Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6923)

VVV 27th August 2008 04:50 PM

Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda?
 
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Here is an old Sumatran keris where the hilt is more twisted than usual, reminding me about the Malay Peninsular Anak Ayam Sejuk.
As you can see this carver never heard about the explanation that the face of the Javanese with fever is below the tanjak-headdress, to recap an old discussion.
What do you think?

Michael

Marcokeris 27th August 2008 07:46 PM

Sorry Michael
What is the meaning of Anak Ayam Seyuk :confused:
and...tanjak :confused:
The hit is (IMO) a very nice sumatran hilt ....but mendak :) ...is more nice :eek:

VVV 27th August 2008 07:58 PM

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Sorry if I was a bit unclear.
The Anak Ayam Sejuk hilt is aka the Pipit Teleng (picture below).
The tanjak is a head-dress.

Here is the old discussion I was referring to

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001449.html

Michael

asomotif 27th August 2008 09:11 PM

Quote:
nice sumatran hilt ....but mendak ...is more nice


:confused: :rolleyes:
I am afraid the whole keris is a nice one ;)

The hilt is in a pretty upright position indeed.
And the arm wrapped around the body.
Very nice hilt, but indeed a bit odd for a Jawa deman style. :confused:
If you want to part with it, just send me a PM :D :D :D

PenangsangII 28th August 2008 02:31 AM

maybe this hilt can be called hulu nem neman, carved by an artist with a free mind, thus not restricted to pakem hulu. Just a thought....

VVV 28th August 2008 04:01 PM

Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael

Marcokeris 28th August 2008 07:06 PM

IMO from the picture i can see a nice Garuda sumatran hilt: not very very old but surely old! (more than fifty). The quality of hard (but not heavy...i suppose) strong wood is absolutely nice! The quality of work is good too. In my collector's hits experience is not so difficult to find a hilt like this but...I don't have a Mendak like this :D (maybe because in Bali or in Yogya is rather easy to find old sumatran hits...but is really difficult for me to find nice sumatran mendak alone (without a blade under and a hit above).

VVV 28th August 2008 07:30 PM

Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak :D

Michael

Marcokeris 28th August 2008 07:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak :D

Michael

More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother :)

David 28th August 2008 08:00 PM

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called? :shrug: :)

VVV 28th August 2008 08:56 PM

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Look forward to your pictures, Marco.
I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C.

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Michael

David 29th August 2008 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Well yes, we do all know what you mean. Still, there is a habit within the keris community to just use Javanese terms regardless of the origin of the keris which i think in the end is not the best idea. Often just an English word will suffice (ie. sheath for wrongko or sarong), but some part require more specific terms. I ask this question in the hopes of expanding our knowledge base. We all know what you mean using mendak here, but i must assume that there is a proper name for this part and i suspect that someone out there knows it. Just because we understand each other doesn't mean we should not strive for correctness. :)
That being said ....what a beautiful keris you have on the other side of that "mendak"! :D

PenangsangII 29th August 2008 01:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael


I dont believe that there is a fixed pakem for non-Jawanese hilts, but generally speaking the hilts are identifyable whether it is pipit teleng, patah tiga, kerdas, penghulu etc etc. IMHO, your hilt is stylized from palembang's balu mekabun.

VVV 29th August 2008 06:03 AM

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Thanks Penangsang,

Maybe it's still a bit unclear from my first pictures why I think it reminded me, regarding the leaning angle, about the Malay "chicken"-hilt. I hope these pictures makes it more visible.

Michael

PS The Palembang JD-hilt used as a comparison is the regular-sized, not the small, version.

PenangsangII 29th August 2008 09:10 AM

I see what you mean Michael, but the neck is just too tall for a pipit teleng though the resemblance is obvious.

BluErf 29th August 2008 05:21 PM

A masterpiece. All parts of it!

Congratulations, Michael.

For a Minang keris, the variation is so profuse, it doesn't make sense (at least with the current level of understanding) to try to classify them into any archetypal styles. Every village has their own forms, and the carver may just be 'going with the flow'. From the pictures shown, I believe the whole piece would look very balanced and pleasing, with the right proportions.

PenangsangII 30th August 2008 03:43 AM

If it wasnt for the fretworks on the ganja and the ricikan at the dandik & sorsoran, I would have thought the blade was a pandai saras...... :)

Marcokeris 30th August 2008 03:47 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother :)

...of course the blade is beautiful (but i didn't have any doubts)

VVV 30th August 2008 04:39 PM

Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...)
Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother.
Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays?

Michael

Lew 30th August 2008 05:07 PM

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Hi Guys

Here is a similar one to Michael's keris.

Lew

Alam Shah 31st August 2008 02:22 AM

ayam teleng and ayam gila...
 
