Sword from Lombok -- comments please
 

This is one I have had for a number of years and was sold to me as a "woman's sword" from Lombok. I am not so sure about the female attribution, and even less sure about what to call it. It may be a pedang suduk. Recently another similar sword was on eBay from a dealer in Bali who called it a Cundik/Sendirung, which I cannot find in v. Zonneveld or any other reference that I have.

The sword itself is of good quality, with silver and gold mounts (yes it has been tested and found to be gold, although the percentage of gold is probably low). The handle is wood, and resembles pelet wood that we discussed recently on another thread. The precision of fit of the sword to the scabbard indicates this scabbard was made for the sword and may be original. The blade was polished when I got it, and a light etch indicates a pamor that may be ngulit semonko. The tip of the blade appears to have been reshaped a little. The blade is partially sharpened on the back edge, like many pedang.

Interested to hear what you think of this sword, and in particular how you think I should do a "traditional" etch to bring out the pamor of the blade.

Ian

Hi Ian , I like this sword very much .

I'd suggest the Capt's way of etching ; it worked quite nicely on his blade ... BUT ... I'm afraid Nechesh is gonna put the hoodoo on me if you took my advice . :eek: :D

Tell me one thing ; is the base of the ukiran carved so that it fills the gold cup/selut at the base or is that empty space in there ?

I've always wanted one of these (along with a million other pieces) ! :D

I agree with Rick, by all means etch it, but i would stay away from the battery acids myself. It looks like there is a nice pamor in there. :)
I also doubt the women's sword attribution. Would this blade be deemed a pedang?
And Rick, what's a Beantown Yankee boy like you know about Hoodoo anyway! :D

Born On The Bayou Dave (the Back Bayou) . ;) :D

Ian , I find the tip of the blade interesting ; done on purpose ?

Definitely done on purpose -- quite symmetrical and ground to that particular shape. Possibly a repair?

Ian

Ian , Nechesh , do you think there's any chance at all that this is a re-shaped keris blade ?

My guess is that this piece didn't originate on Lombok, but rather just ended up there.
It looks to be an exceptional specimen of a pedang suduk, but they were previouly known for a while as parang lusuk and even as "tempius", I believe in "Stone's".
My "gut feeling " about your particular sword is that it originated in the area of Indonesia that seems almost to be a piece of the Philippines at times, with Moro appearing pieces extremely common.....I'm sure you know where I mean, Ian, but I'm drawing a complete blank at the moment.
While these are currently accepted to be slashing swords, my own suspicion is that in actuality they were quite probably used as official executioner's weapons, in the same manner attributed to the long bladed kerises.
If so, damage to the tip from a body falling sideways faster than was expected could cause tip damage if it wasn't completely extricated in time, and would result in a needed repair similar to yours.
Your piece, more than any other that I've seen seems to lend itself to my personal theory even more than most as it would be eminently suitable and appropriate as a court sword, and likewise the relatively bloodless stab would seem to be favored in a palacial environment.
Mike

NO need for battery acid :D remember i just used it because i had sanded and sealed the grain-[i can tell this is going to haunt me :rolleyes: ]id personaly clean with fruit juice and make a mild staining solution like i did its very rewarding when the pattern gradualy emerges...its not like ull damage the blade u can always clean it again if your not happy :)

Oh Smashy, i'll bet you've got a few more pressing skeletons hanging around in your closet to haunt you than battery acid. ;)
Sorry Mike, but i think i disagree with you here on many fronts. IMO this is not the same blade form at all to the example you posted. It does resemble other cundiks i have seen, but i don't know enough about this form to know if this is truly one. I don't think this was ever intended as a slashing weapon either. I think it's origin probably is Lombok or Bali as the blade work looks very much like other weapons from that area. I also don't think this is an executioners weapon. How long is it anyway. The bloodless means of execution you mention Mike requires a fairly long blade.
Rick, i see what you mean by suggesting it may be a reformed keris, especially having a pecetan and all, but my gut feeling is that this is the blade's original form, tip and all.

