Hi Jim,

This is way out of my field, but looking for something relevant in the other VOC blades thread, I found two very interesting kastanes.
Most of you probably know of them, but in case not I will add the pictures.

They were captured with a piha kaetta and a canon in 1765 by the Dutch, at the conquest of the Kandy's king palace.

PS. I've also added an image of the canon and the piha kaetta.

Perhaps just a matter of semantics, but it should be understood that the makara, while known to be a vehicle for certain deities is not, in fact, a diety itself.

these are wonderfull,many thanks, i think the piha kaetta is the best ive seen,rock crystal handle? were these the kings personal weapons?

hello again jim,does anyone have a picture of the keicho mission kastane, and is it known where the popham example currently is? i still feel we need to see more examples,are these the only two with definate provenance?surely there must be more?

ok again thanks maurice these then date to some time before 1765,and fair to say come from kandy royal workshops,so now if we take the main features of the style,and superimpose them on lesser examples we should be able broadly speaking to create a style attributable to candy workshops?royal and lesser?

Salaams napoleon... Well you could try #13 and #14 for the Japanese mission conundrum and http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14998 which also focussed on Hasekuras tour as well as the Popham Armour and is full of Kastane examples; none in my opinion which can be overlaid on others to determine provenance.. since it appears that individual artistic impression based on mythical beliefs is responsible for the variation.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The Break in Iron and Steel Production in Sri Lanka.
 

Salaams All...

The reason why there is an apparent gap in the detail regarding Pre Portuguese and post Portuguese kastane making in Sri Lanka was because ....

according to http://thakshana.nsf.ac.lk/pdf/VIDUR...%2019_1_30.pdf

Quote"In ancient times the caste system was mainly occupational based. As a result technology was preserved by being handed down from generation to generation.The caste system was developed to maintain the socio economic systems of the day.The social system changed with the advent of foreign rule and as a resulot the traditional technological know how was lost under colonialism.

Another reason for the decline was the cheap import of iron and steel implements imported from Europe and the inability of the indiginous iron producers to adopt new advances in technology".Unquote.

In real terms this would not have started to take effect much before 1550 during Portuguese partial control, though, once the Dutch, driven by the VOC, which fed on trade (and indicated by VOC stamped kastane blades for example) and the EIC of the English (though they did not apparently stamp blades of Kastane) until the modern era it seems iron/steel production would have been, at best, only scant. The break then in indiginous iron/steel production probably occured in the mid to late 1500s though some local iron/steel may have been produced in the Kandian Kingdom thereafter but dwindled further under English rule as they seized the entire country.

In conclusion I place this as possible evidence to explain our misunderstanding and the gap in proceedings possibly tricking the reader into thinking the Kastane was introduced when in effect it has been a purebred Sri Lankan Icon from its early pre European period. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams all.. We continue the Kastane Hilt analysis~

Quoting the relevant SriLankan names supplied by Jim at #40 viz;

Ath vasma or ath hade= knuckleguard.
Vari sarkuva-quillons also known as serependiya mana as they
are generally formed of serependiya heads.

~and assuming serependiya means also the heads on what we regard as the cross guard finials and mirrored on the knuckleguard.~

Serependiya are so closely associated with Makara that physically they are almost indistinguishable from them except that they appear as smaller finials in this case involved pretty well all over the hilt. They are commonly regarded as being associated as having been spewed out by the Makara and themselves issue foliage from their jaws. Occasionally they may be described as Naga (snake heads) Dragons, Eagle Heads, etc etc though in the parlance of mythology it would be impossible to tie down with pin point accuracy and since all deities of this nature are morphable entities why should they be?

The point about Deity or their form is that they are lavishly applied to this weapon offering both protection with associated monsters breathing fire, foliage or other deities and by dormant entities like the humano/crocodile on the handguard as well as the Kuriimukhta on the rainguard which rather than spewing evil destructive beings out... gobbles up danger...(in a reverse, almost defensive posture but in support of the main theme)... The whole item steeped in protective Buddhist-Hindu ancient talismanic elements.


Such then are the religio/socio traditional and historical implications so far illustrated on this Iconic sword that it defies gravity (always a contentious occupation when dealing with ethnographic weapons :) !) that any other group than Buddhist- Hindu could have had any input into its design ...or at least in its decorative construct..perhaps a further indicator of a purely home made / home grown weapon.

Shown Below ~The Kastane hilt illustrating the humano/crocodile face half way down the knuckleguard framed by emissions of fire/the protective swish of a peacock like tail.. from two accompanying Serendipiyya/ Nagas.(is a picture showing the odd humanoid face which is a deity often associated with Makara (though not always). Picture from Forum see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=2&pp=30 #56.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Kastane Hilt; Lion or...Makara ?
 

Salaams All ~

The Kastane; Lion /Makara Hilt.

It is not possible to draw a conclusion from the item seen at the hilt as to its Lion like or Makara like attributes. In fact some would say that it makes no difference what it is…and though it would be enlightening to know for sure; certainty is not a word that exists in the murky world of myth and legend. Personally I am happy with the “stylistic zoomorphic nature” of this Iconic hilt but always ready to consider your views.

The main hilt character… or should I say characters since the mythical description defies any singular pin point reasoning… and why should it? After all the myth is perpetrated by its variability, change of shape, chameleon like variability… It is legend, myth, religious meaning and …essentially how you as a believer in the ancient faiths/religious constructs of Buddhism and Hinduism see it. What’s more it is a physical hand carving made by an artisan who may have observed the creation in any of its 5 different life stages…plus the obvious inclination by artists to throw in their own interpretation. It may be noted that unlike the tradition of blade making the art of hand carving in wood, horn and Ivory contained no break in being handed down thus the tradition goes back more than 1000 years.

