Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   barrels with tube fastening in 1470-80 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11038)

Matchlock 19th May 2011 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
3 beautiful barrel from Heeresgeschichtliches museum in Wienna. They all made from bronze. Length of upper barrel is about 575 mm. Calibre is about 15 mm. I don't know exactly because i have put my scale through the glass.
Michael, Do You know parameters of he upper handgonne?
p/s it looks like barrels from Bulgaria.



Hi Alexander,

I sadly do not have the measurements of these haquebuts in Vienna but I can tell you that all of them can be dated to the late 15th c. up to ca. 1500, and that all were Austrian, mostly Styrian productions made by barrelsmiths like Sebald Pögl, who also furnished pieces for other armories, e.g. those in Bulgaria and Czechia. That's why they look so similar. ;)

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 05:34 PM

Thank You, Michael. Some barrels from Pilsen looks like barrel from the NRA. Can we assume that all barrel of this type is about 1500 year or some barrel from Pilsen collection is earlier?

Matchlock 19th May 2011 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
at this picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=56825&stc=1
this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1 have number 5
but it have number 7 at this picture
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=48390&stc=1
have this barrel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=52722&stc=1
this parametras 99.8; 15.4; 26;
or this 96; 13.1; 26
It is a very important becaese i want to make a replica of this. And every millimeter is very impotant
p.s.
Thanks for the help. I apologise for too many questions. Excuse me



Hi Alexander,

I looked up the haquebut in question in the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde, vol. 2, 1900-02, p. 264, and Sixl identifies this piece no. 7 with the following measurements:

weight 13.1 kg
materials wrought iron and oak
length of barrel including socket 96 cm
length of bore 79.1 cm
cal. 26 mm
touchhole four-sided, on right hand side
hook moveable, 10 cm rear of muzzle

Interesting enough, Sixl did not mention the length of the tiller stock but this will be easy for you to find out by the relations of the whole gun.

Have fun!,
and best,
Michael

Matchlock 19th May 2011 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Thank You, Michael. Some barrels from Pilsen looks like barrel from the NRA. Can we assume that all barrel of this type is about 1500 year or some barrel from Pilsen collection is earlier?



Hi Alexander,

This type of barrel is of basic latest Gothic form and can be generally attributed to the 'late 15th c.', which means ca. 1480-90. Admittedly it is rather unusual to be found as late as the early 16th c. like in the case of Pögl's haquebuts but Pögl by then was already an old man and worked together with his son, so he seems to have continued the oldfashioned style.

In other words: wouldn't we know Pögl's mark and working life dates, I too would assign his haquebuts to 'ca. 1480-90'. :rolleyes:

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 19th May 2011 07:17 PM

Michael, I am grateful to you. I should have to call You my teacher because a lot of my knowledges about early firearms was given to me by You :D
Danke

Matchlock 20th May 2011 04:29 PM

Spasiba, Alexander,

Go on working and studying like this and you soon will surpass your teacher! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 27th November 2011 07:54 PM

5 Attachment(s)
The beautiful bronze handgonne from Göteborg
http://carlotta.gotlib.goteborg.se/...objMasidn=35125
I think it late 15 century (the front side of the muzzle let us to suggest it)

Matchlock 28th November 2011 04:51 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Hi Alexander the Great ;) :cool: :eek: ,

Another great and astonishing find, thank you very much for sharing!

I think your dating is exactly right, and post the photoshopped (though low-rez) pics.

Thanks again,
Michael

Spiridonov 28th November 2011 05:45 PM

1 Attachment(s)
It seems that hook has been broken. Look at the Berns chronics. We can see the muzzle neb of absoulutly similar shape.
Michael, i remember that You discussed barrel that looks like this cut in half :D
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...12091&highlight
But I think that it is not early 15 century. I guess it much later
By the way this museum is not so far from Saint-Petersberg. So, It is possibly that I will visit this museum to make some photos of this handgonne

Matchlock 28th November 2011 06:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
:D
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...12091&highlight
But I think that it is not early 15 century. I guess it much later


Now that you beat me at my own game ( :shrug: :rolleyes: ) I have to admit you were right: that curious double barrel haquebut actually should be dated 'late 15th c.' as well!

Thank you so much again, and of course additional images would be great if you could take them!

And as to the hook, I of course agree it was either cut of broken off.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 3rd December 2011 10:04 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The barrel of absolutely similar type ( handgonne from Kalmar (Sweden))
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/bild.asp?uid=315308
http://catview.historiska.se/catvie...a/highres/48315
http://catview.historiska.se/catvie.../highres/103066

Spiridonov 3rd December 2011 03:18 PM

4 Attachment(s)
absolutely unique barrel (I have never seen this type before)
http://carl.kulturen.com/pls/carlot...in_masidn=45820

fernando 3rd December 2011 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
absolutely unique barrel (I have never seen this type before)...


