LIVING UP TO ACADEMIC STANDARDS
 

MATCHLOCK BROUGHT UP THE QUESTION OF MEETING ACADEMIC STANDARDS IN A POST IN THE EUROPEAN WEAPONS FORUM.
THIS IS AS GOOD A PLACE TO EXPRESS OUR VIEWS AND SEE WHAT THE MODERATORS AND MEMBERS VIEWS ARE.
MY VIEW IS " HERE WE GO! :rolleyes: )
WE ARE AN INTERNATIONAL COMUNITY WITH LIKE INTRESTS AND WITH VARYING DEGREES OF EXPERTESE. THE TRUE ACADEMIC PROFESSIONALS ARE FEW IN OUR RANKS AND MOST OF US ARE EITHER BEGINNERS OR OLD HANDS AT COLLECTING "GAGA ABOUT ARMS" :D
THE QUESTION IS IF THERE WERE NO AMATEURS AND BEGINNERS WHO COLLECT WHO WOULD CARE TO BUY NEW BOOKS OR LOOK AT MUSEUM EXHIBITS? THE NUMBER OF TRUE PUBLISHED ACADEMICS WITH ALL THE HIGH ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS ARE FEW. IF THESE FORUMS DEPENDED ON THEIR IMPUT ONLY IT WOULD SOON BE A DEAD DUCK. :eek:
I DO APPRECIATE A WELL WRITTEN, COMPREHENSIVE POST WITH GOOD REFRENCES, PICTURES AND LEARN A LOT FROM SUCH POSTS. I ALSO ENJOY POSTS FROM WHAT SOME REFER TO AS A NEWBIE AND SOMETIMES LEARN EVEN FROM SUCH POSTS EVEN IF IT IS JUST REMEMBERING SOMETHING I HAD FORGOTTEN LONG AGO. :rolleyes:
AS TO WHAT STANDARD THE FORUMS SHOULD TRY TO ACHIVE? I THINK THIS IS A PLACE WHERE ALL STANDARDS CAN BE EXPRESSED FROM THE MOST QUALIFIED AND KNOWLEGABLE TO THE LEAST OF THE COLLECTING COMUNITY.
MY POOR EFFORTS DON'T MEET VERY HIGH ACADEMIC STANDARDS BUT I TRY TO GATHER LIKE MATERIAL AND INFORMATION (SUCH AS IT IS) INTO ONE POST FOR EASY ACCESS AND REFRENCE OR JUST TO POST SOMETHING INTERESTING OR FUN.
JUST THINK IF ALL THE DEALERS AND AUCTION HOUSES HAD SAVED ALL THE PICTURES AND INFORMATION OVER THE YEARS FOR REFRENCE. THINK ALSO OF ALL THE OLD COLLECTORS WHO ARE NOW GONE AND THE LOSS OF INFORMATION AND KNOWLEGE ALL GONE FOREVER.
THESE FORUMS GIVE THOSE OF US WHO ARE INTERESTED A PLACE TO DEPOSIT WHAT INFORMATION WE HAVE BE IT LITTLE OR GREAT BEFORE IT IS LOST. IT MAY NOT BE WELL ORGANIZED OR MEET HIGH STANDARDS BUT AT LEAST IT WILL HOPEFULLY SURVIVE AND NOT BE LOST TO THOSE WHO MAY BE INTERESTED IN THE FUTURE BE THEY PROFESSOR OR BEGINNING STUDENT.

Thanks for the post. Good food for thought. The forum should be always be a welcome place for all :)

ditto... :)

Salaams VANDOO ~ Your thread is thought provoking and interesting as always. Matchlocks knowledge is probably on par with most Doctorates as is the expertise of many of our " Professors (" WITHOUT PORTFOLIOs !!)

I am a strong advocate of enhancing the forums ability along the lines of certification for the various studies of "Ethnographic Arms and Armour" up to degree level and thus accreditation would be required from a recognised University.

Someone is sure to ask the question (as i have :) ) "Well how do you set that up" ? My answer is ~ By adding an entirely new wing to the Forum so that juniour, intermediate and senior studies can be mounted as distance learning projects as I indicate earlier with accreditation from a recognised University ... Its not going to be easy but it can be done... How about an investigative pilot programme to discover the viability and then launch the whole thing to Forum. ?