Put another way by http://www.amazinglanka.com/wp/makara-torana/
Quote” The central theme of the story is the glorification of Makara as the symbol of the Kurukula races. It is a composite animal, a concept of early cultures, a symbol of creative power, a symbol of “Sakti”. “It has the head of a crocodile, the horns of a goat, the body of an antelope or deer, a curved tail like that of a snake with the head of a fish and feet like those of a panther or a dog, with two horns on the forehead, its sides and bloated belly covered with leopard like spots, it is like nothing on earth.” Raghavan further states “The Makara embodies in its combination the fundamental symbolism of Traditional Psychology. It is symbolic of the Five Elements. In so far as it belongs to the Element Earth, it is like a creeping snake. In so far as it belongs to the Element Water, it is like a fish. In so far as it belongs to the Element Fire, it is panther like. In so far as it belongs to the Element Air, it is like a deer or a mountain goat. Extending this to the four elements of manifestation, the nature of the Makara is of a composite dragon”. Unquote.

Readers may believe one or the other.. some may suppose that one is more dominant a style on some swords than others or that the association between other deities are associated with the Makara but not the Lion or that the importance of a Lion over rides all else in Sri Lankan tradition so it must be a Lion. In the minds of some it looks like a lion so it must be one (a rather unsatisfactory view based on the above)

That then is a conundrum that may never be fully explained. There are, however, perhaps bigger fish to fry here… not least the burning question of European design transfer or home grown only?…Sri Lankan Purebred or a combination effort?

It is a conclusion I am working on but I await your input… Comments welcome.

Oh Forum… ? What do you suggest?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All... However I forgot to add something ... The Nimcha.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Charles+Buttin and in particular #9. With the main early Sri Lankan traders being Moors and the tantalising similarities as pointed to by the late Anthony North between Nimcha and Kastane members perhaps need to view the broader picture. The more ornate Nimcha hilts look even more remarkably like the Kastane....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams ... and... a most interesting link from library on comparisons on the Kastane and Nimcha guards ... at http://blade.japet.com/NIMCHA/N-protection.htm

At this point the Genie bottle seems to have its cork stuck however it is a perfect occasion to pause for a while to view the broad problems of consequences of trade and influence on The Kastane before the advent of European ships into the region.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

" The word singa is derived from the Sanskrit singa, "lion". The Batak term of singa has a predominantly magical, rather than zoological, so singa does not symbolize a lion. Instead, the singa represents the Nāga or Boru Saniang Naga, the primeval water serpent from the Hindu-Buddhist mythology. It is not fully understood why the name singa is attributed to this figure.[2][3][4] "

THE ABOVE QUOTE IS FROM WIKI. FOUND UNDER SINGA (MYTHOLOGY) THIS WOULD HELP EXPLAIN THE SINGAPORE HALF LION, HALF FISH AS WELL AS THE POMMEL DECORATION ON THE KASTANCE. SO PERHAPS THE LION LIKE ONES ARE SINGA AND THERE MAY BE A FEW MAKARA AS WELL BUT ON MOST EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN THE LION OR SINGA IS THE MORE COMMON. THE SINGA IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT IN BATACK CULTURE BUT HAS MORE OF A HUMAN FACE. PERHAPS MAKARA AND SINGA SPEAK OF THE SAME CREATURE IN MYTHOLOGY

Salaams VANDOO ~ Of the many tides of influence sweeping across the Kastane scene; religion, myth and superstition rate highly ..not least shrouded in time and the duality of Buddhist and Hindu influence but also shaken by the 3 invaders which have created further fog and a great deal of disruption..not least in the after development e.g. In European dogheads with pure Sri Lankan influence going the other way...Then the pan Indian Ocean regional effect possibly centred upon Jakarata geographically and as the obvious trading hub through which the huge Hindu-Buddhist influence is traditionally applied. The Javanese and other sister regions where Zoomorphic/Mythical hilts is observed would indicate some inter-fusion or influence and adds to the mystique of the weapon being unraveled.

I have viewed the discussion from many points of the compass and am generally of the opinion that the decorative influence is home grown whilst the basic form may well be derived from other styles irrespective of the fighting nature of those styles. I think the obvious link is in the Moors of Sri Lankan tie-up with trade... Hormuz, Sohar, Red Sea ports and inter regionally...potentially sucking in early European and South East Asian forms already discussed.

I have mentioned the tantalizing Nimcha effect and the obvious Indian influences and the reduction in Iron and Steel gap in activity caused by the invaders particularly the Dutch.

I think we are closer to a general overview of where we see the Kastane and armed with a vastly improved library of detail, at some future point, an even clearer picture may be forthcoming...As to whether the shape triggers in the mind of the beholder .. A Lion or a serpent/ Makara is probably not so important given the mythology (I simply accept that since it defies logic by definition) Once the prefix "stylistic" is added it may be irrelevant ?

Meanwhile thank you for your posts...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

Salaams All... I would suggest that a number of lead in articles and illustrations be added at about this point to create a foundation of support ideas for any sort of semi conclusions and mid research results so far...

I have seen some of the advertising for the brilliant work by Robert Hales and have taken one of those pages to illustrate 3 beautiful related examples ... The Indian Connection perhaps or part of it? The descriptions are the authors view and may not reflect the broader concept of "stylistic" as opposed to "actual"...from the mythical viewpoint ...but it is the artwork placed here that is important. :shrug:

kastane
 

saalams ibrahiim,hello jim,yes i fully accept regional and artistic variation,but my point is where weapons have a point of origin,you then have provenance as with the weapons from candy royal palace,artists do tend to be recognisable by their overall style,so i think that if you were to compare high end examples,you could identify one royal workshop, it is a begining i think but in order to do so need pictures of high quality swords,so anyone lucky enough to own such a piece could we see them please :)

Salaams Napoleon ~ We dont have a point of origin...That is the point. Moreover if we knew what artesans were working in which workshops and with what techniques and styles around the Pre Portuguese entry in 1505 we would be very nicely placed to engineer a full and proveable answer.. We have none of these... thus, we are insofar as these observations you note almost completely in the dark... Shining a light into those dark corners and unearthing what small details we can may lead us to a clearer image of how, what, where, when, why and who ?... regarding the mysterious Kastane.

