms before ca. 1530, all displayed on trestles and with very little space in between. Sadly enough, many of them are displayed with the touch hole (and in this case the lock!) facing the walls - and they are fixed in their position with iron bands!

As Sixl's article is in German I am not quite sure how to do it. In fact I know too little about computers to be able and scan Sixl's tabulated list and translate the German text into English. I have to as ask around a bit how to get the translations into the table elements. But you will live to see it, no doubt.

Best,
Michael

fernando 9th December 2009 11:19 PM

Mama mia :eek:
What a display!
Fernando

Spiridonov 10th December 2009 06:54 AM

Hi, Michael! So I see, what you have no sizes of this barrel?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
p/s
Thanks for great fotos :)

Matchlock 10th December 2009 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Hi, Michael! So I see, what you have no sizes of this barrel?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
p/s
Thanks for great fotos :)


Oh yes, I have, :)

and I will post them together with the the measurements of the other Pilsen pieces, so please be patient!

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 12th April 2010 08:33 PM

Michael, can You make canning without transate? Only scanning. If health certainly allows. If it is heavy for you because of a sick back then do not do it

Matchlock 13th April 2010 03:59 PM

The measurements of Seven Pilsen Tiller Guns
 
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Hi Alexander,

These are the measurements of the group of seven tiller guns marked 5 by you according to Sixl, ZHWK, 1900-02, p. 264 ff.


Length of barrel in cm; weight in kg; caliber in mm; top to bottom:

1. 94.6; 13.7; 21;

2. 84.6; 12.3; 21;

3. 91.8; 12.8; 21;

4. 88; 14.9; 24;

5. 99.8; 15.4; 26;

6. 90; 11.9; 22;

7. 96; 13.1; 26.



Simple scanning was not possible vor various reasons, moreover the text is in German and there are misprints in Sixl's table.

Please note that Sixl did not give the length of the stocks as he was not sure about their being the original.

I do hope this will help you along.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 13th April 2010 04:55 PM

Thanks biggest! These is a very valuable data. Does the length specified together with the plug (tube) or not? else i whant to ask: Have this barrel chamber or not?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52612&stc=1
Else as this handgonne is in your collection I wish to ask you. May i make a replica of this?

Spiridonov 13th April 2010 05:14 PM

Michel do you have data fof full table?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=48390&stc=1

Matchlock 13th April 2010 05:31 PM

Sixl's measurements of the barrel lengths do include the tubular sockets. What you call a chamber, i.e. the breech originally receiving the powder and ball, is covered in any case.

My scanner is out of order at the moment but as soon as it is back at work I will publish a scan of all those data.
Dont' expect too much of them though, they are extremely bewildering, even to an expert, and I am afraid I might be of very little help to you ...

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 13th April 2010 06:18 PM

Data which you have given correspond to numbers at the left or to an arrangement of burrels from top to a bottom? There can be misunderstanding of that when I mounted this photo I have broken an arrangement of burrels and numbering. Sorry for my stupid qestions
:)

Spiridonov 13th April 2010 06:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
What you call a chamber, i.e. the breech originally receiving the powder and ball, is covered in any case.

I had mean a narrowing inside of barrel from your collection. Had it narrowing?

Matchlock 14th April 2010 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
I had mean a narrowing inside of barrel from your collection. Had it narrowing?



Just very slightly.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 14th April 2010 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Data which you have given correspond to numbers at the left or to an arrangement of burrels from top to a bottom? There can be misunderstanding of that when I mounted this photo I have broken an arrangement of burrels and numbering. Sorry for my stupid qestions
:)



Don't worry, there really should be no misunderstanding whatsoever. The numbers in the text do correspond to the barrels (whose numbers can be identified) from top to bottom, just as they are illustrated in Sixl's article.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 14th April 2010 03:34 PM

at this picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=56825&stc=1
this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1 have number 5
but it have number 7 at this picture
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=48390&stc=1
have this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
this parametras 99.8; 15.4; 26;
or this 96; 13.1; 26
It is a very important becaese i want to make a replica of this. And every millimeter is very impotant
p.s.
Thanks for the help. I apologise for too many questions. Excuse me

Spiridonov 19th April 2010 05:58 PM

5 Attachment(s)
I have made 3D model of barrel which was most interesting for me:

Spiridonov 18th May 2011 07:19 PM

http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum...,-ca-1350.aspx#
I think that this barrel is about 1480-90 years. Looks like barrels from Pilsen and Vienna. Please, look at the mark which is a hammer. I have seen similar mark on the barrels from museums of Vienna (Heeresgeschichtliches museum and Rustkammer). Who was the owner of this mark? :confused:

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 04:41 PM

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3 beautiful barrel from Heeresgeschichtliches museum in Wienna. They all made from bronze. Length of upper barrel is about 575 mm. Calibre is about 15 mm. I don't know exactly because i have put my scale through the glass.
Michael, Do You know parameters of he upper handgonne?
p/s it looks like barrels from Bulgaria.

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 04:42 PM

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else

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 04:58 PM

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Barrels from one of Bulgariains museums.

