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-   -   Keris Solo for comment (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25011)

David Gallas 4th June 2019 03:59 PM

Keris Solo for comment
 
6 Attachment(s)
I've got a really oversized keris that should be from Solo.

I don't know if this keris is realy solo or more north coast, i've put a normal Solo keris next to it to see as comparison.
The dress looks very Solo to me.

please comment

Jean 4th June 2019 06:26 PM

The scabbard & hilt are in Solo style indeed, but the blade with ganja wulung rather looks in Tuban or North Coast style, it seems to have age but other opinions are welcome.
Regards

A. G. Maisey 4th June 2019 09:41 PM

I tend to agree with you Jean.

There were some mighty big blades that came out of the North Coast, and also from the far East of Jawa.

However, I'd very much like to see a photo looking straight down onto the top of the gonjo before I'd be prepared to name a tentative classification.

Dress is certainly Solo.

Incidentally, the normal size keris, although it may have an indicator that could be regarded as Solo is also extremely unlikely to be classifiable as Solo.

David Gallas 5th June 2019 12:04 PM

Here some peksi pics

A. G. Maisey 5th June 2019 01:05 PM

Pesi David.

In Javanese "peksi" means "bird".

David 5th June 2019 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gallas
Here some peksi pics

David, your pesi photos did not show up yet. Please try again and let us know if you have any issues. Thanks!

David Gallas 5th June 2019 03:20 PM

3 Attachment(s)
sory about the pesi and the pics, another try....

A. G. Maisey 5th June 2019 09:02 PM

I am not able to classify this blade from a photo. The gonjo is not acceptable as Tuban, it has West Jawa elements, and elements seen in extreme East Coast Jawa gonjos. The same is true of the wilah itself.

Javanese, yes, more likely than not, but from a photo I can go no further.

David Gallas 6th June 2019 04:37 AM

Thank you for your replay Mr Maisey. The east Javanese option could be very plausible. Because the last owner from Indonesia was Madurese from east Java. The keris was discussed here by some specialists and they classified it as PB 9 Solo, what i doubted...

A. G. Maisey 6th June 2019 05:58 AM

David, I cannot confidently give a classification (tangguh) for this big blade from a photo, but I can very confidently say what it is not, and it is most definitely not a Surakarta blade. Not one single tell relates to Surakarta.

Where are these experts who think it is Surakarta located David?

Incidentally, "Alan" will do just fine.

David Gallas 6th June 2019 08:44 AM

In Holland, i live in Holland...

A. G. Maisey 6th June 2019 12:13 PM

Thank you David.

David Gallas 7th June 2019 04:34 AM

You're welcome Alan.

jagabuwana 16th June 2019 05:09 AM

Alan - what about this gonjo makes it unacceptable to be classified as Tuban?

From having seen the photo and before having read further, Tuban was my guess. My reasoning was the rounded sirah cicak and the buntut urang tapering to a point.

A. G. Maisey 16th June 2019 06:28 AM

If this gonjo had what we call nguceng mati form, with the tail coming back to a distinct point, I would be prepared to accept the slightly pointed sirah cecak as Tuban, its not really rounded enough for Tuban, but it would pass with a push. However, that gonjo tail has a slight curve and the end is more or less squared off. This is not acceptable for Tuban.

There's another thing too, I cannot really see the blade cross section, I'm not sure if it is ovoid enough for Tuban, in a couple of pics it looks like it could be slightly raised down the mid-line of the wilah, not really an ada-ada, but not rounded either.

Jean 16th June 2019 08:10 AM

I wonder whether this gonjo wulung is original, look at the mating with the blade and the neat & oversized hole around the pesi with a rustic wedge?
Regards

A. G. Maisey 16th June 2019 08:50 AM

The gonjo might not be original, but this is an old blade, and gonjos on old blades are often not original, the gonjo itself is old, the erosion seems to be more or less similar to the wilah erosion, the wedge is quite OK, the hole in the pesi could be a whisker smaller, but if the gonjo was removed during maintenance, something that is not at all unusual with older blades, natural erosion would account for the larger than necessary hole.

I can see nothing in this keris to cause me to question it, I'd accept as is, even if the gonjo was not the gonjo put onto it on day one --- and there is no way of knowing that with any certainty in the case of this keris.

Jean 16th June 2019 07:06 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Just for reference and comparison, I attach the pics of the sorsoran of 3 old & big blades similar to David's blade (dapur Tilam Upih) with original gonjos I think.
Regards

Athanase 19th June 2019 11:24 PM

Hello,
I received today a big Kriss with a strong blade of 45cm long.
I hesitate also between the north of Java or East Java.
The dapur is similar but with greneng.
I'll be posting photos this weekend.

David Gallas 20th June 2019 06:01 AM

I'm learning a lot of this topic, also the majapahit blade topic. My interest about the keris is more cultural and historical....

Let me share some info, but it's only past over verbally. It cannot be fully proven.

The keris should be a gift from the keraton of Surakarta, somewhere in the second part of the 19th century. Given to an east Javanese dokter who was also Wedono. (Wedono is dialect for face)

I also thought that the blade was Tuban, just because of the feeling of the blade, i don't have that detailed knowledge about the keris.

The story goes that the blade was re-shaped in Solo by a Madurese empu, what gives it the east Javanese feeling. That's why lot's of east Javanese keris have mid Javanese infuence. Solo and Jogya originate from east Java and have lots of Madurese craftmans and is seen as original east Javanese.
You also see that on the east Javanese Wedono keris.

I didn't know about the gonjo, nor of the real origine of the blade before beeing reshaped...

A. G. Maisey 20th June 2019 07:05 AM

David, while it is true that one of the meanings of "wedono" (wedana, wadana) is "face" (kromo inggil for "rai"), that is not the meaning in this context. A wedono is the head of an administrative district.

The idea of re-shaping the blade and thus transmitting an East Javanese "feeling" is very wide of the mark. The blade may have been cleaned up in Solo, it may not have been, but by a Madurese Empu? Is there any Madurese empu anywhere? Plenty of Madurese pandai keris, in Madura around Sumenep, and some in Surabaya and Malang as well, but in Solo? News to me.

Still, the term "empu" is pretty loosely applied these days.

Solo & Jogja originate from East Jawa? The people who live there will be real pleased to hear that.

Lots of Madurese craftsmen in Jawa Tengah? The only Madurese I've met in Solo & Jogja have been Madurese keris runners.

David, whoever gave you this story needs to do just a little bit of fact checking.

The reason I was thinking East Jawa was simply because of what I could see. If I were to describe a typical East Javanese keris from around Surabaya-Malang, it would not look remotely like yours, but an old blade from the far East Coast of East Jawa, just opposite Bali, might look like yours.

Jean 20th June 2019 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
David, while it is true that one of the meanings of "wedono" (wedana, wadana) is "face" (kromo inggil for "rai"), that is not the meaning in this context. A wedono is the head of an administrative district.


Thank you Alan, it makes more sense! :D
David,
I am very familiar with the type of story you were told ("kraton provenance"), I heard very similar ones for my own krisses purchased in the NL some years ago and learned to take it very cautiously....
Regards


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