For a substantial report on Royal Workshops please see http://www.craftrevival.org/Extralin...ageCode=P00014

Regards.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kastane
 

saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

The Nature of The Beast.
 

Salaams Napoleon... Can you tell me from which point in time / known place the Kastane comes? :)

What I can say is that we know a lot more now than we did a year ago, however, we may never know for sure about the full intricacies of this weapon...thus we may have to move forward using generalities "maybe and possibly" since there are so many imponderables.

Regional variation is always something we are looking for and close relationships appear in Javanese, Tibettan and Indian weapons ...but you may also have to look at the effects on the early system caused by the 3 invader countries and how that has thrown the link to their past traditions for example in steel making. Impact on design may have come from European styles and that is where the problem really difuses widely...with influence caused by possible early pre 1505AD(ie Pre Portuguese period) weapon imports from Red Sea, Arabian Sea and Gulf ports by the wide ranging sea merchants.. The Sri Lankan Moors.

It could be argued that we have created more questions than we have solved, moreover, the ball of string has only just begun to unravel... Who knows what other knots we may encounter on the way? :shrug:

There appears to be a close tie-up design-wise in the Piha Khaeta and its close proximity inside the Royal Workshops organisation. Shape and form appear similar and design swirls and decorative features, not least the spill over onto the blade in lavish stylistic decoration are interesting as well as the Zoomorhic hilt that so much resembles the Kastane monster deity though appears to have birdlike feathers and proportions in some examples, though not all.. See http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000498.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Napoleon,

What I would point out here is that the purpose of this topic in this thread is to discover and discuss more on the development of the kasthane as a recognized indigenous form of sword in Sri Lanka, and possibilities for its origins and the symbolism seen in its decoration.
Much of what we are discussing are examples and records of potential clues in these aspects, so actually Napoleon, what you are suggesting is pretty much what we have been doing and in point of fact we have been working on for years :) It is interesting to look through the search here to see the discussions over years and how far we have come though (my own research goes back only about 10 years).

Interesting observation concerning the identification of 'high end' weapons by stylistic association of certain artisans, and that factor does often come into play in identification of certain weapons in many cases overall . I would note that it is not a universally possible standard however, and in the case of the Royal Workshops in Kandy, it seems the artisans were collectively following the directives of those in power. With this circumstance it would seem that they were following guidelines in their work and that individual license would not be likely. It seems one reference I recall noted this was apparent in that these artisans did not sign their work in the Kandyan shops.

The issue of regional variation has almost typically been recognized as a problem in classification of ethnographic weapons overall as diffusion of forms through trade, warfare, colonialization and nomadic circumstances are ever present factors challenging such specific identifications often attempted.
What has been proposed here in a number of instances is that perhaps regional variation may account for some of the notable differences in some examples of the kasthane. It seems clear that certain similarly formed sword hilts in other cultural regions reveal distinct associations.

As Ibrahiim has well noted, we may have revealed more questions than answers here, but it that is often the nature of research and what is important is that these are what may lead us to key clues in the larger scope of the study.

I do very much appreciate your interest and participation in this study and its indeed good to see we share common views in our efforts here.
I also agree that I look forward to seeing examples of other collectors here, and on that note I am most grateful to Ibrahiim for furnishing the outstanding illustrations and references to date here.

All best regards,
Jim

Indian Influence on Sri Lankan artesan design.
 

Salaams All Note to Library~ The Zoomorphic styles of India need to be brought into focus since that is the largest and closest neighbour to the old Sri Lankan situation and must have played an important part in design and style influence..and since the religious form was broadly quite similar. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16363

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kastane
 

hello jim, salaams ibrahiim,firstly jim i fully appreciate that a great deal of work has gone into this subject over a great number of years,and more questions than answers is usual in any debate,here is one for you when does the knuckle guard appear?,pre or post portugese? ibrahiim the kastanes that are of a known point in time are one you yourself listed ,the sword of king raja singh 111,from the battle of gannoruwa 1638, and the marvelous pics offered by maurice of two swords piha kaetta and cannon captured from the palace at kandy by the dutch 1765,what can be said about these is that the construction of the first is not later than 1638 and in the second instance not later than 1765,so the point i am labouring over is that establishing chronology is possible, :) , i like the references to mainland india and its influence,and pictures of daggers still more food for thought , piha kaetta glad you brought these up as to my eyes earlier examples definatley seem more functional,another similarity with the kastane, and if any or all of this has been said before apologies,but it doesnt make it any less valid, :shrug: ,the purpose of debate is the advancement of the common cause,a question costs nothing,you can feel a bit of a fool for five minutes or spend the rest of your days wondering the answer (northern saying) :)

kastane piha kaetta link
 

salaams ibrahiim,thanks for the link to piha kaetta,the bird headed ones are most unusual,the one holding the ball,could this be an adaptation of the chinese dragon chasing the pearl of wisdom i wonder ,great link though regards napoleon :)

Salaams Napoleon...The dragon chasing feiry pearl design was indeed transmitted to Persia from Chinese style and is seen there on various ceramic and other materials as a decorative feature, however, insofar as a link to a birdhead holding what appears to be an egg on an Indian hilt (and regarding a possible design link to Kastane)~ that is a quantum leap and for me a bridge too far.

The bottleneck we are trying to penetrate beyond is the 1505 point when first the Europeans set foot in Sri Lanka..

