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-   -   Malela luk 5 for comment.. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6409)

zartane 15th May 2008 07:45 AM

Malela luk 5 for comment..
 
6 Attachment(s)
a malela luk 5 with pamor i think.. any comments?? :D

PenangsangII 16th May 2008 07:04 AM

IMO, the iron used is called "besi Malela" that originates from beach sand. I dont think the keris is pamored.

David 16th May 2008 03:47 PM

I agree that this probably isn't pamor that you are seeing. I think it might just be the layers of the blade revealed from years of cleanings.
Is it just the photos or does the gonjo look like different metal which isn't nearly as eroded. I wonder if it is a replacement. :)
Either way, a nice keris. :)

Battara 17th May 2008 06:34 PM

Blade almost looks Javanese made! :eek:

parong sari 18th May 2008 11:47 PM

this is a rare malela wich i say because the layer of the blade is not of aging, years of cleaning nor it is a pamor.. this blade has a "miang perak", which means the metal was forge with silver in a way that the result is as what we see in the pics.. :)

PenangsangII 20th May 2008 03:35 AM

And the ganja wulung type reminds me of bapak Ganjawulung.... Long time no hear Pak Ganja.....

A. G. Maisey 20th May 2008 08:06 AM

It is always quite difficult to comment on material from a photo. You really need to touch it, and turn the blade all around so that you can see exactly what the smith was doing when he forged it. However, based on what I can see in the photo, and assuming that an all-round inspection would not deliver any surprises, my guess is that a piece of very fibrous wrought iron has been welded with one or more other types of wrought iron to provide sufficient material to forge a blade without a core. I'd say that when the smith was finished he was probably a bit disappointed with the result, because instead of getting a blade with a nice consistent quality throughout, the fibrous iron had surfaced in a number of places, even on the edges, where it would most definitely not have been wanted.

Yes, to a present day collector this is an unusual blade and to a present day collector that probably makes it somewhat desirable, however, from the point of view of quality of fabrication, I'm afraid this blade just doesn't make it.

It is definitely not a Javanese blade.

David 20th May 2008 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by parong sari
this is a rare malela wich i say because the layer of the blade is not of aging, years of cleaning nor it is a pamor.. this blade has a "miang perak", which means the metal was forge with silver in a way that the result is as what we see in the pics.. :)

Sorry for missing your first post and not welcoming you to the forum Parong Sari.
On what do you base your assertion that this blade is forged with silver? It doesn't seem clear from the pictures. Have you handled this keris? :shrug:

Alam Shah 21st May 2008 01:13 AM

A single line description of the piece would be,
Keris Malela Terengganu, Luk 5, Miang Perak... ;)

Imho, besi malela when mixed with miang perak, weakens the structure of the blade. With the architecture of the malela's fullers, the blade strength weakens. You'll still get a lightweight blade... but.

Although unique, this is not a common practice for malela blade, afaik.
For malela blades, the metal is more 'compacted', thus enhancing its strength. Newer pieces tend to be nicely sculpted but the material, less compact.

PenangsangII 21st May 2008 01:53 AM

I always thought besi malela (not keris malela) is the type of iron that had a lot of impurities i.e. crystalite or sylvery looks, and considered as less preferrable choice in making keris.

Alam Shah 21st May 2008 02:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
I always thought besi malela (not keris malela) is the type of iron that had a lot of impurities i.e. crystalite or sylvery looks, and considered as less preferrable choice in making keris.
In Javanese and Malay context, it is different... refer to Northern Malay pandai besi.

Miang perak from pasir malela is different from besi malela in the peninsula context, afaik. ;)

PenangsangII 21st May 2008 09:58 AM

Thx Alam Shah.

