Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Mandau, it's not! What is it?? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5387)

kino 21st October 2007 12:06 AM

Mandau, it's not! What is it??
 
5 Attachment(s)
Tell me please

The scabbard is much longer than the sword. The sword fits right into the scabbard, which leads me to think that it's an original. I believe the little knife is detachable, but I don't want to force it off. The hilt is made of horn with similar decorated carvings on both sides of the pommel. There is a snake carved onto the scabbard. Also carved on the upper part of the scabbard is a human figure carrying a bucket or a pot. Wooden pegs hold the scabbard together.

Questions: Why is the scabbard longer than the sword?
How old is it?
What tribe?
Parang, what?

VVV 21st October 2007 09:09 AM

This parang is supposed to be Iban and the hilt resembles the Niabor.
In Spring last year I was within a couple of weeks offered 2 resembling ones from 2 different dealers.
Both of them regulary visit Borneo to acquire Dayak parang and I wouldn't be surprised if they shared some sources?
Before that I have never seen it and I haven't found anything even slightly resembling in any museum databases or in any of the books and articles written about Borneo.
Yours is the third example and I can conclude comparing them that:

- all of them have much longer scabbards than blade (which is strange).
- all of them have Niabor resembling hilts but the carved hilt motifs are quite different on all three.
- all of them have the snake carved along the scabbard.
- 2 of 3 have the bucket-man motif.
- 2 of 3 have several old coins attached to the scabbard mouth (one of them had 4 and the other had 16!).
- the knife is detachable but of a form that is not typical Dayak?
- the other 2 had more brownish scabbards with just a bit of red showing compared to yours.
- to me the carvings look 20th C and the motifs are not what I have usually seen on parang scabbards.

Michael

Dajak 21st October 2007 09:59 AM

Hi I see a few off these It is an copy from the old ones that I see .
Old ones have similar carvings and coins on the scabbard .

Not much around these ones

Ben

kino 21st October 2007 02:48 PM

Thanks Mike and Ben for sharing your insight.

Mytribalworld 22nd October 2007 08:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
This parang is supposed to be Iban and the hilt resembles the Niabor.
In Spring last year I was within a couple of weeks offered 2 resembling ones from 2 different dealers.
Both of them regulary visit Borneo to acquire Dayak parang and I wouldn't be surprised if they shared some sources?
Before that I have never seen it and I haven't found anything even slightly resembling in any museum databases or in any of the books and articles written about Borneo.
Yours is the third example and I can conclude comparing them that:

- all of them have much longer scabbards than blade (which is strange).
- all of them have Niabor resembling hilts but the carved hilt motifs are quite different on all three.
- all of them have the snake carved along the scabbard.
- 2 of 3 have the bucket-man motif.
- 2 of 3 have several old coins attached to the scabbard mouth (one of them had 4 and the other had 16!).
- the knife is detachable but of a form that is not typical Dayak?
- the other 2 had more brownish scabbards with just a bit of red showing compared to yours.
- to me the carvings look 20th C and the motifs are not what I have usually seen on parang scabbards.

Michael


And here another one.....

VVV 22nd October 2007 11:04 PM

Hi Arjan,

That is actually one of the two I was offered. IMHO the best one.

Michael

kino 23rd October 2007 01:28 AM

Mandaukudi,
Can you post photos of the blade?

Mytribalworld 23rd October 2007 03:15 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
Mandaukudi,
Can you post photos of the blade?


Here he comes........

Ben, did the original also have that strange knife attachment on the beginning of the blade in stead of the more usuall krowit? ( hooks)

It shows more to be a kind of hybride between nyabor with a swiss armyknife, maybe the dayaks added it to use that as can opener in the middle of the bush? :D :D

Arjan.

VANDOO 23rd October 2007 06:09 AM

4 Attachment(s)
I ALSO HAVE ONE OF THESE THE BEST I COULD COME UP WITH AS A IDENITY FOR THESE WAS A PARANG NYABOR. IT IS NOT THE SAME BUT DOES HAVE SOME SIMULARITYS BUT NOT THE STRANGE BLADE ATTACHED TO THE MAIN BLADE. I AM NOT SURE IF THAT IS A REAL NAME OR NOT BUT I THOUGHT I HAD THE ONLY ONE OF THESE ODD SWORDS SO FIGURED THAT WAS GOOD ENOUGH. I WILL TRY AND TAKE SOME PICTURES OF MINE TO ADD HERE AS THERE ARE EVIDENTLY ENOUGH OF THESE AROUND TO QUALIFY AS A DISTINCT TYPE. I HAVE ATTACHED SOME PICTURES OF A SWORD WITH SOME SIMULARITYS THAT WAS IDENTIFED AS PARANG NYABOR.