Were Kastane produced before that time (and for how long?) or was there some collusion with the Portuguese working with Royal Workshops? In other words did the Portuguese introduce a basic design from European sword style upon which The Sri Lankan craftsmen built the lavish design or was it entirely unrelated...and a home produced item ?...If so is there influence from European swords into the region by other means perhaps from the Sri Lankan Moors or overland up the silk road then South through India or via other sea ports and thus other points of the ethnographic compass including Buddhist/Hindu sources from Java, Tibet, China and what is, if any, the connection to Nimcha style?

Your previous post refers to 1638 but that cannot be an accurate start point ... Potentially if the sword was home grown the date could be vastly earlier ...and simply could not be established suddenly at that point... thus I illustrate potential earlier production based upon the religious designs shown and backed by early proven steel production, Royal Workshops with known artesan castes; ...specialist horn and wood carvers, bladesmiths, Gold and Silver craftsmen etc etc

Of course notes on the general subject are most welcome however you seem to be intent on laying down a "how to research structure" that is simply not relevant(I regret that neither can I see a tie up in the two dates your refer to except that they are plucked at random from this thread), however, any researched facts on the subject to hand will be well received. Research so far has included countless hours of grinding through documents and references both in text books and the massive load of detail at web. Whilst we are not anywhere near a complete understanding of this weapon quest... "The Kastane conundrum" ...is well advanced compared to a few years ago..and we are at the cutting edge in that regard.

Put another way Napoleon... If you can see a gap in the research please feel free to examine that ... produce the research and fill the missing void... as you say ...the ink is free and there is nothing wrong in asking the question...and far less wrong in adding detail.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Interesting notes guys. I would like to clarify something first of all, that this discussion is not a debate, it is far more an investigative mission in the development and history of the kasthane in its distinct form as known.
We are reviewing known facts and establishing perspective and ideas with these and any pertinent evidence which is found to either support or dismiss the plausibility of them.
The objective of course is to establish a comprehensive understanding of how these distinct hilts developed, when, and more on the variant examples as well.

At this point, I personally do not believe that the zoomorphic hilt style developed from any European intervention, either Portuguese or others later. It is recognized however as I had mentioned in earlier posts that these hilts apparently influenced some European designs in degree as exotica appealing to mercantile interests and as cultural novelties.

Also, while of certain significance, the 1638 date with the Raja Singh III example would not establish a terminus ante quem for the hilt form, as we know that the Hasekura example predated that by at least two decades and was in Japan by 1622. The items acquired by the Dutch in 1765 by the same token do not establish a terminus post quem as these, while related in degree to design and style, do not signal the end of the kasthane as a form.

I think we have established somewhat notably that the guard system and quillons configuration does appear to have arrived in Ceylon most likely through the Moors, who in turn seem to have adopted this system from Italian swords. This influence, and associations between North Italy via trade contacts and North Africa at one extent west, and as far as Ceylon to the east, is noted by Anthony North (1975, op. cit.) and citing Charles Buttin (1933, op.cit). These hilts with this distinct guard pattern had been in Italy from the 15th century, and were actually the basis for developing the fully developed rapier style guards later in varying degree.

While we have not determined as yet, irrefutable evidence of the earliest known kasthane hilt in its more recognizable form with the zoomorphic figures, as well as the distinctly formed quillon system, we do believe that the knuckleguard was of course part of those Moorish influences quite early.

The Portuguese arrival in Ceylon in 1505 is quite contemporary with the North Italian hilts of 15th century we are describing as having probable influence on the vestigially designed Sinhalese hilts, however there is no reason to think that their arrival brought the hilt form. This would seem apparent as the diffusion of the hilt guard form extended to regions of Arab trade which did not have Portuguese influence, North Africa for example.

While there is a great deal of focus on the Royal Workshops in Kandy for the production of significant examples of the kasthane, I would like to note that the variant forms and apparently other contemporary production seems to have been present elsewhere in Ceylon as well. I think case in point here would be the numerous examples which were mounted with the VOC blades, primarily in the 18th century (in concurrent discussion on another thread) .
Obviously no kasthane produced in the Royal Workshops would be mounted with these blades, and the question remains, were these so mounted kasthane produced with these blades as novelty for VOC forces, or to supply auxiliary allied Sinhalese forces there?

As shown, it is about questions and answers, not debate. At this point any type of chronology or typology is being developed from these, and remains pending as we continue. Ideally, it would be wonderful to have these kinds of neatly placed facts and tables set in place with the arms we study, but these ideals are goals we can only strive for in hopes of some success. What is important is that we do so together, and help each other learn along the way.

PERHAPS WE HAVE JUMPED TOO FAR FROM THE ORIGINS OF THESE WEAPONS. WE DISCUSS MOORS, PORTUGESE, DUTCH, CHINESE, ECT AND PERHAPS THESE DID HAVE SOME LATER INFLUENCES.
THE ISLAND OF CEYLON HAD AN ADVANCED CIVILIZATION LONG BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THESE OUTSIDERS AND AS A WARRIOR SOCIETY HAD WELL DEVELOPED WEAPONS AND MARTIAL ARTS. THEY WOULD HAVE MADE THEIR OWN WEAPONS BUT THE STRONGEST EARLY INFLUENCE WOULD HAVE BEEN FROM SOUTHERN INDIA BOTH IN RELIGION, CIVILIZATION AND WAR. WE NEED SOME ONE WELL VERSED IN THAT AREA AND ITS EARLY CULTURE TO SEE WHAT WAS THERE AND WHAT COULD HAVE EVOLVED INTO THE DESIGN OF THE KASTHANE AND THE PHIA.
PICTURES OF TWO EXAMPLES OF INDIAN WEAPONS THOUGH NOT AS OLD AS THOSE WE NEED TO SEE EXAMPLES OF.

