Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Photos from museum of artillery (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10281)

M ELEY 16th August 2009 02:59 AM

Absolutely fantastic, Fernando. Thank you! I've become quite fascinated with swivels in their defense of ships. I had never heard the term "bercos" (cradles) before. Now I have more to research- Thanks. Anyone else with rail gun pics?
P.S. Fernando, you lucky dog! From those pics, you must live in a beautiful port city. Green with envy... :(

Dmitry 16th August 2009 07:21 PM

Judging by the breeches of these naval swivel guns, gases blew out of them like there's no tomorrow.

M ELEY 17th August 2009 03:03 AM

True, the breech-loading types might have lost some of their...um...gas :D , but as a close-range weapon meant to sweep the enemies decks, they didn't necessarily need much range. That would have strictly been left up to the larger cannon.

celtan 17th August 2009 12:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi guys,

Muzzle-loading deck guns in Spain were known as Versos or Falcones, (althought the latter was sometimes employed up to three pounders).

These guns were used in both ships and land fortifications, and their advantage lies in that they could be served sometimes by a single soldier, and were fast to load and fire. Their firing angle could be depressed close to the vertical, for close targets, as enemies close to the walls, boarders, or when shooting from the "carajo" high in the mast.

Breech loaders such as this were known as Patarreros.

I wonder, what would be the market price of one like this..?

I know of one that was found at a wreck site, and is unceremoniously sitting in a corner (after being stabilized) at a local museum depot. I have been trying to make the authorities realize how important that piece is, but If I could give them a $ figure, perhaps they would take better care of it...

BTW: Some breech-loaders were of the larger caliber, and were sometimes fired in banks.

Best

M

fernando 17th August 2009 04:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
... P.S. Fernando, you lucky dog! From those pics, you must live in a beautiful port city. Green with envy... :(

When i mentioned close from my place i meant close from my home town . That is, the ship was built in the neighbour town, which is actualy 'glued' to mine.
Both are fishing ports, mine being nowadays a larger one. But in the town where this ship was made, there is much more naval construction history; in fact they used to build caravels there, in the discoveries period.
Tey coordinates Lat: 41.3728, Lon: -8.7719 through Google and you will see my town harbour.
Fernando

fernando 17th August 2009 04:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
True, the breech-loading types might have lost some of their...um...gas :D , but as a close-range weapon meant to sweep the enemies decks, they didn't necessarily need much range. That would have strictly been left up to the larger cannon.

Correct reasoning; in fact, most of those pieces were of small dimensions and classified as anti personal. Some times they carried them along on foot, when making incursions in the interior.
They were also good to use in the bateis (ship's rowing boats) to board other ships or engage in battle with other rowing vessels, which so often took place.

fernando 17th August 2009 05:12 PM

Hola Manolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
... or when shooting from the "carajo" high in the mast ...

Here is a piece of semanthics that many people ignores, even Spanyards (mainly Galicians) and Portuguese, where the term is now only known for its second sense ;) .

Saludos

Fernando

celtan 17th August 2009 08:40 PM

Holá Nandiño,

Actually it's a very interesting word. Carajo/ caraxo can either be 1. a sailing ship "crow's nest", 2. an animal's male sexual organ, or 3. a tax imposed by arabs on the lands of christian subjects.

I guess that the common theme for all three was that you ended up xodido...

Best,

: )


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hola Manolo


Here is a piece of semanthics that many people ignores, even Spanyards (mainly Galicians) and Portuguese, where the term is now only known for its second sense ;) .

Saludos

Fernando

fernando 17th August 2009 08:59 PM

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Marc 18th August 2009 09:21 AM

:rolleyes:

Well, the word "verga" (eng. "yard", not the unit of length but the spar on a mast from which sails are set) has also a naval origin... :D



Hmm... there's that distinct feeling of a Ban Hammer looming in the horizon...

celtan 18th August 2009 12:08 PM

Yes, verga is a piece of wood. So, the title "Countess of Vergara" implies she was a noblewoman in a woody land....

:D

M


BTW: In Spain, a batel was an early type of medieval boat/small ship with a roundish, wide bottom, I believe they were known as cockles in the English world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
:rolleyes:

Well, the word "verga" (eng. "yard", not the unit of length but the spar on a mast from which sails are set) has also a naval origin... :D



Hmm... there's that distinct feeling of a Ban Hammer looming in the horizon...

fernando 20th August 2009 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
... In Spain, a batel was an early type of medieval boat/small ship with a roundish, wide bottom, I believe they were known as cockles in the English world?