At the same time I agree that we are open and always will be to newcomers and the entire spectrum of interested people. Its a great mixture of readers and the library system is a great resource for those who wish to search deeper.

Comments please ! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim

Most PhDs have degrees it art and minor history or are doctorates in history with a dual doctorate in art there are few doctorates handed out specially for historical arms and armor. So certification from an accredited college is really not the way to go. As far as having a separate section of the forum I don't think it will float with the rest of the team. There would be too many legal hassles to over come.

Lew

There is certainly "academic level" knowledge exhibited almost daily on this forum. Since a PhD degree is an research based degree, many forum comments exhibit the results of considerable breath and focus of knowledge that any PhD would envy.

In terms of academic fields, when we focus on specific types of weapons as cultural features of contemporary societies, we are in Cultural Anthropology. When its how living peoples make or use them, its Social Anthropology like in my Kassala Sword paper. If the peoples are dead, its History or is no one still use the weapons, its Art History because most ethnographic weapons are an expression of ethnic art.

Regardless of how academics may organize their work or delineate their turf, we forumites / formestas have a passion for our subject. I would like to see the members produce more articles on a subjects they know well. Maybe they could be peer reviewed and subject to an editorial board for a little polish before being posted on our site. I know I usually need a "cold eye" review of most of what I write and personally lack e-document publishing skills.

Viable subjects might include Makers Marks, Shields, African Knights (there was a great collection of period photographs recently posted), Takhuba, Kaskara, Kris, Weapons of the Sudan, Arabia, India, Phillipines, or a focused region or particular people or time. None would need to claim comprehensiveness, but could be either broad or narrow focus and could even be a an essay or organized forum comments on a particular subject or research and discussion on an individual weapon. The material could be based on museum collections, personal collections, field work or literature review. Most academic papers are not ground breaking or be-alls and end-alls. They are mostly the collection of information by the researcher who wants to share it with his/her peers.

Regards to writers who brave and overcome the Blank Page.

Ed

I would not worry too much about academic standards. Just look at the number of mislabeled weapons in museums. The best standard I have seen is Oakeshott, and he was more learned collector than academic. We do have a few academics on this sight that know their stuff, but I would trust a old time collector before most academics.

ditto...again... ;) :)
What i like to see in discussions on these forums is intelligent argument that is backed up with logic and resources. You do not need a PhD to do this, just a logical and intelligent approach.
I cannot speak for the owner of this site, but i am fairly certain that Lee has no desire to extent this site into the territory of accredited academia. I do not discourage an academic approach, but frankly gentleman, you can leave your certifications and degrees at the door as far as i'm concerned. As Mross points out, i have seen more mislabeled ethnographic weapons in major museums than i can shake a keris at and don't think all their academic degrees make curators any more knowledgeable than a truly engaged longtime collector with a real love of the weapons he/she collects.

Hullo everybody! :)

Hear hear, mross!

In my experience, I have come across many places where articles have been 'misrepresented'.
In the beginning, I tried to subtly inform the appropriate parties about said situations. The bottom line was, they would allow me no credibility unless I showed my 'pedigree'.
I now no longer engage in this exercise in futility.
I prefer to be taken at face value and allow the other party to otherwise disbelieve me. I am loathe to reel out 'pieces of paper'/name-drop etc. every time someone disbelieves me.

My basic philosophy is that there are 'parallel truths' in this world, depending one's perceptions/beliefs.
I use other works as a guide and try to locate the 'original' source. Having done this, I will then try to conduct my own evaluation.

BTW ..... has anyone tried to correct sellers on THAT online bidding site? The vast majority basically ignore you .....for one reason or another. :)

Best,

Salaams Lew ~ Thank you for your reply and points noted are understood particularly on the legal issues, however, Forum has produced what is probably the finest resource in this field and notwithstanding the inability of universities to recognise the specialisations contained within our "society" to date ~ Does this mean they will forever be in denial ?