Mike , I've gotta go with Nechesh on the origin of this blade , Bali or Lombok .

Very nice piece of traditional Lombok design, it is called a Cundrik or Sundrik.
A nearly identical piece is pictured in Djelenga's "Keris Di Lombok" on page 101. ;)

Could it be a keris pedang? It has a picetan at the base. Maybe it lost its ganja, and someone redressed it with modern-style fittings.

Hopefully I'm not clouding the issue here, but here's a keris I just got last week from Justin and I freely admit that keris are my weakest point in all of the PI/Indo/Malay weapons, likewise my least favorite.
This one, on the other hand, feels like a real weapon, with a blade that's decidedly non-pamor in relation to other kerises that I've had and seen, including some truly magnificent specimens of Mick's, and likewise has the deep grooving as in Ian's piece and many Philippine war kris.
Following the train of thought that seems to be developing, then this is likely a Lombok piece and the type that is being mentioned as possibly being what Ian's started as?

This is a keris panjang (literally "long keris"). It is not a weapon of war. Rather, it is a symbol of authority of Malay/Sumatran rulers. As you may have heard, keris panjang is sometimes used to execute people, by way of piecing the heart, top-down, through the shoulder clavicle.

The keris panjang I've seen are usually from the Malay or Sumatran areas. Yours is most likely sumatran, judging from the greneng. I have never seen a Javanese/Balinese/Lombok keris panjang yet.

Mike, that looks like a keris panjang, sometimes referred to as an executioners keris and my guess would be for a Sumatran origin. The pics are a bit dark on my screen, but this looks like it might be a 20thC example.

looks like Kai Wee and i were posting at the same time. Nice to see we are in agreement. :)

In this case I'm 100% the student and you gentlemen are demonstrating EXACTLY why.
Normally, I have a fairly discerning eye when it comes to detail and right after I posted the photos of my newest aquisition I was struck by the similarity of the "ferule" (sorry guys, no offense intended **grin**) which is once again unlike anything that I've previously seen on a keris, and after reading Ian's comments about his, it dawned on me that the metal also doesn't appear to be normal brass/bronze, so I'll get it checked as well.
I have no trouble accepting everything that you said about this one of mine although with its comparatively thick central ridge, it's the only keris I've ever seen that I WOULD feel secure in slashing with, ie like a real weapon, without fearing that the 20" blade would break (exactly the reason I got it! **grin"")
Age-wise, my own personal feeling is that this one is probably 1930'-1940's, with the wood matching the blade, pamor-wise....... thank you for the information, by the way, as it all fits exactly with what I was told about it.
Here's some better photos of the blade, by the way, taken in shaded daylight instead of midnight 100w incandescent .
With that said, I'll go back to being the observer on this one and hopefuly eliminate some of my confusion.
I now return control of your PC monitor.....uh, wait...that's the Outer Limits! Sorry. **grin**
Mike

Hi Mike. Thanks for the better pics. It's a nice blade, but i wouldn't attempt slashing with it. It has nothing to due with the strength of the blade, but the tang (pesi) and the way the hilt attaches to it. A good slash would be very likely to bend or perhaps even break that tang right off. Indonesian keris were definitely designed as stabbers, not slashers.

Thank you for the advice, and yes I remember reading about the short tangs on keris.
While I DO experiment with some of my pieces, the keris are strictly for display and enjoyment.
Some of the klewangs HAVE been used to clear exuberantly growing tropical Florida foliage on occasion, which has only served to make me admire their function when compared to modern machetes, for example.
One last question, if I may......the ferule on this executioner's keris appears overlarge for the wooden hilt and I notice the same characteristic on Ian's Lombok piece, almost as if sitting on a plate as opposed to the more normal tight fit on a "regular" keris, while both appear to be original to the entire weapon as evidenced from the very nice fit into the throat of the sheath.
Is this typical to any long bladed keris and/or sword from both locations?
As I said, I have NO real knowldege of either area and yet these similarities seem to leap out to my eye, particularly as there is a vast disparity between quality/status and origin of both in regards to Indonesian weapons in general.
Mike

I agree with Nechesh. My first thought was also a Cundrik, but a reshape of a keris panjang is a very good option too.

