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Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM
Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Very good Jeff, thank you very much. Jens . |
Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens! Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau? The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade! I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c. Jeff, Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base. Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations! All very best wishes, Jim . |
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Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM
Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim. Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given. I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands . All the Best Jeff . |
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Old 24th November 2007, 12:54 AM
Posted by: Don F. Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Greetings everyone, I found these swords that may fit into this forum nicely. I can�t give you any intellectual insights on any of these swords, but what I can give is, some pictures worth a thousand words each. Hope these will help in a small way, in your endeavors to understand early makers marks. The first sword may be a German export to Turkey; or not. The second one is an Arab Shamshir with either a locally made blade, or an import, or a battlefield pickup. Don�t know for sure. I know you will probably like this one. It has your running wolf mark. The last one is an English Mortuary sword with blade manufactured in Solingen. Lets run these babies up the flagpole and see if any body salutes. Ya, I know, I can�t believe I said that� Best regards everyone. Don F . |
Old 24th November 2007, 06:09 PM
Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification? What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin. Jeff . |
Old 24th November 2007, 07:30 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jeff, may i come in ? Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff D How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification? What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin. Jeff (Quote). Latin, no doubt! I guess it has no other conotation than that of its direct meaning. It appears in other than swords, even churches. Altough its correct use would be "somebody made me", it apparently appears with the wrong sequence, like "me fecit Solingen", potentialy meaning "made in Solingen" ... or "Solingen made me" Fernando . |
Old 25th November 2007, 12:57 AM
Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Quote: Originally Posted by fernando ^Hi Jeff, may i come in ? Latin, no doubt! I guess it has no other conotation than that of its direct meaning. It appears in other than swords, even churches. Altough its correct use would be "somebody made me", it apparently appears with the wrong sequence, like "me fecit Solingen", potentialy meaning "made in Solingen" ... or "Solingen made me" Fernando (Quote) Thanks Fernando, I guess 'sometimes a cigar is just a cigar'. I think I spent too much time in musty old books this week . All the Best Jeff . |
Old 25th November 2007, 12:25 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Jeff and Fernando, Jeff, good call on the ME FECIT SOLINGEN inscription, which typically was with a makers name, presumably at least. It seems that the catalogued items in the Wallace Collection carry a number of examples of this combination, the ones I found mostly 17th century rapiers. I think what is most interesting about these presumed Latin inscriptions is that the spellings, wording and syntax are typically somewhat inconsistant. Also the weapons carrying these blades in the period suggested are actually Italian, and while there are the discussed inscriptions such as one c.1650: PAVLLV WILLEMS ME FECIT SOLINGEN there are two others, both Italian rapiers with suggested Spanish blades: G.N.A.C.I.O.F.R.Z. IHN TOLEDO (c.1670) and IN.TOLEDO (c.1610) Having considered that Italy had primarily its own blade making centers, it seems interesting that these rapiers, all Italian, were mounted with what quite possibly were all German blades. Yet another Italian rapier c.1625, was mounted with a blade inscribed : FRIEDRICH MVNICH Conversely, a French, possibly Dutch 'pillow sword' had a blade inscribed: IN.VIENNA.MEI.FECIT Another: IHN.SOLLINGN Another with the a version of the famed name: ANDREA ME FECIT Italian c.1600 It would seem that even during these early times, the remarkable commercialization of German blades reveal many adaptions in the inscriptions placed on them. The variations of suggested places of manufacture were meant to appeal to apparantly clientele in a number of countries, and it seems the inscriptions are placed somewhat accordingly. The marketing acumen of this German industry seems amazing! I think the most interesting factor with these inscriptions is not only the varying combinations, but what seems to me to be transliteration and unusual spellings, especially with intermingled Latin. If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically, at least this was once suggested as I tried to learn more on the phrases. As you have noted, the sequence or syntax as with the ME FECIT wording may be off. Jeff, although using 'Occams cigar' as you noted often reveals nothing especially unusual....its always possible there is more to it than means the eye!! ....and you can NEVER spend too much time in musty old books!!!!but keep the cigar outa there!!! All the very best, Jim . |