I hope that I am not straying too far from the original post in bringing this subject to the table. I should also add that I speak not only of certification at the top end but at all levels as required, therefor, as a broad and general approach to the betterment of all concerned I would advise certification at juniour, intermediate and senior levels; 75% of which could be administered by the forum without recourse to accrediting bodies. Naturally when I speak about degrees and doctorates of excellence that would need underpinning for example by SOAS. The School of Oriental and African Studies or similar.

It is understandable that peoples approach when you mention intellectuals and academics can be sometimes negative but this is a very passe reaction because nowadays Universities (by definition) are for everyone as are its rewards. It seems to me that since we are at the forefront of research in the vast majority of chosen sub-fields of historical weaponry that we ought to benefit from that.

Having the added responsibility for leading the project into the educational sector is something we ought to take on with open arms... since we are leaders in the field. :shrug:

It would probably change nothing but it would probably enhance everything.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

With all due respect, the last thing I'd like to see this Forum turn into is an internet-based, correspondence-style degree granting entity. There is always the University of Phoenix and a multitude of other fly-by-night operations advertising on the late-night TV.

The purpose and the level of internet Fora differ from the legitimate departments of history/art/archeology etc at real universities. The latter require focussed career paths, total dedication to the profession and the field, much more stringent criteria of proof, deeper and more focussed topics, peer-reviewed publications and structured educational backgrounds.

This is not to say that museums do not make mistakes and that an amateur collector cannot make a valuable minor contribution to the field, but the whole structure of science has changed over the past 200 years. It is no longer the province of a "gentleman-scientist", but of a consummate professional. None of us would dream about spending months and years in multiple libraries, digging out original references ( not other books, written by true professionals!), translating obscure texts, delving into esoteric fields to find a snippet of paleographic information etc, etc, etc, - just to describe a fragment of a rusty sword in the storage room of some forgotten museum. I suggest to my potential opponents to read a chapter on persian daggers by Ivanov in the Elgood's monograph on islamic arms to understand whom do they propose we start competing with :-)

To think that you and I can suddenly and magically produce a professional treatise on arms and armour akin to Elgood's books, is just as realistic as expecting Elgood to write credible articles on signal transduction, system analysis, molecular biology, topology or engineering of bridges.

All of us have our own careers and we should strive to advance within their frameworks. Arms and armour is our mutual hobby and it gives us a lot of freedom to advance crazy ideas, ask naive questions, make silly mistakes , - all without detriment to our professional reputation. This is our enormous advantage over the professionals, and we should rejoice that this and other Fora give us a suitable platform for such games, a small intellectual sandbox where no professional arm historian would dare to be seen.

With best wishes to all.

I would tend to disagree with making this an accredited academic forum. There are few (I don't know of any offhand) accredited universities that grant doctorates in ancient or ethnographic weapons. There is also the problem of who on the forum would be responsible for verifying the poster's degree and the accreditation of the institution? Of course there are many internet sites where you can purchase a degree of any level in any topic you wish. We have lots of knowledgeable folks on the forum and (as a scientist) I also consider any reply as an opinion not necessarily as absolute fact. Let's leave well enough alone.

Rich S
------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

The Japanese Sword Index
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm


"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
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I'd like to support the last two points of view.
I do this for fun, and because its great to learn more, but if it became 'accredited' and I suddenly began to feel that I should up my game, then it would be just like work, and the fun would go out of it pretty fast. Like a number of others here (as far as I can gather), I am also a professional academic in a whole other field, and that functions nothing like the EAA forum. The differences being that 1) by and large most people here are happy to share and help those just starting out or asking questions because they would like to learn more. 2) here you can make mistakes, use the :o smiley and not worry - this should not be confused with professional academic practice.
The forum makes a fantastic contribution to the knowledge in the area precisely because anyone can contribute and people feel relaxed about doing this regardless of their status. So my personal point of view is please leave the friendly and well functioning forum alone.

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The relaxed, informal approach that we have taken for the last 15 years or more is the very thing that has made Vikingsword "probably the finest resource in this field" .

If it ain't broke, don't fix it .....

The question i (and many) are sure to ask is not how, but why? To what end? How would this serve our discussions here? Who would it benefit?
Who are we trying to impress? How will it make the discussions on these forums any better? Any more informational? And more legitimate? Any more "correct"? :shrug: :)
And lastly, would it make this forum any more or less fun? :)

On the one hand the expertise and collector observations have contributed to the knowledge of the field(s) of ethnographic weaponry. I feel that the more information, knowledge, and academic prowess the better.