BTW, would it be possible that the outer layer of this keris is actually besi pasir malela and the core is besi baja similar to the ganja part?

zartane 25th May 2008 02:41 AM

thanks for the comments.. :D

parong sari 27th May 2008 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
It is always quite difficult to comment on material from a photo. You really need to touch it, and turn the blade all around so that you can see exactly what the smith was doing when he forged it. However, based on what I can see in the photo, and assuming that an all-round inspection would not deliver any surprises, my guess is that a piece of very fibrous wrought iron has been welded with one or more other types of wrought iron to provide sufficient material to forge a blade without a core. I'd say that when the smith was finished he was probably a bit disappointed with the result, because instead of getting a blade with a nice consistent quality throughout, the fibrous iron had surfaced in a number of places, even on the edges, where it would most definitely not have been wanted.

Yes, to a present day collector this is an unusual blade and to a present day collector that probably makes it somewhat desirable, however, from the point of view of quality of fabrication, I'm afraid this blade just doesn't make it.

It is definitely not a Javanese blade.


ofcourse this is not one of those 'javanese' blades that are forged NOT for fighting purposes but FOR display only.. that is the main difference between kerises from indonesian region and malaysian region.. just imagin some group of gunsmiths making pistols which is not for firing purposes, would they know what is really good for making a good pistol? maybe the can do some fancy design but i don't think they have any clue about persicions? :confused:

so no offence, after going through this forum, most of you guys only have knowledge about kerises from indonesia but i think you guys are clueless on when it comes to malaysian kerises.. which definately means none of you guys know on how to use it, or even the techniques of holding it, far more from learning the art of keris.. in the old days, kerises were not judge by the material or pamour, and not even the misticism behind it, but by the practicality and suitiblity to the owner. but YES, to a present day collector the pamor, design and solidness that matters.. :rolleyes:

and judging a keris by the molecular structure and saying it is not solid enough is the most ridicoulus thing i ever heard.. for instance, if you say this malela is not strong enough, let me thrust it to your belly button.. my point is don't judge a keris by its solidness because it is not forged to be used like a samurai or a sword where one uses it to block other weapons attack, because it doesn't!!

no offence again, but this is just my opinion after teaching silat and the art of kerises for twenty years.. and i personally don't favour kerises which are not forged for fighting.. :shrug: hey, what's the point of having one then?? for collection maybe?? ;)

A. G. Maisey 27th May 2008 11:30 AM

What a charming and informative post Parong Sari!

Regrettably the point of exactly what you are trying to tell us has escaped me.

Since you have taken the liberty of quoting my post in full, I assume that what you have written has something to do with what I wrote.

May I be so bold as to request that you expand upon your remarks a little so that there can be no possible error in the understanding of the point that you are attempting to make?

Thank you so much for your cooperation.

David 27th May 2008 01:37 PM

hmmm....charming you say Alan? I've got another word for it. :rolleyes:
Well, first of all parong sari, i would strongly suggest you spend just a little more time "going through this forum". If you really had you might have discovered that we have quite a few members who not only specialize in Malaysian keris, but actually live there. You might also spend a little more time studying Indonesian keris as i think you have a few misconceptions about them as well. Keris that were made with talismanic purpose in mind were certainly not meant for display only. In fact, these keris weren't made to be shown about at all. They are a private matter. And many Indo keris were indeed made for fighting. If you have any doubts about that i have a few Jawa and Bali keris that i could "thrust into your belly button" as well if that's what it takes to prove a point. :rolleyes: :)
I too am curious about the actual point of your post. I asked you some direct questions earlier in this thread after welcoming you to this forum which you have yet seen fit to answer. Do you have some personal stake in this keris?
Obviously there was much that your silat teachers failed to teach you, not just about keris but also about respect. And if the only purpose that you can see for the keris is as a means to do physical harm to another being then i think you missed some major points in your lesson plan on the art of keris. :)

parong sari 27th May 2008 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
hmmm....charming you say Alan? I've got another word for it. :rolleyes:
Well, first of all parong sari, i would strongly suggest you spend just a little more time "going through this forum". If you really had you might have discovered that we have quite a few members who not only specialize in Malaysian keris, but actually live there. You might also spend a little more time studying Indonesian keris as i think you have a few misconceptions about them as well. Keris that were made with talismanic purpose in mind were certainly not meant for display only. In fact, these keris weren't made to be shown about at all. They are a private matter. And many Indo keris were indeed made for fighting. If you have any doubts about that i have a few Jawa and Bali keris that i could "thrust into your belly button". :rolleyes: :)
I too am curious about the point of your post. I asked you some direct questions earlier in this thread after welcoming you to this forum which you have yet to answer. Do you have some personal stake in this keris?
Obviously there was much that your silat teachers failed to teach you, not just about keris but also about respect. And if the only purpose that you can see for the keris is as a means to do physical harm to another being then i think you missed some major points in your lesson plan on the art of keris. :)