Old 25th November 2007, 12:54 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically ... Jim (Quote) Unless a cigar is not just a cigar, i would say, in my empirical view, this phrase is well built and completely Spanish ... Castillian, to be precise. But as you very well know, they used it all over, as also Portuguese sword makers; sometimes well spelt, sometimes not. All the best Fernando . |
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Old 25th November 2007, 02:13 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal "Three in one" Speaking of multi marks, and orbes+crosses mentioned by Jeff. In this Portuguese specimen, we can find mottos, symbols and marks ... all for the price of one These "Sail" guard swords come right after the cup hilt examples depicted in "Armas e os Bar�es", by Eduardo Nobre. Maybe (some of) these are not trade marks, but maybe they still can fit in Fernando . |
Old 25th November 2007, 04:23 PM
Posted by: Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona I agree, 100% Spanish, Catillian, as Fernando says. The actual (by actual I mean modern) spelling would be : "No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor". From here, all the variations and ortographical creativity that you may imagine . |
Old 25th November 2007, 04:40 PM
Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Jim, I won't quote George Carlin's version of 'Occam's Cigar', suffice to say sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar . To further your obsrvation's I believe in past discussions E.B. Erickson has noted that most Hounslow hangers had imported ME FECIT SOLINGEN blades. Hi Marc and Fernando, Thanks for the clarification on the motto. I recently met someone of Scottish ancestry whose family motto was " NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON". He was very impressed when I showed him photo's of my baskethilt with the motto on it. He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile . All the Best Jeff . |
Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM
Posted by. fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff D ... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote) Small world . |
Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM
Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe There are several on Danish military white weapons from 1600 to about 1750, from then on they seem to be more royal markings. . |
Old 26th November 2007, 03:04 AM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Fernando, Thank you for posting this terrific 'sail' hilt and for again the great detail on the markings! I appreciate the data on the orb and cross and the cross of the Order of Aviz. I think it is interesting how the cross and orb and other forms of cross are often used at the beginning or terminus of fullers or to open and close inscriptions, almost like 'talismanic punctuation' ! Marc, its really good to see you here! I was hoping you might join in as your input here would really help with what we are trying to put together. I also appreciate you and Fernando confirming that the 'motto' is indeed in Spanish. Is the Castillian really much different than other dialects, and of course I understand that Portuguese has considerable differences. Jeff, JUDL! good runnin' with Carlin's cigar axiom!!! The Hounslow swords from England were indeed often marked with the ME FECIT SOLINGEN line typically along with the makers name, most notable Iohannes Hoppe. Some only carried the running wolf, and some of these instances carried into the later German enterprise at Shotley Bridge, but I dont think those used the ME FECIT. Eljay's knowledge on the 17th and 18th century European swords is outstanding to say the least! Jens, Thank you so much for adding the note on the Danish swords. Are the markings seen on these 17th to 18th century swords indicative of Solingen make similar to these ? There is so little discussed on the Danish weapons but they certainly must have used the German blades also. I wonder how many of these blades ended up in India with the trade factories established by Denmark there. All very best regards, Jim . |
Old 26th November 2007, 05:04 AM
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 A great reference book Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! . |
Old 26th November 2007, 11:46 AM
Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Hi Jim, In Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S. Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. Resume in German at the back of the book. Around 1600. In the fuller inlaid with copper ME FECIT SOLINGEN Around 1610. CLEMENS MEIGENN inlaid with copper. Around 1680. In each of the four fullers IHESUS inlaid with copper. Around 1700. Crescent and three stars on both sides. Around 1700. On both sides sun, crescent, stars and an arm with a sword. Around 1708. XX IN X MINI XX on both sides, in the fuller. On many of them you can see the king�s monogram and a crown as well. . |