While there is a great deal of focus on the Royal Workshops in Kandy for the production of significant examples of the kasthane, I would like to note that the variant forms and apparently other contemporary production seems to have been present elsewhere in Ceylon as well. I think case in point here would be the numerous examples which were mounted with the VOC blades, primarily in the 18th century (in concurrent discussion on another thread) .
Obviously no kasthane produced in the Royal Workshops would be mounted with these blades, and the question remains, were these so mounted kasthane produced with these blades as novelty for VOC forces, or to supply auxiliary allied Sinhalese forces there?

Salaams Jim...Thank you for your great post. That is a hugely significant question. Though it is quite late in the Kastane story it certainly falls into the categories of development and style thus I wonder where these Kastane were turned out? Was it "The Kastane" only made in Royal Workshops...or in some form of VOC controlled environment?..Could they have been made by artesans in Jacarta? Or was there collusion at the time with Royal Workshops who made all the essential parts and then the blades were fitted finally by...by who?? :) Certainly they were made for the EIC formation and at many levels as rank badges of office and similarly in the Dutch period..Probably for the latter half of the Portuguese too... but then the light is dimmer as we try to examine the important early Portuguese period.. and beyond.

My own view is that the Kastane shape arrived earlier as you indicate with the great sea traders The Sri Lankan Moors and the influence of form happened spontaniously with that specific form at its heart..."The Outside Influence Theory."

The other plausible possibility and my alternative view, is that this form happened without foreign influence and within the confines of Sri Lankan sword technology, religious and mythical influence and design ... The "Home Grown" Theory.

The trouble is that we simply do not have an early enough example to substantiate either theory.

Naturally it can't be both... or can it?
A sword form that perhaps had virtually died out was resurected as an in-vogue badge of office and court sword...by foreign invader groups.. why not? In fact that is one way of describing the VOC/ EIC effect... and shown to be the case earlier with the Popham Armour...It is known that the blade production capacity dropped considerably in Sri Lanka caused by cheap imported blades by the invaders...

Fascinating indeed is the Hasekura episode, however, a good defence lawyer would have a heyday tearing apart the inconclusive evidence since the Hasekura Kastane was not officially presented(thus documentation is thin) and may well have been cross hilted on a Chinese or Storta blade. The passing on and custodianship in Japan of that item are somewhat clouded. Being obtained, purchased or recieved as a gift in the Philipines does not help the case..but it is nonetheless very interesting not least because of the blade marks which may or may not be Hasekuras.

Local influence is clear and similar designs appear even on another home grown variety .. The Piha Khaeta which sports similar Hilt and lavish top of blade spill over design and similar design patterning as the Kastane ... hardly surprising since they came from virtually the same Royal Workshop section as Kastane... and may have even been made by the same artesans.

Regional influence through Buddhist and Hindu fused history plays a huge part in the puzzle with a complete quillon style that predates European quillons and may in fact not be quillons at all... but simply a design feature..taken from Tibettan Vajra finials. At least they appear not to function as Quillons. (hardly a requirement anyway as a court sword)

The other guards are so adorned with decorative religious mythical clutter it is almost impossible to sort out a base form. Though is that necessary? I think not... We don't try to strip down the Piha Khaeta why do it with the Kastane. I tend to view the two items through the same prism. The potential as absolutely ancient traditional and highly ornate weapons is there...

So what about the main hilt feature? This is straight from the traditions... ancient religious and mythical (Whether Lion or Monster from deep Ocean or Jungle it matters not.) The regional similarities between it and Indian and Javanese hilts is remarkable. What is absolute, however, is that this is Sri Lankan.

Clearly the Workshops Royale were tuned to create such masterpieces with craftsmen in the caste system expert in each segment of the product ...and flowing back through the early 16th C and beyond to arguably the time the great migration South from India occured in about the 3rd century BC.

Turning the coin the other way shows the potential of the Moors to have brought in a European weapon in pre European times, from Hormuz, Bazra or the Red sea or in fact for a weapon to have gone overland via the silk road Persia and India onward to Sri Lanka via any sea port on the Indian Ocean..and thence to the attention of Royal Workshops for adornment..but I have to say I think it perhaps the weaker of the two possibilities. At the same time compelling suggestions are present see #21 which must be seriously considered pointing at European potential influence.

There is also the possibility the Moors brought with them an Arabian design as the base shape.. The Algerian Flysa dagger springs to mind... and in the same paragraph (because I cant fathom where to put the detail) is the conundrum, if there is one, of the influence of or onto The Nimcha.

Development shows how the Kastane went on to the designs of Dog Hilts onto English and Continental swords..rather late in proceedings and in another curious direction ... onto belly dancing swords !!

~ and the rest as they say is history ~

or put another way... come on Forum its your turn !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

Salaams Vandoo... Great pictures thank you... I was just looking at a deity headed Indian sword stick and your post popped up...! It is amazing what influences were around and Indian being bang on the doorstep must have had a lot of bearing on design... in Sri Lankan style. It is great to have such examples placed on thread as such good quality pictures bring the thread alive...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Salaams All; Note to library. :shrug:

No study of ethnographic arms and armour can be completed without some reference to the historical mixture of peoples in a country under scrutiny.. This is magnified many times over in a country like Sri Lanka and to that end and to give a balanced picture as to the possibility of the Moors(The Mercantile traders of Sri Lanka) having transmitted certain weapon technology and style I recommend a look at http://sailanmuslim.com/news/wp-cont...nkan-moors.pdf which is an astonishing account of the Sri Lankan Moors.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Salaams Vandoo~ There are many examples of the Indian Zoomorphic Mythical variety ... I bumped into this one ... A simple sword stick on a Yaali hilt (pot metal) without scabbard.. in Buraimi Souk... I think it safe to assume the Buddhist-Hindu linkage in decorative design upon the Kastane as being entirely home grown within the regional influence of other countries close by with similar religious aspects, though, the indicators seem also to point toward a possible European sword base design perhaps introduced by the Mercantile activities of the Sri Lankan Moors.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Great discussion, and interesting points guys!
I think it is important to remember that much of the iconography seen on the hilts of the kasthane are indeed those connected to Southern India culturally and religiously in large degree. These stylized zoomorphics and certain other features may be connected to elements of weapons from the Deccan, Madras (Chennai) and of course Tamil Nadu. There was as I understand strong Tamil presence which seems in the north of Ceylon predominantly so certainly influences would have diffused accordingly.

