Yes, we must define 'Active Member' Erik but I don't think you have to worry . ;) :)

Anyone want to offer criteria for discussion of what makes an active member ?

Also, I would like to re-state ; if implemented these rules would only apply to the Warung members and only to keris related selling.

A minimum of 150 posts of which ten have been initiated by the person and that for the most parts do not contain speed-posting to boost the post account. By speed-posting I mean postings consisting mainly of

:)
:mad:
:p
:shrug:
:cool:
:eek:
etc.

The number (150) may appear big at first but it is in the interest of both the potential buyer and seller to have had enough exposure to the unwritten "DOs & DO NOT´s" of the forum until he puts himself and his reputation at risk publicly. We all know one can loose his virginity only once and same goes for reputation within such a small pond which the keris collectors pond truly is.

If you want a high standard you must set the bar accordingly.

Thanks,

J.

Whoa, this is a HOT subject! :)

Just as a caveat - I have no issues with dealers joining the forum, as long as their identity and intention is made clear to everyone. We all have trusted dealers whom we are friends with. Everything is above the board for these guys, and we appreciate that.

However, I am put off by dealers who disguise themselves as interested collectors, bearing ulterior motives. Must admit that I was the victim of such a character a few months back, here in Singapore. I was asked to visit the said person's home to look at his collection and share some opinions. That was a bad mistake, but it was entertaining how he twisted and turned his view on keris (from esoteric emphasis to cultural/history/art) to fit my views on keris-collecting. :) He also insisted on seeing my collection - which I firmly refused - because he wanted to take photos of my kerises (for what purpose I wonder :rolleyes: ). He even pretended to take down some notes of my comments on why his newly-made kerises were not 'correct'. It was also very funny to burst his hot air balloon on some of his "magical" kerises which could stand by themselves (I balanced more than a few of his "magical" and "non-magical" kerises in front of him).

Anyway, my encounter was funny because the person was neither sophisticated nor knowledgeable in keris; he made a fool of himself. But had it been some else who knows his stuff, it would have been a lot harder to call the bluff.

Drawing the analogy to the forum, there are some such disguised dealers who are easy to spot. Others may not be. Some really ask questions in such details that we would have thought they were one of us. Some dealers also 'don't cr*p where they eat', to put it crudely, using the forum only as a source of info and reference. These are the bad dealers that are hardest to uncover.

However, I agree that some form of new rules would be better than no rules, and those proposed by Rick are good. I just wonder who is going to keep tabs on the 90days rule since a lot of new threads could have come and go in that period.

How about this - we can also look at a peer rating system in which fellow forumnites vote whether a fellow member is a "positive contributing member", or a possible "dealer in disguise" (there can be other categories/levels). This could require some tinkering of the forum programming. Votes can be given by each certified positive contributing member for every thread/post put up by any forumnite (members can only cast 1 vote for each post, once). Voting is anonymous. Accumulating a number of votes in certain categories would earn the poster that positive contributor or dealer in disguise tag. To prevent the rating system from being abused as a "political weapon" by factions/cliques/groups (which I don't think there are), I propose that the votes are only visible to moderators who can choose to endorse or ignore the tag. If endorsed, the tag appears below the member's avatars in every of their post/thread. To combat the possibility of the DiDs creating new IDs all the time, new IDs may be given the "stranger" tag or something, just to raise everyone's alert. The tags can be renamed to be more politically correct, but I'm just throwing up ideas.

I know this forum software features a reputation points option .
I don't know if it can be turned on for only one forum . :shrug:
I have real concerns about enabling it due to possible abuse .

I also think (however attractive) the 90 day prohibition would involve a lot of Moderator work trying to enforce this timeline properly .

I think the New Member designation is a very good idea .
Using this feature we could control the amount of posts needed to become a full member . When the designation changes, the newly graduated member can sell keris on the site .

Keep 'em coming Gentlemen . :)

In my experience and opinion there are only two ways to handle the €€€ question.

Commercialism either is completely acceptable and everything about it transparent or it either is completely unacceptable meaning that all violations despite how minimal against this principle must be met ruthlessly. Anything other in between these two opposing ends can and certainly will lead to problems and an ever increasing amount of innumerable rules followed by more rules. I hope that those in command choose the easy way out and set out a simple principle which against all action is judged upon instead of writing a book of laws and by-laws.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...rinciple03.gif

What we need is a simple principle, common sense, transparency and equal treatment of everybody never mind you status, rank, age or post count. I do not propose the idea of peer ranking as it will put people in unequal situation and lead to politics that would be contrary to what this place is set to be for(?).