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Old 26th November 2007, 12:25 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by freebooter Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! (Quote) But of course, Gavin! How was i so blind Although the work comprehends a study on Plug bayonets and their so called cuttlers, i guess most marking material is just the same, as also such makers come to be the same who made sword blades. As you say, there are zillions of marks on the ilustrated examples. It would be nice if you volunteer to scan some of them, specially those that appear to be common to the sword theme ... you were the one that came up first with the idea You have for instance a symbol that appears to be popular around, as it is shown in Italian and British examples: the anchor ... yes Jim, that's the name ( at least ) used by Evans. This is to coincide with the mark applied to a piece i was about to post here, after checking its viability with Jim. This because the piece is a sword stick, not so much apreciated by some, but with an interesting blade, which i will first let Jim to make his expertized coments about. If some further detail needed, i will secondarize with the respective info ... if i can This will confirm that the anchor symbol was assigned to several Masters as, besides Italian and British, it also appears in Portuguese blades ... or Spanish ... or both. Jim has comented that this symbol doesn't appear on the famous Tomas Ayala blades. In this case, the nice example i saw yesterday being discussed in a determined Forum ( i think i lost it ) was a fake ... which is quite frequent, although in this case the blade was very well forged, i would say worthy of a master. All the best. Fernando . |
Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to. He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book. Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!! Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ? I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers. Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark. Thank you so much guys for these latest entries! All best regards, Jim . |
Invisible posting
Old 26th November 2007, 06:40 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal We were warned by Dr. Lee Jones that, due to the recent spam measures, new member first postings would spend a couple days in quarantine, before they get visible in the respective thread. However it didn't occur (to me) that they keep their position in the posting sequence relative to the date they were emited. This is then why posting #44 has appeared today, but dated and positioned as from two days ago. Greetings to new member Don F., and thanks for the examples he has posted to enrich this theme. I am sure Jim will have a say at such pieces interest. Fernando . |
Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Don F. Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry. The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades. The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades. The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term. These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!! Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies. All very best regards, Jim . |
A nice anchor
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, . Perfect, isn't it? ( I hope i am not exagerating ) Fernando . |
Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 PM
Posted by: S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Thanks Jim and all other guys for this rich thread, definetly deserves being a sticky. . |
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Old 26th November 2007, 09:41 PM
Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Fernando, Thanks for posting the 'anchor' this is the symbol I was alluding to before and it reminded me that it was on LEW's kaskara (not nimcha). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sudan+german In the process of trying to find LEW's kaskara I found Jim's four crosses thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=nimcha+german I will see what I can find on them now that I know what to look for. Thanks and welcome Don F. That mort is exactly what i was talking about with Hounslow hilts with German blades. Good Stuff Jeff . |
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Old 26th November 2007, 10:22 PM
Posted by. Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Outstanding responses guys, and now we are rollin' !!! Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links. S.Al Anizi, thank you so much for the kind words and acknowledging the thread, which is developing just as I had hoped to prove a valuable resource for us all. I hope everyone is noting and reviewing the thread as we go as when a thread becomes multipaged it is often easy to miss important posts, just as I did with Don's significant contribution. Jeff, thank you for finding the crosses! The three crosses I saw were linear, and as noted on one of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas. These crosses 'pattee' are in an interesting configuration, and seem in a cross pattern itself. We do know that the four cardinal directions were key in folk religion, and again, we wonder if the duplicity here is intended to compound the potential talismanic potency. Thank you guys! All best regards, Jim . |
Old 26th November 2007, 10:37 PM
Posrted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada More on the Orb and Cross. This is from Gyngell's Armourers Marks Pg30 Jeff . |
Old 26th November 2007, 10:47 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall ... Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links ... Jim (Quote) A great anchor allright, and Jeff has just found out where i got it from . I have completely forgotten i picked it from this very Forum, it is on Lew's kaskara. I must have saved the picture when i was searching on the anchor symbol, as familiar to the one struck on the sword cane of my posting #58. But you will see this "robbery" was well intentioned. We say over here that you catch a liar faster than you catch a cripple . Sorry Lew, for the hijacking. But it's all because it's a great anchor. Fernando . |