The weapons shown by Vandoo are a Hindu style dagger of chilanum/bichwa/khanjharli blade type with the zoomorphic pommel hilt and langet similar to other daggers of Deccan to Tanjore.
The sword with downturned quillons is of course of the form known in Afghanistan as the paluoar (to collectors though not necessarily locally), but which derives from Deccani influences. These carry Persian influence, most notably the quillons in creature heads (often termed dragon heads) and from 16th-17th c.. These sabres while typically associated with Afghanistan are actually a form of tulwar with strong Deccani associations, and the Afghan preference for the form its northernmost Indian context. Until the 20th century, Afghanistan was part of India (Northwest Frontier).

The use of zoomorphic hilts depicting mythical creatures important in religious iconography does not need to have relied on European suggestion as the adaption of the religious imbuement of arms seems to have well in place with that found in temples. While weapons in early Ceylon seem to correspond to those of early India in general form, the application of zoomorphic images of mythical creatures would seem to have occurred independent of European influence.

The adaption (vestigially) of quillon systems similar to those found on North Italian swords from 15th century onward seems likely to have filtered into Moorish settlements in Ceylon prior to the Portuguese arrival, though in timeline seems quite close as that was 1505 and these hilts from Italy are only slightly earlier. The similarities are discussed as previously noted in North, 1975 and Buttin, 1933).
As far as I am aware, there were no Portuguese sword forms using zoomorphic hilts, nor of course were Arabic or Moorish forms either in these times.

In references I have seen it noted that the influence of the exotic mythical themes on the developed kasthane style hits, and probably the piha kaetta, had the profound fascination and intrigue of the merchants and colonials of European countries . It would seem that these were exported 'from' Ceylon via these mediums rather than brought in.
By the same token, it would seem that the application of iconographic images onto weapons was likely a development from influence from the subcontinent and that the themes seen on the kasthane hilt decoratively likely developed there accordingly.
The hilt structurally probably absorbed influence from the Arabic and North Italian forms and was integrated with the decorative embellishment as noted.

It is my impression that likely early forms of Sinhalese weapons may have had some sort of mythical creature embellishment however that to me remains unclear. The adaption of the more developed guard seems to have been adopted around the same time generally as the curved sabre blades of course through Moorish influence (as noted by Deraniyagala, 1942).

That is my personal perspective at this point based on my own earlier research as well as the outstanding material that has been shared in this thread and the others connected .

FOR INFLUENCES ON A CULTURE ONE NEED ONLY LOOK AT ITS RULERS. WHO WERE THEIR ALLIES, WHO WERE THEIR ENEMYS AND WHO DID THEY TRADE WITH. THE EARLIEST INFLUENCES ARE USUALLY BASED ON ONE RULER EITHER FRIEND OR ENEMY HAVING SOMETHING THE OTHER DOES NOT HAVE AND THE SECOND RULER TRYING TO MATCH THAT AND TOP IT. FOR INSTANCE IF RULER #1 HAS A ELEPHANT TO RIDE RULER #2 MUST GET A BIGGER AND BETTER ONE AND PERHAPS SEVERAL MORE. THE ARMS RACE IS NOT SOMETHING NEW :rolleyes:
THE EARLY CONTACTS WERE NO DOUBT WITH SOUTHERN INDIA BECAUSE OF PROXIMITY AND THE CULTURES DID HAVE A LOT IN COMMON AND LIKELY HAD CULTURAL CONNECTIONS FAR IN THE PAST. SO IF THE SWORDS OF OTHERS ARE MORE DECORATIVE OR LARGER ONE MUST MATCH AND EXCEED THAT OF THE COMPETICIAN. WAR, SHOWING OFF AND FASHON ALL ACCELERATE INOVATION AND CHANGES IN A SOCIETY. SO I VOTE FOR SOUTHERN INDIA AS THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE.

The Kastane story may continue ad infinitum to develop and based on the excellent material unearthed by Forum so far.. For me, however, the culminating note is unveiled by Wikepedia the famous on line encyclopedia which states ~

The Kastane.

Quote"The Kastane is a short traditional ceremonial/decorative single-edged sword of Sri Lanka. Kastanes often have elaborate hilts, especially shaped and described as a rich mythical style inherited from Buddhism and Hinduism and in blending a variety of Deities including Makara, Lions, Kirtimukha, Serapendiya, Nagas, crocodile/human monsters and other dragon and gargoyle like effigies. Some are emitted onto the hand guard and cross guard with Vajra style pseudo-quillons whose finials are also decorated by minor monsters and a rain-guard decorated by the Makara or Serapendiya Peacock tail or fish scales which occasionally flows over and onto the blade at the throat. The Scabbard is occasionally seen with a miniature beasts head at the Chape also emitting a Deity or cloud pattern. Sometimes a small human face decorates the hand-guard which is a half human/half crocodile monster.

The main aspect of Kastane Hilts shows the central Deity accompanied by supporting minor Deity forms and the peculiar guard arrangement incorporating Buddhist style Vajra quillons, cross and hand guards and decorated handguard with further embelishment often spilling over onto the blades throat. In approaching a description authors should observe each Kastane separately since no two are identical and the main Hilt theme thus could be either of the variant Deities Lion or Makara/ Serapendiya etc. and since artist and artisan may well have applied a broad ranging interpretation of the form.