Thanks,

J.

I think we might be getting close Jussi .

I too would like to keep this as simple as possible, really ... :)

A couple or three bright line rules .

Thanks for your input .

I'm pretty much booked up for today, and will not have time to comment or read any more posts until tomorrow, but one post in the above caught my attention immediately, the one by Jussi.

Jussi, I strongly agree with and support this philosophy you have tendered.

Without reservation.

I generally agree with Jussi.

The one thing I would add is that the rules need to include some information about how you are planning to enforce them. Your response to my hypothetical was a good one, because it showed how such rules would work in practice. This could probably be folded under the rubric of "transparency."

As for equality and transparency, that's good. I think it's also reasonable to ask people to make a minimum commitment, such as a certain number of posts, as part of joining a community of equals who can use the swap forum. Most communities have entrance requirements, and we're not banning them from posting elsewhere.

Best,

F

Thanks for your input Fearn . :)

I've contacted Lee to see if the software will allow certain functions for this forum only .

I am glad that Alan has brought this issue up. I have often thought about it myself, and it is quite complicated when it comes to enforcing strict rules, as the problem often comes down to original intent, and intent is a very difficult thing to determine without the ability to read minds.

Let me start by stating that I like the Swap Forum as part of this portal. It is definitely not the main reason I visit here, but I like the idea that if a member wishes to part with an item he or she no longer desires, the rest of us would get a chance at it. I believe in one or two instances, the items I bought through the Swap Forum had been discussed in the main discussion forums (but not immediately preceding their posting for sale).

With this said, I do not mind even those members, who are here solely as dealers. The reason is, as a collector I need dealers, and I actually like to have access to their items here as well.

What I do not like, however, is when an item is posted for discussion, without the poster acknowlidging his intention to sell. As discussed before, there should not be a problem when a regular collector decides to part with an item after receiving comments on it. The issue, if I understand correctly are the cases in which a dealer tries to disguise his real intentions only to abuse the collective knowledge in these forums.

Those cases leave a bad taste, because we feel deceived, and I often find myself unwilling to comment on certain items, as I suspect that the poster is just gathering info to help with a sale.

It would be great therefore that posters, who are contemplating the sale of the item they put up for discussion, simply specify so. Obviously, there will be exceptions, but I think it is common sense that if a poster regularly posts items for comments only to have a "change of heart" shortly thereafter, this would constitute a breach of the rules.

I also want to suggest another rule - since potential sellers would benefit from the knowledge others will share with them pertaining to their item, they should probably give back to the forum community. The simplest way to do this would be to list the item here, in the swap forum first, for at least a week. If it does not sell, then I would not mind them looking at other options, but I feel it is only fair to give a first chance to the other members here, as a token of gratitude for all the info received.

Best regards,
Teodor

Thank you Teodor; I agree with much of what you have said ; especially the idea of exclusive pre auction time here regarding kerises . :)

Speaking for myself, I would dislike to see 'keris for discussion(and quick sale)' posted in the Warung .

This is not what the Warung is about .
Our up front Dealer/Member/Contributors of many years standing all know that . :)

If one wishes to use the Warung for gathering information and, (after a decent amount of time) decides to part with the keris discussed then I have no problem with that .*

*Links to (or quotes from) the discussion (in any venue) will still have to be approved by authors of pertinent posts in that referenced thread .

Using Alan's sports analogy. I think they should have a "open" Olympics where not only professionals, but, also any performance enhancing agents found are allowed. Let anybody who wants to watch that, go right ahead. All will be on the same footing. They should continue the regular Olympics with the original values, where anyone found cheating should be banned for life with a penalty to the hosting nation so they put a real effort into preventing it from happening.
Likewise I would like to see a subforum of the swap. Here anyone who wants info on a for sale or a soon to be for sale item can post. Contributers who want to contribute real or fraudulent information can go for it. Anybody found using the regular forum for this activity should be banned to sword forum international for life.


My 2 cents.
Jeff

Thanks Jeff .... :shrug:


















I think . :confused: ;)

I agree on a moratorium: 3 months seem ok to me; 1 month is a bit short. (Make it months from the day of posting - there will always be some who inadvertently mess up counts by a day or two...)