Plug Bayonets
Old 28th November 2007, 08:32 AM
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 I will help regarding this book but I am afraid it will have to wait until the silly season has passed. I will see if I can dig up Mr Evan's email address and perhaps he will have something on file he can share with us all rather than all the scans. I do remember my last correspondence was a few years ago just after he sold his collection in preparation of putting together another book on miniature swords if I remember correctly. All for now.....a great read so far guys keep is coming...I also want to add there is a running wolf found in a few places on a blade made by Johannis Brach for King George II, it appears in between his first and last name on both sides of the blade in the fullers, there are several other marks being a cross struck 3 times with a letter "S" and unicorn struck twice too. The rest of the blade is etched with a calendar. Those of you in England may well have seen this sword on display in the tower of London collection.... Regards Gavin . |
Old 28th November 2007, 06:51 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Jeff, thanks again for the additional cross and orbs. I'd like to work some more on these, and it seems that in Wagner, he notes these were used to enclose names, inscriptions etc. by being placed at beginning and end. Perhaps the 'four crosses' were used in the same manner on the nimcha posted. Fernando, thank you for your gentlemanly concern on what might have been considered infringement, but I think not the case. well handled and I hope we can work more on these 'anchors' which clearly were used considerably on Spanish blades and German made blades purported to be. I am wondering if these appeared on other blades, English, Italian? Gavin, the sword you mention by Johannes Brach, was Brach one of the Hounslow smiths or was he actually working in Solingen? I am of course very interested in the three crosses and 'S' markings. The calendar would seem to imply this might have been a hunting sword ? as auspicious days (Saints days) were important to observe in hunting etc. at least this is as described in Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons"). I see you also had communications with Mr. Evans as I mentioned I had earlier and I also wonder how he is doing with the miniature weapons, which he was intrigued with when I last heard from himsome years ago. I have sent him an email (which I hope is still correct) and am hoping for his response. I am wondering if we might start to examine the well known 'sickle' or 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoa, later Styria, Solingen and the Caucasian 'Gurda' blades. Any thoughts on what this paired, toothed or ribbed half circles mark might represent? each of the semi-circles is terminated with three dots typically, the Trinity? the numeric three seems extremely important and consistantly employed in various markings and repitition of them. On another thread, David has posted a well weathered 'firangi' which he has obtained, which is remarkable in that it is still in original mountings and holds a rapier blade. This is an important item as it illustrates how the markings on these early blades, even rapier blades, are often key in researching many forms of ethnographic weapons. With all best regards, and thanks for these contribitions guys! Jim . |
Johannis Brach
Old 28th November 2007, 08:53 PM
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Hi Jeff, The paragraph in the "Treasues of the Tower of London", page 51, reads.. A number of old swordsmiths named Johannis Brach are recorded in Solingen at different times. Two other signatures, that of Jan and Arnoldt, are recorded with the unicorn walking along. As for a hunting sword...maybe, maybe not, it has been shortened at some time in it's life and remains at healthy 41.2" with a blade length of 35.2". It appears though, that he may have used this in his charge at Oudenarde in 1708. The blade is dated to approx 1700. There is further reference made regarding literature; Duffy & Borg, European swords and daggers in the Tower of London, p33, pl.92a.(IX1243). Hope this helps some Also on page 79 of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham's Illustrated catalog of civil war military goods there is a great page of 6 images of Solingen and Damascus unfitted blades that where available to soldiers during the war. regards Gavin . |
Still with the anchor
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Old 28th November 2007, 09:17 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, This is something for you to digest and figure out. It seems as the anchor symbol appears both as a mark and as a decoration. We can see in Evans work that the anchor was assigned to British cuttler (?) William Justice in 1664, but he also pretends that this symbol, struck in Italian blades, also shown in the book, was merely a decoration. Needless to say we are navigating in strange waters, as his business is bayonets and the makers he quotes are cuttlers ... whatever that means, for the case. I am posting pictures of an anchor punction on a Tomas Aiala ( not Ayala) sword, which i mentioned the other day, as well as the pages referring Evans material on both anchor mark and decoration. All the best Fernando - |
Anchor