if you talk about talismanic purposes, in indonesia my friend, they don't only use kerises as an object, even nails are made being a talismanic object.. nothing special about that because if you are entering a discussion in the realm of misticsism, then i guess i'm sure that you are aware of the mystical power of "besi kuning", "Besi Badal" or "Besi Leleh" used for making a powerful talismatic keris.. i don't think i saw any of that "talismatic" keris is this forum..

Silat or pencak is the form of martial arts practiced in the indo-malay archipelago, and you will never see a pencak master in indonesia using a keris as a weapon!! you could even check in competition events where indonesian athletes are favour of using "parang" (which is most likely there official weapon) or try watching old indonesian silat movies.. my encounters with their guru even said that keris is not used for fighting but rather as a status, symbol, culture, bla..bla..bla.. which means they are NOT meant for fighting.. why have a keris when you don't know how to use them?? it's not about doing major harm but more on what intention you want to use it for, either to attack or counter attact..

i don't have any interest in this keris, it's just that i've been following this forum for quite a long time and suddenly had something to say.. and keris is not about respect my friend, it's a matter of life and death.. its a WEAPON, and in the old days, you only GET respect if you are a master in USING a keris, not by owning them.. and only because some people don't know how to use it, then go ahead, make it for display or 'talsimatic" it, that is if your guru taught you how to do it..

sorry for the rude introduction but for a little info, i'm from a little state in malaysia called perak..

p/s: you could try thrusting your baliness or javanese keris to my belly button, but like i said, if you don't know the art of keris then i can guarantee you it will only go through the belly button of the owner.. :eek:

Raden Usman Djogja 27th May 2008 04:46 PM

Does anybody have information that there is a prominent Indo-Malay GURU of SILAT who does not have a keris?

David 27th May 2008 06:29 PM

Firstly Parong, everybody here gets respected, whether they are a master of using the keris as a weapon or not. I suggest you get agrasp of that or your stay here will be regrettably short. ;)
I certainly agree with you that keris martial arts are not generally taught in Indonesian schools of silat. This does not, however, indicate that Indo keris were never used as weapons, that they weren't originally created to be a weapon. The keris in these area did evolve into more of a status and talismanic weapon, especially in Jawa. Other islands such as Bali and Sulawesi certainly used keris as a weapon much closer to the present. I have many examples that i assure you are weapon-ready. The history of the keris is not necessarily what your silat instructors have taught you. They have taught you what the keris in these regions have become, not what they were or what their original intention was.
You are also just a bit assuming that there are no silat students among the membership here. I can assure you that there are. I am sure most of the collectors here are familar with the proper grip for a keris and a few are also familiar with how to use them. However, this is not a silat board. This is a forum for collectors. If you have a problem with that, please move on. Please do not continue to further disrespect the members of this board with your admittedly rude manner. You are welcome to disagree with anyone's viewpoint, but in a civil and respectful way.

Jussi M. 27th May 2008 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by parong sari
none of you guys know on how to use it, or even the techniques of holding it, far more from learning the art of keris.. (...) this is just my opinion after teaching silat and the art of kerises for twenty years...


Quote:
Originally Posted by parong sari
i don't have any interest in this keris, it's just that i've been following this forum for quite a long time and suddenly had something to say..

p/s: you could try thrusting your baliness or javanese keris to my belly button, but like i said, if you don't know the art of keris then i can guarantee you it will only go through the belly button of the owner.. :eek:


Wow!