I believe any new rules should apply to all EAAF fora - fishing for information to promote sales is not limited to keris and I believe the same standards should apply to the whole community here. (I believe this has been the intention in setting up and maintaining this wonderful resource - please correct me if I got it wrong, Lee!)

As already pointed out, it's fairly easy to spot repeated commercial behavior on this site; however, I'd be more concerned with info gained here and (ab)used elsewhere (ebay, etc.). Thus, if any info gained here were to be utilized freely elsewhere, I'd still need to frame my answers here on the forum accordingly (not different from the current situation). IMHO the moratorium should apply to all venues. We would certainly miss some offending sales; however, I'm confident that repeated offenders will get caught by the community.

I'm not yet sure how to deal with honest change-of-heart situations as pointed out by Detlef. There are also newbies who would like to get info on inherited pieces or souvenirs. Some realize that collecting is not their thing and decide to sell off the piece under discussion (many just prefer a little cash or want to get rid of the tourist trinket but there are also those who realize that a valued family heirloom may be better cared for in a specialized collection and may even aid research). I'm not convinced that imposing the moratorium in those cases would be sensible.

How about another subforum dedicated to identification of unknown, weird, and possibly-for-sale pieces? Comments in such a subforum could be considered free to utilize for possible future sale and answers framed accordingly by those choosing to give advice. I could also envision that threads posted in any of the other fora could be moved to this special "quarantine section" once the thread starter has acquired permission from all contributors. Moreover, it would seem suitable to me to be able to move an identification thread over to the swap forum (shouldn't be noticeably more work for the moderators, I guess). This would also allow an exclusive offering in the swap forum before a seller decides to move on to other venues (if such a separate - possibly 1 week - moratorium is deemed preferable). IMHO it should also be possible to move an identification thread over to the more pertinent subforum if the owner decides to keep it in his collection (for the next 3 months) and would like to get more detailed discussion.

In short: In-depth discussion of pieces deemed to stay in the own collection in the major subfora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi, European Armoury), offers and trades in the Swap Forum, and a flexible Identification Resource to fill the gap in between.

BTW, I still feel that keris sundang (Moro kris) and tombak (and rencong, and badek, etc.) should be an integral part of the Keris Warung Kopi. Arguably, it would make much more sense to include all stuff from the SEA archipelago (Malay culture in a very wide sense) here. Yeah, just nagging... ;)

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for you comments Kai. I think some of it tends to get too complex and i am not sure that opening up other forums to deal with appraisals is really the way to go here. I know that all this talk get people worried about severe daconian rules, but i think that what Rick and i have in mind will in the end be the most simple solutions we can find to a rather complex issue.
Personally i am opposed to extending a moratorium on the sale of forum discussed items beyond the virtual walls of our little forum. As i mentioned before, i don't think it is our obligation or right to police the entire internet in these cases. My concerns are what goes on in our own backyard, the abuses that are happening right here. If someone decides to sell a keris on eBay even immediately after getting information from his thread on our forum that's fine with me as long as he does not quote any member's comments in his auction, make any allusion to his keris being "approved" or "validated" by our keris forum and he places no notice of his sale on eBay (or elsewhere) in our Swap Forum for at least 30 days.
Members who have an "honest change-of-heart" have numerous other venues to dispose of their unwanted keris other than our Swap Forum, ones that have a much larger audience than us as well. Detlef should feel no remorse for his actions because no such rule exists as of yet and he did not transgress in any way. But once a rule is in place however members will know differently. :)

I do not post in the keris forum,but I do in the other forums. I am a dealer and a collector for many years, but I do not post items that I am going to sell in the discussion forums only items that are from my personal collection. The use of the forum as a catalog or as a sales advertisement has been happening with more frequencey the last few years. The result being that I do not respond to post very often any more. Why should I do a dealers research for him ?

I'm not a frequent poster here but I greatly enjoy the site and am the "new collector" type discussed above. I am also a moderator on another forum so know well how difficult it is to enforce sweeping policies, particularly if there is a time component to them. I really appreciate the easy going helpful atmosphere of EAA and strongly support your desire to keep shills and exploitative activity away.

It occurs to me that the member base fanatically watches all of the internet accessible sources for ethnographic weapons and little goes on in that arena that members here won't observe. You could simply set a policy that members are not authorized to use EAA for appraisals for items slated for sale and that such activity will result in a ban. The member base will take care of monitoring and reporting suspected abuse. At least on the forum I moderate on, members are more than happy to report rule violations.