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Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 PM
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 I too think it might just be decoration, here are a few images of a gorgeous blade I saw a few years ago, Spanish, the style was the 1728 cavalry sword pattern but of the highest quality I have ever seen. If you look close at the first image you will see it is not symetrical, there is a cirle on one side of the base of the anchor and a cresent the other, anchor aside, does this represent day and night? Great work Fernando. regards Gavin . |
Old 29th November 2007, 12:55 AM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Gavin, thank you so much for answering my question on the sword cutler Brach, and for posting that remarkable sword...nicely referenced! and it is interesting to know about the Solingen marks in the Civil War book. It is interesting that most of the first issue of the M1840 "Wristbreaker" were produced in Solingen before Ames picked up the contract. On the King George sword, it would seem the blade is a bit long for a hunting sword, but the auspicious significance extended to warfare as well in the astrological sense. Excellent deduction on noting the presence of crescent moon and sun on either side of this fascinating decoration or marking. The symbolism of these two figures is of course present in many variations on European blades, and the talismanic implication seems quite plausible though can only be speculated upon. While decoration can easily be assumed to be intended only aesthetically, I feel that the ever present superstition, even though only accepted nominally, still had a great degree of serious consideration. Even in present times, soldiers will apply great attention to good luck charms and many forms of talismanically intended measures. Fernando, you continually amaze me with the beautifully done graphics you post and the way you highlight key passages and key in on markings!! Thank you for always adding such great presentation. The material in Evans book tells me I desperately need to get hold of my copy!!! Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. It seems there was some clarity issues on the use of these 'anchors' by makers in quite different centers as well. There was such intense competition between all of these blade centers, trying to define exactly who used which marks is going to be very difficult, but I think we have a running start! All very best regards, Jim . |
Old 29th November 2007, 02:21 AM
Posted by: Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Jim I am amazed by this thread and thank you and the many knowledgable contributors for it. I do not mean to intrude ,but with such a wealth of knowledgable folks regarding marks,I wondered if perhaps the mystery on this one could be solved as I have searched far and wide You might remember it Again Thank You and the others for such a great thread and the information made available throughout this entire site . |
Old 29th November 2007, 02:34 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Alan, Thank you so much for the very kind words and posting your sword blade with the interesting marks. This is exactly the kind of response and participation I had hoped for with this thread, where all of us can share information, display examples and develop what I am convinced will become a valuable resource that will be available to all of us. I am hoping that those with access to the reference compendiums on markings might be able to locate this marking. I would suggest, without access to references, that the marking represents a bird in flight. This symbol is known to have been used in variation with certain religious connotation, which of course is as we have discussed, often the basis for many of these markings and phrases. With that said, I am hoping others might either note instances where this marking has appeared, or locate the mark associated with particular maker in the references. The diagonally striated panel at the forte is very familiar and while I cannot place the decoration at the moment, I do suspect it was an 18th century affectation. Would it be possible to see the entire sword?, as this is important as well to identify the region and period in which it was mounted. Thank you so much Alan! All very best regards, Jim . |
Old 29th November 2007, 05:30 PM
Posted by: Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Hi Jim and Thank you again I will post a pic of the entire sword It is one that you and I discussed about a year ago I also hope that perhaps someone will recognize and Id the diagonal pattern Thanks Again . |
Old 29th November 2007, 07:01 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Alan, Two beautiful sabres!!! Thank you for showing them in full. I honestly cannot recall the details of previous discussion on the sabre at the top that we are discussing though it does seem familiar. This sword type is basically the English officers backsword/straight sabre known as the 'spadroon'. These were popular from about 1780 until roughly 1820, and are typically characterized by the five beads or balls on the crossguard and knucklebow. While it seems that the style originated in England, it apparantly was loosely adopted in France and in America during the Federal period. The hilt on yours is quite atypical of those seen on the English spadroons, and the crosshatching on the grip seems to reflect either Polish or French influence. The karabela form pommel portion of the grip suggests the beloved Polish sabres, and Eastern European cavalry fashions profoundly