In 1807 it is recorded that the sword was an indicator of Official Rank so that the more senior persons would wear a more lavishly adorned weapon etc...and that this was also the intent though perhaps to a lesser degree in the Portuguese and Dutch periods.

They may first have arisen in the Kandyan Kingdom (15/16th century ?), perhaps inspired by European swords brought by the Portuguese period in Ceylon or in fact imported by the great Sri Lankan sea traders ... The Moors....The basic form being lavishly adorned so much so that it is almost impossible to designate a base pattern though North Italian or Venetian seems plausible. The hilt resembles South Indian weapon designs. The blade comes in a variety of sizes and it can be either straight or slightly curved. They are usually single-edged and most frequently are made in Europe(Solingen). None of the blades bear either Portuguese marks or English East India Company trademarks (EIC), however, there are many examples of Dutch influence with blades marked VOC. The single part of the sword that shares the similar characteristics is the hilt. It has two or four quillons. In the 4-quillon version the smaller two quillons are swept downwards toward the tip of the blade. In fact it is arguable if these are Quillons since they are mirror images of the Vajra projections on the Buddhist religious axe and perhaps serve no defensive purpose.

The pommel and the quillons are very beautiful as each of them ends with a carved Deity's head. The hilts are often encrusted with gemstones as in the eyes of Ruby stones and inlaid with silver or made entirely of silver or gold. The scabbards of the Kastane swords are made of wood or rhino horn and are decorated with brass, silver and/or gold. It is a testament to the skill of the traditional craftsmen operating in Sri Lankas ancient Royal Sword Workshops".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kastane
 

salaams ibrahiim,firstly im not intent on telling people how they should research,not at all ,what i was trying to establish,was known provenanced items,if enough examples can be gathered,might begin to show a broad frame work,starting for the sake of arguement with known portugese examples of the period,already been said i know,but does anyone have any? :D also yes point taken jim regarding debate/discusion stand corrected thank you,ibrahiim you refer to the examples plucked at random :) not at all just the only two examples i could find that stood a chance, speaking demonstrably,but as jim pointed out could be earlier(although not later) :) so could still be used in a broader framework, ibrahiim i do see a gap in the study its called typological chronology :D ,however bear in mind i am a relative novice in the subject of these beautifull swords,but one thought i had was the gemstones used,certain cultures favour different gems,a possible pointer?although i still feel more examples are needed,and in order for any of us to learn more more images,another thought has anyone explored the archeological record of sri lanka for swords,battle site finds? regards for now

Hi Napoleon,
Nicely stated, and I would like to note that my intention was not as much correction as clarification, and understand your notes toward research were more to your placement in coming into the discussion. While you have noted you are relatively new to the research on these weapons, I commend you for your enthusiastic participation and would point out that here we are all students on arms study in varying levels and degrees, but all working toward the same goals, learning together.

You are asking well placed questions, some which have indeed been somewhat travelled in other discussions, and some which have not. Your note on gems is interesting, though I am not certain that this complex aspect of decoration and often talismanic properties would be pertinent to our objectives here on the kasthane.

Good question on the archaeological aspects, and indeed there are numerous studies on Sri Lankan sites as well as the iconographic sources.
Deraniyagala , 1942, p.111) notes, "...the earliest swords appear to have been straight, leaf shaped and double edged, resembling bronze age weapons. Their shape suggests they were mainly offensive. A subsequent development was the wavy blade, and ultimately the curved scimitar type which increased enormously the power of a slashing cut, but sacrificed efficiency in thrusting or parrying (footnote: the scimitar type is probably of Arab origin). "
It is further noted that the early swords depicted on the Tivunka Patimaghara (misnamed Demala Malia Sigiriya) at Polonnaruva are of the leaf pattern and that others from Sigiyira in the Columbo Museum and of the 5th century are single edged and long, straight and double edged. Other excavations of 12th century site at Polonnoruva revealed long straight single edged blades with obliquely truncate point.

It is noted that these are some of the types depicted on frescoes and paintings up to the 18th century "..when the curved, scimitar shape with the lions head comes into fashion".

These interesting entries indicate of course that the early swords of Sri Lanka over a very long time were functional and decoratively austere until relatively recent times. Clearly the 18th century date for the lion head hilts is not quite correct as we are already aware of earlier examples, however I believe the author is referring to the ceremonial sword of rank rather than likely earlier forms bearing some degree of traditional iconography.

Typological chronology is of course an ideal goal, but one which is particularly elusive in the study of most histories of ethnographic forms as reliably provenanced examples are rarely available. Even iconographic sources are sometimes unreliable as artists often tended to be anachronistic in their work as they depicted events of earlier times. As you engage further in this and other studies of these types of weapons it is interesting to see how these kinds of discussions do benefit comprehensive knowledge by compiling data . In these cases, seen throughout the archives here many impressive results have been accomplished.

While you may be a newcomer Napoleon, you ask great questions and follow the course, and its great to have you with us on the adventure! :)

All the best,
Jim

Salaams napoleon. As you rightly point out we have very little to go on... Early examples are few 'n far between and this is illustrated by the need to look at even the most extreme cases such as artwork on the Popham Armour (to my mind the only artwork showing the Kastane on European armour) and a vague but fascinating early weapon now in the Sendai Museum in Japan.

Where we can... I think broad logic is allowed e.g. an eye to the European influence and since it is a weapon just slightly removed from the Arabian sphere...a clue as to how it may have arrived in basic form with the Moors...and of course their Arabian and African (and other regional) contacts. Knowing a lot more about the Royal workshops and the religious structure and the way people lived in the early days allows some balanced supposition...Where these nebulous ideas are not carved in stone it can be interesting to see where these ideas lead...though, a good detective will only have these penciled in the margin until proof positive can be made.