I would caution against setting up a policy with time limits. As others mentioned it is usually pretty easy to tell the difference between a dealer using the EAA as an appraisal resource from collector deciding to flip a piece. Suspected violators could be contacted via PM with a warning. If their behavior continues, then the ban is applied. Problem solved.

There has been some good, solid input to this discussion.

Its great to see such a reaction on a topic which affects us all.

I endorse completely Rick's and David's declared intention to keep things simple.

I can understand David's stance that what happens outside the bounds of this site are not the concern of the people who regulate activity on this site. In fact, this was my own attitude at the outset of this discussion, however I am no longer certain that this attitude is the desireable one. It is certainly the most simple attitude to adopt, but I do have a problem with covert dealers extracting information to use in a sales pitch in another place.

Let me state up front that this would make not the slightest difference to me, because I do not buy in the same places that collectors buy. I have only ever bought two keris from Ebay , and both were keris that I had previously sold. I have never bought from the Swap Forum.

However, if a covert dealer extracts information by use of this Forum to assist his sales pitch, and thus the price realised, of an item he wishes to sell, he is in fact using the information supplied by collectors against those collectors.

I consider this to be unethical behaviour.

Ward has already pointed this out and said that it is the reason he no longer posts comment very often.

Think about this:-

all knowledge costs money and time to acquire

if a collector passes that knowledge on to somebody he regards as a fellow collector, he is giving that fellow collector a gift of his time, money, indeed of his life

if he passes the knowledge to a dealer who has posed as a collector in order to gain the knowledge, and who then uses that knowledge to increase the price of something he wishes to sell, then in my view, the dealer has stolen the knowledge from the collector; he has obtained the knowledge by deception.

in short:- the dealer has acted in an unethical fashion.

I believe that this Forum should attempt to assist its members by a policy of identifying unethical behaviour by dealers. I am not suggesting for one moment that such dealers should be identified openly. Nobody wants potential issues for litigation. But I am suggesting that unethical dealers should be denied the fellowship of this Forum. Keep them out.

Now the question is this:-

how do we identify a dealer?

to my mind the answer is simple:-

we ask

The relevant question could take a bit of thought to frame in an adequate fashion, but it could be done.

If a member states that he is not a dealer, and then demonstrates dealer-like behaviour he should be asked to explain, and if the explanation is inadequate, action should be taken against him.

Where a known dealer has acted in an unethical fashion that dealer should be asked to explain and if the explanation is unsatisfactory then action should taken against him.

All of this may sound complicated and possibly draconian, however in action it need not be. I believe that with thought, a simple administrative system could be put in place that would involve absolutely minimal work for our moderators and would return immeasureable benefits to our members.

On the other hand, if things continue as they have been, how many more collector/dealers like Ward, and I also fall into this category, will simply say:- "enough is enough, I'm not passing my knowledge along to other dealers". If this happens the pure collectors here will suffer great loss, because in general, dealers have access to more knowledge than people who do not deal.

PS--- I was about to post the above, and noted the post by Dizos. What he has written is very close to what is in my mind.

Hello David,

Just to clarify: the proposed Identification Forum was mainly intended for identification of "unknown" pieces - I think it would make sense to unite the combined knowledge of our members in a single dedicated subforum. For example, I'm not able to visit the European subforum often due to limited time and only check out threads which seem of interest; thus, I'd be unlikely to stumble over a Filipino dagger which may have been posted there for identification. For newcomers it's obviously quite tough to choose the "correct" forum to solicitate responses and also seasoned collectors have placed pieces in wrong fora. Of course, we can just shuffle threads around if needed - however, a dedicated subforum for identification seems to have advantages IMHO and would certainly be more user-friendly for new members.

Well, we can't stop anyone selling anything. However, if there were a consensus that a self-imposed rule seems to be beneficial to our community, then it should be no problem to state that not following the rules is incompatible with membership here. As Dizos mentioned, nobody expects the moderators to "police" the internet; blatant breaches of conduct will be soon spotted by the community though.

The main problem with exploiting information gained here is that the information won't be supplied anymore and this affects the whole community adversely: It doesn't matter where the sale is taking place. If we wan't to promote communication and gaining knowledge, I believe we can't restrict our efforts to the Swap Forum only.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Dizos,

I agree that communication with a perceived offender may be preferable over applying strict rules carved in stone. Sometimes it may be more a matter of getting acquainted to the rules and ethics of our community rather than deliberate misconduct since we're coming from fairly diverse socio-cultural backgrounds.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Alan,

Yes, I agree that asking and communicating with members may help to minimize unwanted exploitation of the community.