A silat master identifies himself after less posts there are fingers on a hand. Well, being a complete newbie myself on this forum I dont have anything to loose so I want to participate too. There is an old saying that the empty drum makes the loudest noise. For being a senior silat practitioner as you say and a Guru your practice of adat and hormat seem a bit odd to me but who am I to judge other people. Nevertheless your interpretation is refreshingly modern and I wish you the best of luck on your chosen path. You students must be lucky to have such a teacher! Maybe you could please educate us a bit more on your style and its methodology regarding the use of the keris?

A. G. Maisey 27th May 2008 10:54 PM

David, please be kind to Porong Sari.

Are we harsh with children when they display their lack of knowledge?

No, of course not, we encourage them to learn. Encouragement is the father of knowledge.

However, by the same token, children often have much to teach us, because they see the world in a different way to the way in which we see it.

A child's perspective is much more limited, and from a lower position, thus he sees things in a different way, and can perhaps understand more of what can be seen from that lower perspective than we are able to understand.

We are all here to learn.

I, for one, welcome Porong Sari's refreshingly naive approach to the keris, and look forward to learning much from his future contributions to our discussions.

Whilst we learn from his immense knowledge of the world which he can see, he may be prepared to learn a little of the world to which we have access.

David 27th May 2008 11:27 PM

True, true Alan....you live and learn. :)

A. G. Maisey 27th May 2008 11:49 PM

As do we all David.

PenangsangII 29th May 2008 11:57 AM

Mr ParongSari,

From which part you come from Parong Sari? Perak is not that small in Malysian context the last time I was there ;)

There's no doubt that even in Indonesia those days (during Singhasari & Majapahit eras to be exact) that keris was indeed used as a weapon. Otherwise, the story of Mpu Gandring, Ken Arok & Tunggul Ametung is well....just a myth :(

And even your nick name, "Parong Sari" suggests that it's a dapor of keris from Tanah Jawa. Or maybe you are referring to the other keris used by Hang Tuah in the duel with Hang Jebat. Please take note that even that particular parong sari was made in Majapahit, though not as powerful as taming sari that also happened to be made in Majapahit.

You also might be surprised that the pride of fighting Malay Keris - the pandai saras was actually originated from Tanah Jawa.

Anyway, I am glad that you took the trouble to post in this forum - the more, the merrier.

Penangsang

p/s: ParongSari, what style of silat that you teach, if you dont mind letting us know. TQ.

A. G. Maisey 29th May 2008 12:21 PM

Penangsang, you have made some valid points, but let's not push Pak Parong too hard.

The name he has chosen is already a heavy load for him to carry.

You see, the correct transliteration of that dhapur is "parung sari".

Do you speak Javanese Penangsang?

If so, you will understand that one of the ways in which "parung" can be understood is "jurang".

Need I say any more?

Be kind to Pak Parong--- or should that be Pak Porong? To be honest, I'm a little confused .

PenangsangII 30th May 2008 01:31 AM

Alan, I was actually being nice to my fellow countryman :D

I speak Jawanese, but mostly ngoko, and very little kromo.

To my friend ParongSari, please go thru some of the early topics in the warung kopi, and if possible try to dig up more informative posts in the archive. I recommend you search the topics related to fighting with keris, and I believe we have a few, then you will get a better understanding of what a keris Jawa means to a Jawanese as far as fighting is concerned. Also, there are plenty of posts regarding Malay keris philosophy.

Happy reading! :)

parong sari 30th May 2008 05:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
Mr ParongSari,

From which part you come from Parong Sari? Perak is not that small in Malysian context the last time I was there ;)

There's no doubt that even in Indonesia those days (during Singhasari & Majapahit eras to be exact) that keris was indeed used as a weapon. Otherwise, the story of Mpu Gandring, Ken Arok & Tunggul Ametung is well....just a myth :(

And even your nick name, "Parong Sari" suggests that it's a dapor of keris from Tanah Jawa. Or maybe you are referring to the other keris used by Hang Tuah in the duel with Hang Jebat. Please take note that even that particular parong sari was made in Majapahit, though not as powerful as taming sari that also happened to be made in Majapahit.