I was pleased to see you wheel out the big guns: Typological Chronology but that depends on examinig the early items, simply not available... The subject of digs is interesting ... but as you may be aware there are certain sensitivities in this regard and anyway you will be aware of cultural problems where Buddhist/ Hindu countries are very much not obliged to excavate and for religious reasons etc...The archeological ministry in Tibet for example is a very small organism... in fact it doesn't exist! and though I am not saying archeology is non existant in Sri Lanka I make the point from the cultural understanding generally... and of course you will be aware of the delicate nature of digs not unrelated to recent internal strife in that country but which is politically ringfenced.

What you have outlined is in fact very true... that unless a researcher is in country how difficult it is (but not impossible) to unearth the facts. When we started we had so little to go on... Now the library contains masses of detail never before viewed.

I think the study of gemstones is an excellent idea for you to undertake regarding Kastane ... another which I disguarded was the detail contained in ancient poetry which could yeild results.

One other field that looked promising was ancient martial arts weapons but I was unable to get sufficient detail as persuing that back 500 years and beyond proved impossible .. We know that the national martial art system was made illegal by colonial English powers punishable by being shot in the knees..Permanently crippling the individuals...The martial arts weaponry pre Portuguese (Pre 1505) may well have contained Kastane but absolute proof would be needed. Naturally that would be more or less game set and match regarding the time frame but I couldn't get much further back than about 1800 in this regard.

The VOC system is being viewed very successfully in another thread effectively setting down a thorough compendium of details on the entire Dutch period ...

Overall I think the rolling result... (because it never stops)... is excellent, though, we should never expect to fully hit the check-mate button... Total understanding may never be complete but I mean why should it?...since this is such a non worldly item drenched in mythology, religions, sliced with foreign powers interference and tainted in not a little majic ... not least in it's name "Kastane"...


Thank you for your post...Typological Chronology ! Bring it on !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Forgive me for mentioning this Ibrahiim…but isn't this Wikipedia entry written by YOURSELF? If so how can it unveil to you a culminating note in your own research? :shrug:

Interesting that you should say this Ibrahiim, because when we actually had a native Sri Lankan that was steeped in the culture and history of ancient Sri Lankan weaponry and actually had his feet on the ground in that country you did nothing but argue his very informative posts until he threw up his hands and left the conversation. Fortunately, the "Library" still contains those very informative posts. :)

Salaams David... In fact, no, it is not all my work though of course I am a contributor and why should I not be..and you already know this so why are you questioning in such a way? Indeed you pointed to the fact a month or two ago... though I couldnt understand why your tone was unsupportive then and I am baffled by it now... Wikepedia is the world wide webs encyclopedia... not mine... I just contribute freely. I find it extremely useful and since it is continually updated ..very current and accurate. It does, in fact, do exactly as I have penned ~ do you not agree?

I add that since my involvement as a contributor on Forum to this subject that the Wikepedia entry has been considerably and accurately updated with the latest current information researched by me. It stands therefor as a pinnacle of finely tuned detail in parallel with the latest doctrine on the subject...

Surely you would be delighted with that..from the Forum viewpoint?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Wikipedia is what it is. It is neither good or bad, accurate or incorrect. It is only as good as the information presented and the reference material used to back up that information. It is regulated by its users so an entity really has absolutely no academic integrity beyond its own bibliography, which isn't to say that there are not some very well researched and documented Wikipedia entries. The Kastane entry, i am afraid, is not one of them. It is hardly the "pinnacle of finely tuned detail" that you would make it out to be. This is not because the information is necessarily wrong, though so of it might be, but because the entry has no footnotes or academically reliable references to follow through on. All that are provided at the bottom of the page are a group of links to images on the Oriental Arms page and other sales sites, a youtube video of a kastane on the Antiques Roadshow (and i can assure you that these guys notoriously get their info on swords from these regions wrong) and an article on the use of the kastane as a belly dancing sword written by a guy who was banned from this site long ago. So my complaint here Ibrahiim is that it is rather self-serving for you to present the info on this page as being some kind of "unveiled culminating note" when it is mostly written by you without much academic backing. This has been a wonderful and no doubt useful exercise in speculation and conjecture so far. Don't get me wrong, i am not being sarcastic when i call it useful as i believe that speculation is a very useful tool in the process of discover, and we have certainly seen and read a lot of pertinent material in these many threads on the subject. But until we can nail some of our speculative thinking down to actual fact i don't think we have anything to congratulate ourselves over. ;)
By the way, since you are so keen on fine tuning your Wikipedia page on the subject, you might, as i previously suggested, want to reconsider the use of the term "Deity hilt". The lion, makara, serapendiya or whatever mythical beasts we wish to believe are represented on these swords are not, AFAIK, considered to be "deities" per se. Many Hindu deities do in fact incorporate various animal features in their depiction (Ganesha, Hanuman, etc.), but these mythical beasts are only associated with specific deities (i.e. a makara is often associated as the vehicle for the river goddess Ganga and the sea god Varuna) but are not seen as deities themselves.

... Which certainly have a value ratio far greater than countless perorations which, although containing some peripheral (but not intrinsic) info, make us ponder on their immense space occupied in the archives versus their juice, after squeezing them.
It is obvious that despite Jim’s industrious initiative to transfer this theme to a new thread under a multiple (triple) range of attributions, the nuclear point remains the same: the origin, date and outer influences in the Kastane. However it is not the hammering on the same nail head, time and time without count, that will bring light to the subject. No one forgets that certain approaches were repeated a zillion times … sometimes with the very same wording.
Resuming that, taking in consideration the recurrent (massacred) pre and post Portuguese ‘key’ to the matter ...
It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.