Yes, and he's certainly not alone: There are several recent examples of threads which suffer from less-than-usual feedback obviously due to the perceived intention of fishing for information.

Regards,
Kai

A large part of the problem is how to identify sellers, and yet keep it simple Alan had a good suggestion: Just ask them!

I also think that perhaps it would be prudent to develop a line of pertinant questions which have to be answered as people register to join the forum, and with this perhaps stop potentially new members from abusing the rules.

As it is presently, all a new prospective member have to do is to select a username, password and email address.

Perhaps a format that include a form with questions to the prospective member is in order. One of those questions of cause would be, Are you a dealer? yes__ no__, Do you regularly deal in edged weapons? yes__ no__ , Are you a collector of edged weapons who only deal in order to enhance your own collection?yes__ no__, etc. etc. etc. etc.

It is my belief that prevention is a powerful tool, and if the questionere is molded correctly, a great deal of the existing problems could be avoided.

Just a suggestion :)

Since I am thinking out of the box, so to speak. I was also thinking even though I don't really know if this would be possible at all.

If there were a way to change the program, so after a prospective member have identified themselves as dealers give them a password that would only access the Swap Forum.

That would certainly assure the continued posting of material in the Swap Forum, and at the same time prevent the dealers from stealing listing materiel for use in other venues. :shrug:

OK, DEALERS DECLARE YOURSELVES!
 

Well let's try this. I would hope that a good number of the Warung membership is currently monitoring this thread, especially the dealers. Sooooo, if you regularly deal in keris and related edged weapons, step up to the plate and tell us straight out. Seriously, who is a dealer out there? Yes, i probably already know, but i'd like to here it from you. Even if dealing is just a part-time thing for you or a collector who regularly turns weapons around for profit, you should declare that. Now's the time to let it officially be know. :)

Thank you all and keep the ideas coming .
I have contacted Lee about the forum software's capabilities; when I have a better idea of what can be altered we will proceed .

We must remember; we are not discussing Vikingsword's Site policy for the other forums or members .

Just the Warung . :)

david, i think you should start a new thread on this...


BINGO!

It is no secret that I am a dealer and never has been so I do not understand the Bingo.

I don't want to speak for Ron, but i think the spirit of his "bingo" was a resounding agreement of what you have said, not an accusation. I believe he was responding more to the last few comments than your admission that you are a dealer. I am sure Ron will correct me if i am wrong. :)

i should've narrowed the quote. i was referring to the last sentence of your post :)

beat me by a few seconds, david. thanks.

Yeah, I deal.

Have done so for almost as long as I've collected keris --- 50 something years.

Since about 1977 I've dealt internationally; used to do it with letters and photos, now I do it with my website.

I think that most keris aligned people who frequent the E.E.W. site already know this.



If it is deemed desireable to identify those of us who deal, it would suggest that a group mailing go out to all members so that a data base can be established, and that all new members should be required to ID themselves as dealers if in fact they are.

Personally, I feel that it is not so much the fact that somebody deals that is what should be addressed, as the use of a specific posting for commercial purposes. Yes, possibly the membership should be made aware of who the dealers are, but more important they should be made aware of an item posted for comment that will be offered for sale in the near future.



We now have what I believe to be a good cross sectional representation of members opinions.

There has been a lot of very valid comment.

I would suggest that now we have a general direction, specific objectives of any changes in rules should be identified.

To my way of thinking there are two overall objectives:-

1) --- to identify all unethical dealers

2) --- to give the swap forum back to pure collectors


Perhaps we could now have some suggestions of objectives that could be considered by our moderators.

When the objectives have been agreed to by our moderators, then it will be possible to put in place a mechanism that will permit achievement of the identified objectives.

This thread has drawn a lot of interest, and a number of people have come forward and stated an opinion.

It is my firm conviction that the management of this site will act to improve this facility and will put in place some revised policies in order to keep the character of the site as it was originally intended:- a place for collectors to exchange information and to learn.

Once those new policies are in place I am certain that management will not enter into any discussion on either the new policies or upon their application.

Once any new policies are in place there will be no further opportunity for comment.


At the present time we have a unique opportunity:-

we, the membership of this Forum, have been permitted to state our views in this matter, and to assist management in the formulation of policy.

I most sincerely advise that we do not let this opportunity pass.