On the other the fun and freedom (and demand for respect) of this forum made this forum so viable, in contrast to some other forums that are dwindling in participation.

Everyone seems to come here first for knowledge and then I notice that being proliferated by some members here to other forums.

I find myself being proud to be a member of this forum and interesting.

You are shouting good sense there buddy!

Not ever going to happen here.

Salaams Ibrahiimю

I am chucking, not at your suggestion, which is fine, but at the reality. Most [read all] universities, at least here, are liberal-"pwned" [internet term] , and want nothing to do with any kind of weapons.
Look at the biggest and best art museums of the world, how many of them have an ethnographic arts wing that has a sizable weapons section???
I would be really surprised if such a degree could be instituted anywhere in the US.

Just my $.02

Salaams all~ Vandoo in his post states good points for all.

In so far as my take on it; Perhaps a separate section to the forum dedicated to advanced research and fuelled by students wishing to qualify themselves with an ethnographic arms qualification be it a junior certificate, intermediate or senior up to degree level and accredited [U]only in the latter case[/U]... perhaps that is a bridge too far.

In my view this educational specialised (EAA ED)"small" section would carry the full bibliography and composite course by course reading list and provide students with the potential to purchase course content (books) therefor to some extent it would have a commercial edge (tempered by our constitutional awareness of all things commercial) I will not overburden readers with the proposed courses details, however, each module would carry marks and the courses would be EAA administered for a fee as with normal distance learning programs.

Qualifications up to degree level are for everyone young and old and the subject matter is Universal~ Where else would a student go to for a qualification in EAA?

This is 2012 after all~ Technology is doubling its speed every 11 months ~ The internet is a huge learning information driven resource of which we are already part. My suggestion is not the death knell of EAA; on the contrary it dovetails perfectly with the modern world and used properly and sympathetically will take this forum into the next century... I hope!

At any rate it is not my intention to drag it screaming and digging in its heels, therefor, I leave my thoughts on this subject to provide a beacon of light should the discussion be re examined (by some passing space ship in the 21 century?) :shrug: :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim

I think you are beating a dead horse here ;).

Lew

Raining on the wet, we say here :rolleyes: .

Frankly Ibrahiim, i am finding your condescending tone here just a bit annoying. Your idea that we are all somehow resisting such an obviously brilliant beacon of light shining so brightly that only the ignorant can, well, ignore it, is really quite obnoxious.
I am not going to step too far into the many reasons why this will never happen on this forum, though a few obviously come to mind. Since there are clearly no pre-existing degree programs in this field, who will be the professors of this new school? Who is fully qualified to create the curriculum, who will devise the rubrics, who will grade the work and grant the "degrees"? What will these "degrees" mean in the world at large? To carry any weight at all in the academic world the program would need to be officially accredited. Without that the "degrees" would be meaningless beyond the "walls" of these fora. Do you have any idea what that would take to accomplish? Finally, do you intent on us having a program that covers all ethnographic weapons or just your own area of interest? Just the study of keris alone is a lifetime's endeavor. How would you ever expect to create a comprehensive learning center here that can cover all aspects of this vast and diverse subject?
I respectfully suggest that you shop this idea somewhere else or perhaps consider starting your own website to accommodate it, because as i believe you have already heard from a number of the moderators on this forum, it not going to happen here... :rolleyes:

Folks,
I would not beat on Ibrahim THAT hard. I did not detect anything obnoxious, condescending or annoying in his comments. Just a bit too far out in left field:-)

He means well, he is obviously passionate about old weapons and wants to make this Forum better. The idea is obviously cockamamie :-), but don't we all have crazy ( at least in retrospect) ideas? That's the beauty of this Forum!

Ibrahim, I salute your creativity and passion, but this idea ain't gonna fly.

Best wishes!