In the discoveries context, the batel was the largest of the boats carried aboard ships. It could carry several men, manoeuvered by oar or sail, and was used for several heavy duty services, like taking personel ashore, bring the water barrels aboard, engage in battle, do exploitation or fighting incursions up rivers, and even tow the ships when the wind was weak or absent, or from an incovenient direction. In the battle of Ormuz (Afonso de Albuquerque 1507) the bateis were used to tow the ships to the vicinity of the enemy's (Turks) vessels, for close quarters bombardment and consequent boarding. They were often carried inside the ships, near the main mast; in the case of smaller ships (caravels), bateis were often carried sideways ( board to board) and upside down, between the mast and the stern.
The smaller boats aboard (or towed) were the esquifes, operated by four or six oarsmen, and only used for small tasks, including the transportation of some person, like taking a captain to the admiral ship, for a meeting.
Fernando

fernando 20th August 2009 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
:rolleyes:

Well, the word "verga" (eng. "yard", not the unit of length but the spar on a mast from which sails are set) has also a naval origin... :D



Hmm... there's that distinct feeling of a Ban Hammer looming in the horizon...


Vergas could be huge ... i mean, ship's vergas (spars) ;) .
I don't know whether French adventurer Pyrard de Laval (1575-1652) was exagerating when, at describing the Portuguese naus of the India route as being the largest ships afloat, quoted their spars as measuring twenty four fathoms, needing two hundred men to lift them ... and with the support of two powerfull capstans.
How's that? :confused:

Marc 21st August 2009 09:31 AM

So, what you are stating is that the Portugese are the ones who have the biggest ver... err... spars?
Big words, there. I hope you have something to show us in order to back them up!


Please, someone stop me... :o

fernando 22nd August 2009 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
... Big words, there. I hope you have something to show us in order to back them up!

Your'e right; big words ... only. Nothing to show anymore; that's long gone :shrug: .

Marc 24th August 2009 03:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Your'e right; big words ... only. Nothing to show anymore; that's long gone :shrug: .
You tell me... :rolleyes:

But what was hanging from these... spars... made them build one of the biggest and greatest commercial empires the world has seen. And I mean the sails, of course. :)

On a more serious note, I always admired, sincerely, how they managed, given their demographics.

And I better stop now with the plays on words... :)

Best,

Marc

Spiridonov 2nd January 2011 09:02 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Collection of museum of artillery in Saint-Petersberg has greatly increased. Some things was removed. I was able to measure one barrel and make quality photos of them. Total length is 1925 mm, calibre is 105 mm:

Spiridonov 2nd January 2011 09:04 PM

3 Attachment(s)
We can clearly see the marks:

M ELEY 3rd January 2011 05:01 AM

Great shots of some of these types, Alexender. I especially love the small brass British ? coehorn mortar. Thanks for the pics!

fernando 4th January 2011 11:58 AM

Great cannon example Alexander.
Thanks for showing.

Matchlock 4th January 2011 07:27 PM

Just excellent images, Alexander! :cool: :eek:


This one sure is a roaring New Year's fire cracker. :rolleyes:

Actually these seem to be two different guns, and I'm not sure which one the scrolled and marked rear finial belongs to.

The one with the hook to me seems to have been made about ca. 1430-40 and it is very nice to see that it retains most of its original painted red lead (minimum) painted surface.


Could you please mail me the images in high resolution? :)

Anxiously waiting to see more of the museum's extended exhibition,
Michael

Spiridonov 4th January 2011 07:50 PM

Quote:
"Actually these seem to be two different guns, and I'm not sure which one the scrolled and marked rear finial belongs to.

It is one gun.
Quote:
The one with the hook to me seems to have been made about ca. 1430-40 and it is very nice to see that it retains most of its original painted red lead (minimum) painted surface

I think too. But i think that pan was made later (about 1500 year)
Quote:
Could you please mail me the images in high resolution?

yes i will
Quote:
Anxiously waiting to see more of the museum's extended exhibition,

I have not made photos of new thing becaurse i was very hurryed but i whant to make this later.

Matchlock 5th January 2011 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov

I think too. But i think that pan was made later (about 1500 year)




You are perfectly right, I forgot to point that out. This pan may even have been added as late as the Thirty Years War (1618-1648).

What I feel is most striking: the various deeply struck marks in their armor shields on the rear finial of the long tang! :cool: :eek: I've never seen anything quite like that.

Best,
Michael

fernando 5th January 2011 04:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... What I feel is most striking: the various deeply struck marks in their armor shields on the rear finial of the long tang! :cool: :eek: I've never seen anything quite like that...

Yes; i haven't mentioned that in my previous post, but i was also most impressed with that detail.
Do you feel like digging on such particularity, Michl?

Matchlock 5th January 2011 04:57 PM

Oh yeah, 'Nando,

I dig such lovely details a whole lot! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael


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