Hi Lew,

your hilt is what termed to be "Anak Ayam Gila", literally translated to be "the crazy little chick". It's an ayam teleng form, but with an added twist, the neck area, the tilt is exaggerated. Both are Terengganu form from Peninsular Malaysia. :)

Compare yours with Michael's post #3 piece. See the difference? ;)

ganjawulung 31st August 2008 04:45 AM

CIREBON Hilts
 
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Just for a little comparison to Michael's and Marco's hilts. These are Cirebon hilts -- with Jawa Demam style. Cirebon located in the northern-west coast of Central Jawa -- this old Islamic kingdom of Cirebon originated from Hindhu Pajajaran Kingdom in West Java...

Ganjawulung

Newsteel 31st August 2008 06:39 AM

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Pak Ganja,
I don't think that your hilt is a Cirebon. That is Sumatran Minang jawa demam. You can see the arms are folding cold and that little protuding ears (like mickey mouse). You do not see Cirebon with that folding arms. The arms (palm) of the Cirebon dewa hilt would go downwards towards his knees.

Minang jawa deman pic.

VVV 31st August 2008 07:16 AM

I agree with Newsteel. The hilt variation of Pak Ganja's has not travelled from Cirebon/Tegal to Sumatra but (maybe in this case?) the other way around. Two of mine of this variation are for instance on Keris Panjang.

Michael

Marcokeris 31st August 2008 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...)
Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother.
Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays?

Michael

No Michael, but i found it in Bali (Kerobokan area) one year ago.
In Balý is rather easy to find all kind of indonesian handles (but bronze from Banjarmasin is very difficult to see) )because the island is full of antik shops ... but also full of buyers!
I think Ganja is right when says that around Cirebon some handles have the same Garuda Sumatra pattern (many times other indonesian people said me the same ) .

VVV 31st August 2008 06:29 PM

Now I am curious because you both claim this.
Are you sure that the hilts are locally produced, not imported?
There was a lot of trade over the strait and quite often you find Sundanese golok in the East part of Sumatra.
Maybe the same for this kind of hilt, the other way around?

Michael

Marcokeris 31st August 2008 08:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called? :shrug: :)

Sorry mr. David but mr. K.Jensen in the actual Krisdisk calls mendak many sumatran (and Sulawesi) rings with the same motif.

VVV 31st August 2008 08:35 PM

That's because Karsten decided to use Javanese terminology all over, instead of local, to make it less confusing. In this case he would probably call it a selut but as I understood what you meant I didn't care. A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra?

Michael

David 31st August 2008 09:29 PM

[QUOTE=VVV A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? [/QUOTE]
But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"? :)
Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers. :shrug:

Alam Shah 1st September 2008 01:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"? :)
It would be nice but one have lot of research... . Not only on that region but also the period. To me, good to know but not essential. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers. :shrug:
Personally, as long as the message gets accross... it have served its intended purpose.

Sumatra is a large place, with varying tribes with different dialects, a term might differ from one tribe to another. Researching this is a different ball game altogether, unless you're doing a PhD or something and willing to do field research, it would be an uphill task, even if one is willing to do groundwork... yet still, no guarantee. :shrug:

ganjawulung 1st September 2008 03:56 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsteel
Pak Ganja,
I don't think that your hilt is a Cirebon. That is Sumatran Minang jawa demam. You can see the arms are folding cold and that little protuding ears (like mickey mouse). You do not see Cirebon with that folding arms. The arms (palm) of the Cirebon dewa hilt would go downwards towards his knees.

Minang jawa deman pic.

Dear Newsteel, (and Michael too...),
Actually, Hindhu-Islamic Cirebon -- which the past kingdom was older than Islamic Banten in the extreme west of Java and the Islamic Demak in the northern part of Central Java -- should attract more attention for "keris researcher" in the future. Yes, you will find many interesting questions on this older site of Java. Did they "bring" the keris culture from (outside) Sumatra? Or were they influenced by their older culture -- father's (ancestor) culture of Hindhu Pajajaran kingdom in west Java? (The founder of the Cirebon kingdom was the King Siliwangi's son of Pajajaran). In keris culture, Pajajaran blades were known for their good iron materials (Pajajaran trade-connection with Portuguese?). But Cirebon is known -- more connection with "Islamic" power in southern Chinese... (Probably it will be interesting too if you connect with the legend of Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat in Malay history. Were there any connection between their name "Hang" with Han Dynasty?)

These pics below, are just for comparison. One picture -- with (probably) Sumatran Jawa Deman with crossed-hand in the chess, and "ornamental crossed-hand" like generally found in Cirebon hilts... And also, picture for comparison of what supposed to be Cirebon hilts and Tegal hilt in the extreme right...). Please don't bother the blades..

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung 1st September 2008 04:49 AM

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At first glance, Cirebon sheath is quite similar to bugis/sumatran sheath. But actually much different, if you regard from upper view. Cirebon (boatlike) sheath -- as bugis too -- is with "daunan" (leaf-like form, like most Javanese sheath)...