Matchlock 19th May 2011 06:07 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum...,-ca-1350.aspx#
I think that this barrel is about 1480-90 years. Looks like barrels from Pilsen and Vienna. Please, look at the mark which is a hammer. I have seen similar mark on the barrels from museums of Vienna (Heeresgeschichtliches museum and Rustkammer). Who was the owner of this mark? :confused:


Hi Alexander,

You are absolutetly right in assuming that the date given for this tiller haquebut by the NRA National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, Va., is far from being correct. 'Ca. 1350' is just ridiculous.

This mark, a goatsfoot hammer, is the personal mark of the famos barrelsmith Sebald Pögl the Elder, Thörl, Styria. Between 1498 and 1506, Pögl furnished 9,950 (!!!) haquebuts for the armories of the Emperor Maximilian I, so 'ca. 1500' would be the correct date for this piece.

Other haquebuts with Pögl's mark are preserved in the Vienna Hofburg and the Landeszeughaus Graz, Styria.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 19th May 2011 06:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
3 beautiful barrel from Heeresgeschichtliches museum in Wienna. They all made from bronze. Length of upper barrel is about 575 mm. Calibre is about 15 mm. I don't know exactly because i have put my scale through the glass.
Michael, Do You know parameters of he upper handgonne?
p/s it looks like barrels from Bulgaria.



Hi Alexander,

I sadly do not have the measurements of these haquebuts in Vienna but I can tell you that all of them can be dated to the late 15th c. up to ca. 1500, and that all were Austrian, mostly Styrian productions made by barrelsmiths like Sebald Pögl, who also furnished pieces for other armories, e.g. those in Bulgaria and Czechia. That's why they look so similar. ;)

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 06:34 PM

Thank You, Michael. Some barrels from Pilsen looks like barrel from the NRA. Can we assume that all barrel of this type is about 1500 year or some barrel from Pilsen collection is earlier?

Matchlock 19th May 2011 06:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
at this picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=56825&stc=1
this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1 have number 5
but it have number 7 at this picture
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=48390&stc=1
have this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
this parametras 99.8; 15.4; 26;
or this 96; 13.1; 26
It is a very important becaese i want to make a replica of this. And every millimeter is very impotant
p.s.
Thanks for the help. I apologise for too many questions. Excuse me



Hi Alexander,

I looked up the haquebut in question in the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde, vol. 2, 1900-02, p. 264, and Sixl identifies this piece no. 7 with the following measurements:

weight 13.1 kg
materials wrought iron and oak
length of barrel including socket 96 cm
length of bore 79.1 cm
cal. 26 mm
touchhole four-sided, on right hand side
hook moveable, 10 cm rear of muzzle

Interesting enough, Sixl did not mention the length of the tiller stock but this will be easy for you to find out by the relations of the whole gun.

Have fun!,
and best,
Michael

Matchlock 19th May 2011 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Thank You, Michael. Some barrels from Pilsen looks like barrel from the NRA. Can we assume that all barrel of this type is about 1500 year or some barrel from Pilsen collection is earlier?



Hi Alexander,

This type of barrel is of basic latest Gothic form and can be generally attributed to the 'late 15th c.', which means ca. 1480-90. Admittedly it is rather unusual to be found as late as the early 16th c. like in the case of Pögl's haquebuts but Pögl by then was already an old man and worked together with his son, so he seems to have continued the oldfashioned style.

In other words: wouldn't we know Pögl's mark and working life dates, I too would assign his haquebuts to 'ca. 1480-90'. :rolleyes:

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 08:17 PM

Michael, I am grateful to you. I should have to call You my teacher because a lot of my knowledges about early firearms was given to me by You :D
Danke

Matchlock 20th May 2011 05:29 PM

Spasiba, Alexander,

Go on working and studying like this and you soon will surpass your teacher! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 27th November 2011 08:54 PM

5 Attachment(s)
The beautiful bronze handgonne from Göteborg
http://carlotta.gotlib.goteborg.se/...objMasidn=35125
I think it late 15 century (the front side of the muzzle let us to suggest it)

Matchlock 28th November 2011 05:51 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Hi Alexander the Great ;) :cool: :eek: ,

Another great and astonishing find, thank you very much for sharing!

I think your dating is exactly right, and post the photoshopped (though low-rez) pics.

Thanks again,
Michael

Spiridonov 28th November 2011 06:45 PM

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It seems that hook has been broken. Look at the Berns chronics. We can see the muzzle neb of absoulutly similar shape.
Michael, i remember that You discussed barrel that looks like this cut in half :D
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...12091&highlight
But I think that it is not early 15 century. I guess it much later
By the way this museum is not so far from Saint-Petersberg. So, It is possibly that I will visit this museum to make some photos of this handgonne

Matchlock 28th November 2011 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
:D
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...12091&highlight
But I think that it is not early 15 century. I guess it much later


Now that you beat me at my own game ( :shrug: :rolleyes: ) I have to admit you were right: that curious double barrel haquebut actually should be dated 'late 15th c.' as well!

Thank you so much again, and of course additional images would be great if you could take them!

And as to the hook, I of course agree it was either cut of broken off.

Best,
Michael


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