The time has come for us to let management know what we want any changes in policy to do, in other words to state what we believe the objectives of change in policy should seek to achieve.


I have stated what I think these objectives should be.

Are my objectives adequate?

Or are they inadequate?

Do they need to be changed?

Do they need to be added to?


We cannot get to a new place unless we identify our destination.

The way to do that is to formulate a clear and achieveable objective.

Now is the time to do that.

Once management has taken its decision and acted it will be too late to change anything.

Apparently I was too cryptic before. Let me explain what I would like to see as this affects the entire board. I am not too familiar with the Keris forum, but have noticed the same behavior on the other forums with the same detrimental effect. It is clear some forumites don't mind being pumped for information, some do. A sub-forum where all the contributors know that the object is, or will be for sale would avoid any confusion and subsequent hard feelings. All who would like to contribute can, those who don't can avoid the threads. It should lessen the work load for the moderators as they will not have to be constantly policing the threads to warn, ban, lock, or delete the offending threads and members.

Anyone using the other forums for commercial purposes could simply be banned and their entire thread deleted. We can all help police the site, bring the offenders to the attention of a moderator, then ZAP, they and their thread are gone. I personally would like to see a one year statute of limitations on the object. It won't have to happen too often for the message to get through. We can then get back to the sharing of information as a group of like minded enthusiasts.

Thanks
Jeff

Thanks for your further input, Jeff.

I'm trying to encourage our members to move on from proposing remedies and identifying problems to the identification of what we wish to achieve, ie, objectives.

You have proposed something that could well be a useful and valid solution, but it is not an objective.

If we look at your proposals, perhaps these could be framed as objectives :-

1)--- that any items posted for comment and that the owner intends to offer for sale in the near future be clearly identified as such

2)--- that the use of the Forum for commercial purposes be banned.

Here we are discussing only those things that affect the keris forum:- Keris Warung Kopi; we cannot presume to attempt to enforce our views on the other Forums.

Once we establish what we wish to achieve we can then hope that the management of this Forum will put in place a mechanism that will will assist in the achievement of our identified objectives.

This mechanism could well incorporate your suggestions.

In my humble opinion, if some policies don't work as well as expected after implementation, or is even detrimental to the forum due to some unforeseen reasons, they should be subject to review. The only question is how they can be put up for review. I don't think any policy can be perfect from the start and stay relevant/unchanged over long periods.

I understand your concerns Kai Wee; the last thing we want to do is kill this place . ;) :)

Input please guys.

There are changes coming to Swap as well .

After the changes are in place if you have a problem you'll have to talk to a Moderator . :shrug:

This thread is it for input .

Rick

I agree completely Kai Wee, however, after the present upcoming changes have been made, we're back to where we were before this discussion was opened up:- Forum policies are a matter for management, and no discussion will be entered into in public.

This discussion is unique, in that we have the opportunity to give our views to management and those views will be taken into consideration in the formulation of any new policies.

As is the case in any type of organisation, policy must be under continual review, and must be reframed as the environment changes, and again, as in any organisation, this is one of the duties of management.

Failure to maintain adequate policy can result in an orgainsation losing its viability. That is what our current discussion is about:- the maintenance of the relevance and viability of our facility for open discussion of the keris --- and management is listening to us.

Lets grab the opportunity with both hands and make the most of it.

What ?
No more input, suggestions ???
If you haven't already spoken please do . :)

Well, for my part, I use the swap section only occassionally and I sell some things on ebay, but I never ever post items I have any thought that I would sell at a later date. So I'm okay with the 150-posts-to-use-swap idea, the 3-month-hold on pieces idea, and the appropriate punishments for (non-innocent) abuses.

There seems to be some issue involving some people wanting the ability to ID things for resale, which I can understand. However, I think a public seperate forum might be overkill. Why not just have a Sticky with a list of members who are willing to receive inquires of this kind via PM? Moderators can add or remove members from the list at their request, and members can simply include their user names and area of specality. I know that, personally, as a relatively less experienced collector, I am aware of those members who know a great deal more than I do, but I am tentative to "bother" them with banal questions. Such a sticky might serve as an "open invitation" to younger members, and the members receiving these questions might even encourage them to post interesting pieces to the public forum. Of course, if it is an ID for resale, then that wouldn't be alllowed.

My $0.02

--Radleigh

Interesting thread, gentlemen. It's caused me to actually stop contemplating my navel and think about something other than my day job for the first time in many moons.