VVV 23rd October 2007 08:34 AM

Vandoo,

Somehow I recognize that Nyabor :rolleyes:
Look forward to see your example.
Where did you find yours?

Michael

Dajak 23rd October 2007 05:44 PM

Hi The ones I did see that the knife was connected with the blade different than the ones I did see here


Ben

VANDOO 23rd October 2007 08:33 PM

THE PICTURE OF THE NYABOR WAS ONE I GOT OFF THE NET OR FORUM SOMEWHERE AND WAS THE ONLY PICTURE I HAD OF SOMETHING SIMULAR. WAS IT YOURS? IF SO I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND MY USING IT, WISH IT WAS MINE :D

I AQUIRED MY EXAMPLE OF THIS UNSUUAL SWORD OVER 7 YEARS AGO ON EBAY FROM A SELLER IN SARAWAK, MALAYSIA. THE SELLER JUST CALLED IT A WARRIOR HEADHUNTER SWORD/MANDAU AND SAID IT WAS ABOUT 100 YEARS OLD. IT IS 36 INCHES WITH SCABBARD AND HAS A 22 IN. BLADE. THERE ARE NO COINS PRESENT ON MY EXAMPLE BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF HOLES FOR THEM AND THE REMAINS OF ADHESIVE. THEY ARE ON THE TOP PART OF THE SCABBARD AND ON THE FRONT AND SIDES. JUDGEING FROM THE PATINA THROUGHOUT I DO NOT DOUBT THE SWORDS AGE AT AROUND 100 YEARS BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS A WORKING WEAPON EVEN THEN BUT PERHAPS A CEREMONIAL ITEM THAT SPENT MOST OF ITS TIME HANGING ON A WALL. THE DRAGON NOT SNAKE AS MINE HAS LEGS AND THE MAN CARRING SOMETHING ARE MUCH THE SAME AS THE OTHER EXAMPLES. I WILL SEE IF I CAN ATTACH SOME PICTURES.

VANDOO 23rd October 2007 09:49 PM

COULD NOT GET PICS UPLOADED IN POST WILL TRY AGAIN.
AS USUAL NO CAN DO .TOO LARGE AND MY COMPUTER WILL NOT ACCEPT THE SOFTWARE TO REDUCE THE SIZE. MODERN TECKNOLOGY BAH HUMBUG!! :mad:

CharlesS 24th October 2007 12:56 AM

That sure is a nice Nyabor, huh VVV???!!! :D

VVV 24th October 2007 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
That sure is a nice Nyabor, huh VVV???!!! :D


And great provenance as well. ;)

Michael

Sajen 10th May 2019 10:18 PM

8 Attachment(s)
I have to dig up this thread, yesterday night I found by a eBay search this sword of the same type, see the seller pictures. The seller accepted my offer!:) Now I wonder if there are any new insights about this swords. :shrug: The scabbard shows like some others the snake, the coins (some are missing), the bucket man but also a centipede but the scabbard isn't so much longer as the blade. And when the pictures don't feint it shows some good age overall.
Any comments? :)

Sajen 10th May 2019 10:30 PM

Forget to mention, the seller stated that the coins are dated from 1930 upwards.

Ian 11th May 2019 06:33 AM

Hi Detlef:

Very interesting presentation of this sword type and yours adds some slight variations from the others but definitely in the same family. What nationality are the coins?

Regards,

Ian

Sajen 11th May 2019 07:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Very interesting presentation of this sword type and yours adds some slight variations from the others but definitely in the same family. What nationality are the coins?


Hi Ian,

I don't know from which nationality the coins, I don't have it in my my hands now and the seller don't stated something more as: “GOOD ORNATE WOODEN SCABBARD WITH DUTCH COIN INLAY DATED 1930- SOME COINS ARE MISSING, APPEARS TO BE MISSING PART OF THE HANDLE, THE EDGE OF THE BLADE HAS BEEN MISTREATED, SMALLER BLADE AT BOTTOM IS FIXED BUT LOOSE AND RATTLES” but soon as it arrives at it's destination I will be able to tell more. I guess that this are West Indie coins.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey 11th May 2019 11:46 PM

Cricket anyone?