were influencing Continental and English military at the end of the 18th century. The interesting decorated square panel at the forte also seems to appear on a number of French sword blades of the late 18th century, as well as seen on Polish blades of much earlier. I still have not located the diagonally striated square panel as appears on yours, but seems to correspond stylistically to those I have mentioned. It would seem your straight sabre/spadroon might well be an English officers of about 1780-90, as these officers were often highly motivated by Continental military fashion. This is of course well illustrated by the styles and weaponry adopted particularly in cavalry regiments in the latter 18th century. While the identification doesnt really help much with the marking, I just wanted the sword type and period defined to hopefully put more direction to possibilities on the marking. C'mon guys...we need the markings books!!! All the best, Jim The second sabre is a Napoleonic period yeomanry officers sabre, again, with the ivory grips reflecting the influence of many Polish cavalry sabres. . |
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Old 29th November 2007, 07:52 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. Jim (Quote) No, i wasn't correcting you at all ... on the contrary That was precisely to remind that, the name of Ayala spelt that way, is a sign that the piece, despite its apparent quality, was not his procuction. Not that the anchor doesn't appear in Spanish swords. I was browsing the Net on Master Ayala and found a very interesting site, http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp from where i brought the attached illustration, where we can see a brass sail hilt Dragoon sword, made in Barcelona by Magi Closas ( 1760-1780 ). The article author fully characterizes the marks ... the allusion to the King and to the Regiment, Closas punction, as well as the arrow, the symbol of Barcelona dagger smiths Guild since the 17th century, but it pays no attention to the anchor, as if this were a secondary detail, like a decoration. It is yet to be known whether this is an esoteric symbol, a religious one, or just a decoration hybrid. Fernando . |
The Anchor
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Old 29th November 2007, 08:11 PM
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 It is my guess it is a religious one from all that I have read since this posting was started. I have few more links to get through and then I shall show several different styles of anchors and crosses that we have all seen and will attach the acompanying texts to further support this. I have also attached below an excavated rapier with the running wolf symbol and DOMINI that has been covered so far in the discussion. It came out of the Danube many years ago. regards Gav . |
Old 30th November 2007, 02:10 AM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Ahah! Fernando..........that makes sense, the misspelling suggests the work of somebody else...i.e. Solingen! I read somewhere also that some of these crafty German workers even produced some less than standard pieces and deliberately placed spurious famed Spanish names on them to discredit the product. That claim seems dubious though, as I have not yet seen any substandard blades from either of these competing markets and frankly by the end of the 16th century, Toledo was little competition as its sword production had diminished dramatically. Interesting on the arrow of the Barcelona smiths guild. I always wonder how a particular symbol was selected as the mark for each guild or maker. I tried to use that link but didnt find the Closas reference. It is indeed interesting that the anchor is not considered worthy of note. I think that to determine more on the imbued meaning associated with these particular items of motif, we need to discover consistancies that occur with certain makers blades. Since these characteristically have differences from subtle to pronounced, we can presume symbolism is present, and since religious symbolism is known to often include talismanic esoterica in these times, the meanings can only be imagined. To the uninitiated, these would represent only flourished motif, but to the client who carried the sword with his life in the balance, the deep symbolism was likely pronounced. I think the anchors, cross and orb were intended to talismanically punctuate and emphasize the marks, names or inscriptions they appear with. Thank you very much Fernando, excellent post as always! In the exotic places that those who carried these weapons went with trade and often campaign, the native people became well aware of the deep pride and confidence with which they were regarded. Naturally they presumed that the blades of these weapons would give them equal power in thiers. What is most interesting is how the commonly reproduced markings on native blades were chosen above others. There were so many markings on many European blades, yet there is such a select group chosen; the sickle marks, the moons, Andrea Ferara, et al. In most cases the blades found with many unusual markings are the European produced blades. Gav, there you go! Nice photos and very nice rapier. You guys are really putting in terrific examples here! I am really looking forward to the anchors and crosses you describe and as noted, this will help us find some recurrent forms hopefully. Thank you again for posting this and for helping us with compiling this thread. With all very best regards, Jim . |
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