You also might be surprised that the pride of fighting Malay Keris - the pandai saras was actually originated from Tanah Jawa.

Anyway, I am glad that you took the trouble to post in this forum - the more, the merrier.

Penangsang

p/s: ParongSari, what style of silat that you teach, if you dont mind letting us know. TQ.


No doubt both parong sari and tameng sari was made in Majapahit, but the fact that they both fell in the hands of hang tuah is because the art of fighting using a keris.. the tameng sari was killed by his own keris.. (that's what happen when you try to thrust someone's belly button without knowing the art of using a keris). the legend continues since then the people of indonesian lost their confidence in using keris as a weapon and preferred other weapons as an alternative.. :D

i'm not saying that javanese or any other indonesian kerises are not good, but most of them aren't made for fighting.. and don't judge a keris by it's composition of steel or the pamor and say that its not fit enough to be a keris because malaysian keris were forged to kill.. just a matter of using them or not.. i'm not offended because i have any interest in this keris but because it's a malay keris and by my observation, this keris is the right type for a duel and should earn some respect even it is not as fancy as javanese keris which is for display..

Has anyone of you forumers use your beloved keris for fighting practices or something?? don't see any hands up which i guess they are only for viewing pleasure only.. :shrug:

p/s: dosen't really matter how i spell parong or parung, tameng or taming, it's the pronunciation that counts my friend.. :confused:

A. G. Maisey 30th May 2008 08:19 AM

Parong Sari, I assume you have addressed your comment on the spelling of "parung" to me, so I shall respond.

You are of course correct in that it is pronunciation that is important, however, this romanisation of the original Javanese script is given in Jawa as "parung". In Malaysia it seems that it is usually given as "parong". These two words have a totally different sound, and in the Malay language, as far as I have been able to ascertain, the word "parong" is unknown and has no meaning. In Jawa the word in its original and correct transliteration has a very definite meaning.

This confusion would seem to indicate that when the romanisation of the original Javanese script was found necessary in Malay, the result was influenced by the accent of a speaker.

Parong Sari, I have no doubt that in Malaysia this spelling is understood, but since we are talking about a dhapur that is originally Javanese, it is clear that the Malay transliteration is incorrect, resulting in a word which has no meaning.

In an earlier post I remarked that I was looking forward to learning much from you, because of your unique perspective of the world of the keris.

I find that already you are making a lasting impression on my evaluation of your knowledge.

Thank for this clarification of your erudition.

If you care to expand your knowledge of the Javanese keris as weapon, perhaps a reading of "War, Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726"--M.C. Ricklefs might be of value to you.

PenangsangII 30th May 2008 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by parong sari
No doubt both parong sari and tameng sari was made in Majapahit, but the fact that they both fell in the hands of hang tuah is because the art of fighting using a keris.. the tameng sari was killed by his own keris.. (that's what happen when you try to thrust someone's belly button without knowing the art of using a keris). the legend continues since then the people of indonesian lost their confidence in using keris as a weapon and preferred other weapons as an alternative.. :D

i'm not saying that javanese or any other indonesian kerises are not good, but most of them aren't made for fighting.. and don't judge a keris by it's composition of steel or the pamor and say that its not fit enough to be a keris because malaysian keris were forged to kill.. just a matter of using them or not.. i'm not offended because i have any interest in this keris but because it's a malay keris and by my observation, this keris is the right type for a duel and should earn some respect even it is not as fancy as javanese keris which is for display..

Has anyone of you forumers use your beloved keris for fighting practices or something?? don't see any hands up which i guess they are only for viewing pleasure only.. :shrug:

p/s: dosen't really matter how i spell parong or parung, tameng or taming, it's the pronunciation that counts my friend.. :confused:


Mr ParongSari or rather ParungSari,

How on earth did you know that none of us here practise silat that has keris syllabus in it. I suggest that you dig deeper in the older threads right here in Warung Kopi to find out who among the forumers actually use keris in silat :rolleyes:

samajadi 30th May 2008 02:13 PM

ok guys.. thanks.. can we focus on my malela now..


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