This "daunan" (leaf) form from the northern coast of Java, also seen in javanese jogja and solo style. Either like the form of "cassava" leaf ("nggodhong pohung"), or "jack fruit" leaf ("nggodhong nangka")..

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung 2nd September 2008 04:03 AM

Other examples
 
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These are other examples of Java Demam hilts. Three variations of size, normal, medium and small size... Not in a good condition

Ganjawulung

BluErf 6th September 2008 08:44 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Just for a little comparison to Michael's and Marco's hilts. These are Cirebon hilts -- with Jawa Demam style. Cirebon located in the northern-west coast of Central Jawa -- this old Islamic kingdom of Cirebon originated from Hindhu Pajajaran Kingdom in West Java...

Ganjawulung


I think the hilt on the left (with no visible arms) could be from the north coast area of Java. I have been informed by dealers, who were in turn informed by their Indonesian suppliers, that the hilts were sourced from these areas. So we've come to refer to these hilts as 'pasisir', or simply 'coastal region'.

I have 2 such hilts, from 2 different dealers. I can see the similarities in motif between my 2 hilts and Michael's, but I also feel that Michael's hilt is an evolved form, not from the original 'source' region. This is judging from the posture of the hilt, and some new motifs, such as the criss-cross patches, the hair, the belly button patterns (which is v common in Minang hilts) .

Marcokeris 6th September 2008 01:51 PM

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BluErf
IMO two rare fantastic java's hits :) :eek:
Here another very old Cirebon (?) made by bone:

A. G. Maisey 6th September 2008 08:07 PM

I've been following this discussion with interest, but I have not taken part because I did not feel I had anything to contribute.

I have looked at all the images posted, I have looked at pictures of keris from North Jawa that left their place of origin prior to 1900, I have looked at keris in my own collection that have hilts of the type shown here. I have looked at the classification of hilts in Suhartono Rahardjo's Ragam Hulu Keris.

Now I feel that I have reached the point where I must raise a question.

My question is this:-

where is the evidence that this type of hilt can be classified as originating from Cirebon, or even the North coast of Jawa?

I know that Pak Gonjo has told us they are Cirebon hilts, I know that he has an interest in this area, thus I assume he can support his information.

I can accept the classification as an opinion, we can all hold opinions, be they correct or incorrect, but this classification as a Javanese hilt is new to me, and I can find no evidence to support it.

Is it possible that this form is one that was popular amongst people of Malay heritage who lived on the North Coast of Jawa, but who were not aligned with any formal administrative system(kraton) ?

I would like to look more closely at this classification.

Briefly:- where is the evidence?

BluErf 7th September 2008 04:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
...
Here another very old Cirebon (?) made by bone:


Hi Marco,

I would associate this hilt with Minang Kabau, not Cirebon. I see this type of hilts coming out of Sumatra all the time. :)

BluErf 7th September 2008 04:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My question is this:-

where is the evidence that this type of hilt can be classified as originating from Cirebon, or even the North coast of Jawa?



This is an interesting question that I would very much like to find more information to. Frankly, when I was informed that such hilts came out of Java, I was rather skeptical. If not for the dealers' suppliers stating that these were sourced from the northern coast of Java, I would most likely have gone with a Sumatran attribution, given the Jawa demam form.

2 other observations:

- The pierced-through 'columnar form' of the lower mid-bodies of the hilts are very similar to other hilts (e.g. the Ganesha hilts) that we associate with Cirebon/N. Java. However, the base of these hilts is not the same as the typical Cirebon hilt in that it is more rounded and seemed to be designed to sit with a mendak; the Cirebon hilts have a flat cylindrical base that fits a selut. That said, the base is also not the same as the archetypal jawa demam bases, which should be bigger and rounder, and fit a pendoko.

- We don't see this type of hilts coming out of Sumatra (i.e. the suppliers in Sumatra were not able to find any such hilts).


I wouldn't call these evidence, just something that gets us thinking.

VVV 7th September 2008 05:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
...I have 2 such hilts, from 2 different dealers. I can see the similarities in motif between my 2 hilts and Michael's, but I also feel that Michael's hilt is an evolved form, not from the original 'source' region. This is judging from the posture of the hilt, and some new motifs, such as the criss-cross patches, the hair, the belly button patterns (which is v common in Minang hilts) .


Thanks Kai-Wee,

I also think so and that's why I was interested in reading the other forumites opinions.
On Alan's question of evidence of origin I am also quite curious, as stated earlier.
Especially as I haven't either seen them on Javanese keris from pre-1900 that was brought to Europe?

Michael

BluErf 7th September 2008 12:53 PM

I'm also open to the idea that these mystery jawa demam hilts could have been relatively recent back-flows (i.e. last 100yrs), from Sumatra back to Java, and modified. Hence, no such examples were seen in Europe. It could be that there are some Malay communities in Java have created such hilt forms, as Alan has pointed out. But this is all speculation now, I guess.


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