I say, when posting information and comments, if you can support them with references and facts, please do. Otherwise, this forum exists to elicit questions and answers from both novices and academics alike. Other forums that have divided their threads down to the level of "Pre-1800 Guns", "1800 to 1850 Guns", "Beginners Section", "Garage Sale Finds", etc, etc, seem to fizzle as their area becomes too broad. No one is following all of them at the same time and valuable insight is often lost. Please keep the Forum EXACTLY as it is. I have loved and followed this forum site since the very beginning and would hate to see it change- :(

Frankly Ariel, i'm not "beating" on Ibrahiim at all. I merely let it be known that i found his comment (the one i cited) obnoxious and condescending and i am not alone on that take. If you did not that is just fine, but it does nothing to change how i feel about the comment.
Actually gentlemen, i'd say that this thread is not going anywhere productive and i have a feeling that it will be closing soon. So if you have any comments to share pro or con on this issue i would suggest that you get it out quickly and civilly.

great suggestion, ibrahiim, but as m eley so eloquently explained, adding another section would further erode this forum.


classy response, rick! as always, you exemplifies what a fair forum moderator should be.

I UNDERSTAND THE PASSION OF AN IDEA!. I ONCE POSTED THAT IT WAS TIME SOMEONE UPDATED AND CORRECTED STONES GLOSSARY OF ARMS AND ARMOR. :eek:
HOW ONE MAN DID THAT MUCH IN ONE LIFETIME IS BEYOND MY UNDERSTANDING, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT WORK WITH A LARGE TEAM AND UNLIMITED FUNDS TODAY.
THE IDEA OF MAKEING SOME KIND OF UNIVERSITY OUT OF THIS FORUM IS NOT POSSIBLE AS THAT IS NOT WHAT THE FORUM IS ABOUT.
BUT PERHAPS MEMBERS OF LIKE MINDS MAY MEET AND GET TOGETHER HERE VIA E- MAIL OR PM AND WORK TOGETHER ON PROJECTS OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS. TRAINED PEOPLE IN THESE MANY FIELDS OF INTREST ARE SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED AS THEY ARE USUALLY THE ONES WHO WRITE THE REFRENCES WE ALL SEARCH FOR.
I WOULD THINK LOOKING INTO THE COURSES REQUIRED FOR BEING A MUSEUM CURATOR AND CONSERVATOR WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START. LIKE UPDATEING STONES ITS NOT A BAD IDEA, BUT A LOT OF WORK AND THE RIGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE AND STAY DEDICATED WOULD BE NECESSARY FOR SUCH A LARGE UNDERTAKEING.
I FIND NOTHING OFFENSIVE IN THESE COMMENTS AND THINK THE POSTS IN THE TOPIC ARE INTERESTING AND CAN SEE MERIT IN THE IDEA BUT THE FORUM IS AN ARCHIVE WHICH CAN BE VALUABLE TO ANY ACCREDITED PEOPLE BUT IS NOT UP TO TRAINING THEM. :)

THE FORUM IS WHAT IT IS AND I LIKE IT AS IS. IDEAS ARE PART OF WHAT WE DO HERE EVEN IF MAKING THEM WORK OFTEN HAS TO OCCUR OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS WE ALL BENIFIT IN THE END. :) AS DAVID POINTS OUT GROUPS HAVE BEEN FORMED HERE BASED ON IDEAS IN THE PAST SO HOPEFULLY THIS WILL CONTINUE AND RESULT IN GOOD THINGS IN THE FUTURE. :cool:

Barry, i think this has happened on numerous occasions and would most certainly encourage like minded forumites to to form outside projects to these Forums.

Hi all,

Ibrahim, six years ago I had asked about the possibility of publishing forum content in some form or other, recognizing the value of the informal expertise (experience) in this forum. The issues and difficulties with the idea identified then were the same identified above. Some support was voiced, however, for sending out proceedings from forum meetings/talks in electronic format. Something in the vein of the Timonium seminar.

Such a thing requires organization, investment in time and money and considerable dedication. And it requires consistent participation. Perhaps more than most of the members here are looking for. While immensely grateful to Lee and Oriental-Arms for their sponsorship of the forum and of the Timonium event, I gather that most members here come to the forum for its pleasant informality and ease of use.

Publishing or formal accreditation is simply beyond what most people want from this forum :shrug:

Best regards,
Emanuel