Ah, the type of cannon i would like so much to have :shrug: .


-

Matchlock 3rd December 2011 05:53 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi Alexander,

The shape of this mid-15th c. tiller barrel without showing an accentuated, reinforced breech is highy unusual indeed. There is another, similar though preserved in the famous Princely collection at Konopiste Castle, Czechia: tiller stock missing, barrel ca. 1450, length 49.5 mm, cal. 39 mm!

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 3rd December 2011 06:27 PM

Thank You for sharing! Have it chamber or not?

Matchlock 3rd December 2011 06:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I marked the touchhole which markes the beginning of the breech (powder chamber); behind it is the tiller socket (now empty).

m

Spiridonov 3rd December 2011 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I marked the touchhole which markes the beginning of the breech (powder chamber); behind it is the tiller socket (now empty).

m

I mean chamber tapering inside of barrel (Like on Tannenberg handgonne). This barrel both was made with very high quality and have a very thin sids. We can see similar barrels on this Spanish tapestry
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=69714&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=tapestry

fernando 3rd December 2011 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
... We can see similar barrels on this Spanish tapestry ...


You mean Portuguese :cool:

Spiridonov 3rd December 2011 08:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
You mean Portuguese :cool:

Of course, I'm sorry :D

Matchlock 3rd December 2011 11:28 PM

[QUOTE=Spiridonov]I mean chamber tapering inside of barrel (Like on Tannenberg handgonne). [/QUOTE.

I think this should be actually called a bore narrowing behind a bell-mouthed or widened muzzle.

I have often found this with a lot of 15th c. barrels when exactly measured, e.g. with my own famous haquebut barrel dated 1481, which you yourself handled in my collection. I think it was just an easy method to simplify loading the gun, especially with any kind of shot.

Please ref.: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...nich+dated+1481

Anyway, youre doubtlessly right concering the unusually thinness at the bronze muzzle walls - that's really astounding, especially for bronze! Seems to have worked in a way, though ... :eek:


Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 4th December 2011 07:43 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
I think this should be actually called a bore narrowing behind a bell-mouthed or widened muzzle.

Michael I mean not a bore narrowing but this part of barrel:

Matchlock 4th December 2011 03:25 PM

Hi Alexander,

I don't know whether this barrel has a narrowed bore at the breech but regarding its date I doubt it has.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 4th December 2011 06:01 PM

7 Attachment(s)
An unusually large (135 cm long) and heavy (ca. 15 kg) wrought iron tiller-socketed haquebut barrel, ca. 1490-1500, sold at the Dorotheum Vienna a few days ago. It fteched more than 9,300 euro.
On top of the end of the socket (tube) you can see the nail hole for fixing the (now missing) tiller. A bit further to the right, there is the touch hole on the right hand side.
As the later-added barrel loops and the hole in the hook indicate, it was alterated for a full stock during its working life, most probably in the 1520's, the Peasants' Wars. It must also have been then that a dove-tailed igniting pan was attached to the touch hole (now missing); the dovetail is still visible.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 30th December 2011 07:20 PM

http://www.handgonne.com/gonne_1a.html
Michael, I think that 14 is the wrong date. What do You think about this barrel? It dont't looks like european at all :confused:

Matchlock 31st December 2011 02:55 PM

It's of Chinese origin and probably 18th c., that's why it doesn't look European. There are many of these around on the market.

Best,
Michael

fernando 31st December 2011 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
It's of Chinese origin and probably 18th c., that's why it doesn't look European. There are many of these around on the market.

Best,
Michael


Oh ... i almost dared to say so myself, but prefered to wait for the master :cool:

Swordfish 2nd January 2012 11:51 AM

2 Attachment(s)
A German bronze hackbut c.1470-1500. Lenght 780 mm,
Bore 20.5 mm Weight 11.8 kg

Matchlock 2nd January 2012 02:12 PM

Good job, Swordfish,

Where is this barrel, which was originally fitted with a tiller stock and later alterated to full-stock, preserved?

Best,
Michael

Swordfish 3rd January 2012 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Good job, Swordfish,

Where is this barrel, which was originally fitted with a tiller stock and later alterated to full-stock, preserved?

Best,
Michael


Unfortunately I don`t know what you mean. The Kronburg hackbut?

Andi 25th January 2013 06:36 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Here are two hackbuts from Sweden:

http://www.historiska.se/data/?foremal=123316
With remains of the wooden shaft. Found in Skåne in the region of Norra Åsum, this one is undated. Barrel 101 cm, calibre 19 mm

http://www.historiska.se/data/?foremal=115866
Found in Stockholm, dated to the late middle ages. Barrel 106 cm, calibre not mentioned.


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