Amuk Murugul 12th May 2019 06:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
.....
Any comments? :)

Hullo Detlef,

It's a Hivan/Iban Isaw; looks like a more "recent" model; thickness of blade at the tang for such a model would be <1cm (about half that of the "older" model).

Ref. item #7: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=njaboer

Hope it helps.
Best,

Sajen 12th May 2019 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Cricket anyone?


??? :shrug: What you mean Alan?

Sajen 12th May 2019 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
It's a Hivan/Iban Isaw; looks like a more "recent" model; thickness of blade at the tang for such a model would be <1cm (about half that of the "older" model).

Ref. item #7: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=njaboer

Hope it helps.



Thank you Amuk! :) So it's like stated from Michael an Iban sword. May I ask you from where you get the term "Isaw" for this type of swords? That it is more recent would also be confirmed by the date from the coins. Will post the thickness of the blade near the handle soon as it has arrived at it's destination. Thank you again!

Regards,
Detlef

Henk 12th May 2019 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
??? :shrug: What you mean Alan?

:D :D :D
Google for cricket and look at the pictures Sajen. Than you know what Alan means.

Alan, In The Netherlands and Germany cricket isn't a well known sport. ;)

Sajen 13th May 2019 08:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk
:D :D :D
Google for cricket and look at the pictures Sajen. Than you know what Alan means.


Hello Henk,

Alan may refer to the oblong scabbards from this shown Isaw swords! :rolleyes: I've googled before already.

Regards,
Detlef

asomotif 13th May 2019 11:17 PM

Good evening,

I found another example. But with much older coins….

http://www.bigyellowbird.nl/super-rare-sword/

This collector is also searching for more info on this "super rare sword".

The handle has the super brown and warm patina that should start anyones suspicion.
The odd side knife shows clear hacksaw marks.


One question ?
Why are we paying any attention to coins that are glued on a scabbard ?
I can add some roman coins to a scabbard. would that suggest early roman influence on Borneo ?
Sorry, get realistic. coins are nice, but in a lot of cases are used to fool you.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey 14th May 2019 04:35 AM

Detlef, sorry for my delayed response, I'd forgotten this thread and my comment.

Cricket is very popular in the West Indies, not so popular in the East Indies.

Perhaps the coins might be East Indian?

Amuk Murugul 14th May 2019 06:48 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Thank you Amuk! :) So it's like stated from Michael an Iban sword. May I ask you from where you get the term "Isaw" for this type of swords? That it is more recent would also be confirmed by the date from the coins. Will post the thickness of the blade near the handle soon as it has arrived at it's destination. Thank you again!

Regards,
Detlef

YW Detlef :) ..... My source is the people who used them.
As for the coins (I used to be a passionate numismatist in a previous life), they appear to be (can't be too sure from the photo) pre-RepublikIndonesia coins(see attached example). Please judge for yourself.

BTW ..... the obverse of the example states : Netherlands Indies while the reverse side has two scripts, Soenda (outer) and Djawi (inner). Both state: 1/10 roepiah.(I'm a bit rusty on this, so please excuse any mistake).

Best,

Sajen 15th May 2019 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
I found another example. But with much older coins….

http://www.bigyellowbird.nl/super-rare-sword/

This collector is also searching for more info on this "super rare sword".

The handle has the super brown and warm patina that should start anyones suspicion.
The odd side knife shows clear hacksaw marks.


Hello Willem,

Thank you for posting the link. This seems to confirm that there are real antique examples in collections. Would be interesting to know a little bit more about the shown example. Do you have informed the collector about this thread?


Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
One question ?
Why are we paying any attention to coins that are glued on a scabbard ?
I can add some roman coins to a scabbard. would that suggest early roman influence on Borneo ?
Sorry, get realistic. coins are nice, but in a lot of cases are used to fool you.


I don't pay much attention to added coins by ethnograhic weapons but in this case (by my example) I think that it confirm that it is at oldest from this date when not younger. It has arrived at destination and the description I get seem to confirm a relative recent manufacture. But you are correct with your statement.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen 15th May 2019 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Detlef, sorry for my delayed response, I'd forgotten this thread and my comment.

Cricket is very popular in the West Indies, not so popular in the East Indies.

Perhaps the coins might be East Indian?


Hello Alan,

Henk was correct, I know next to nothing about cricket. Still need to see better pictures from the coins but I think that Amuk is on the correct path.

Regards,
Detlef


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