Thanks guys
 

Thanks to all who have responded.

I doubt that this was formerly a keris panjang. There is no obvious repair to the blade (although it could have been done very well), and the "back" edge of the blade is only sharpened part way -- in much the same manner as a pedang -- which makes me think it did not start life as a keris.

With a Lombok provenance from the previous owner (he collected it there), and the identification of a Cundrik from Lombok high on everyone's list, would it be reasonable to conclude that this sword is a Cundrik?

Ian.

Sorry Rick, I did not answer your question. The fit of the handle to the selut has a space that has been filled with a pitch-like material that has been ground to a precise, flush fit to the lip of the selut. Does that make sense?

Ian.

Thanks Ian , now that has me thinking .

That method of assembly seems a little suspicious , so now I'm wondering if it is a composite piece . :confused:

Don't know Rick -- looks original to me, although an old repair or assembly is possible. The matching of the guard to the sheath is perfect, and the guard is integral with the gold cup/selut. I have not seen any others to be able to comment on whether this is a normal arrangement. Perhaps Naga Sasra could help or one of the other Forumites with more specific knowledge than I have.

Ian.

Hi Ian , I don't really mean to play the skeptic , but that part of the construction struck me as a little strange . If the piece were used couldn't the exposed edge around the hilt tend to possibly injure the hand that wields it ?
Maybe the original ukiran has been replaced . :confused:



/I'm still lovin' it though ! :D

Rick:

You could be right.

The feel in hand is very comfortable with that raised cup, and in fact the forefinger and thumb rest naturally around it. I don't think the "edge" would be a problem with a stabbing movement because the disk guard would absorb the forward movement of the hand and the "edge" probably would not be an inconvenience.

It is an unusual construction.

Ian.

one just like it
 

I have a sword that is virtually identical to the one in this thread. The ferrule and the oval guard are the same although mine is made of humble brass. The shape of my hilt is the same also except at the base it flairs out so that it fills the cup of the ferrule completely. The prabot on the blade is the same also. The tip on my blade has not been damaged. The double fullers ending in a reinforced tip looks like the tip on some Balinese keris. The scabbard and its attendant metal banding looks the same also except for the fact that mine doesn't have a metal chape. I don't have a digital camera so I can't post pictures but if folks at the forum think they need to see pictures of my blade, I try to borrow a camera from somewhere. I tend to think that the existence of two such similar blades indicates that they are part of an ethnographic type and not a composite made from salvaged blades. This conjecture is strengthened by the presence of the Balinese style tip. I don't ever recall seeing this feature on a Sumatran panjang. Perhaps the similarity in size and shape to a keris panjang is a case of convergent evolution where similarities in customs and fighting styles caused weapons of separate lineages to attain a similar morphology.
Sincerely,
RobT

Looks Like a balinese pedang

Conogre, nice Keris Panjang, any other opinions on the keris. The blade looks older than 20C, at least I have seen a lot older keris panjang with very simular blades. Seems quite a few of these were made in 20C, why?, for collectors market?, or for status reasons? They either seem really old or really new. Sure isn't a lot of info on them.

Rob:

Any picture you can provide would be much appreciated.

Ian.

A couple things have slid by without challenge that I don't know are true, so I'm gonna try to catch up with them. I don't remember who said them, and it doesn't much matter, anyway. K(e)ris panjang, AFAIK "long kris", has been fairly extensively questioned as a purely ceremonial/execution weapon; I've seen and heard the contention that it was a combat weapon, and that it was a response to European thrusting swords. I don't really know the truth of this, but if it's been settled in a definite way, I haven't heard about that. Second, K(e)ris in general, in its true fighting form, is an effective slashing weapon. In the first place, the tangs are not as weak as many seem to expect from their size (and some of them are actually pretty robust); they don't just go around snapping at the drop of a hat; many, I say many, old "Western" butchering knives, used for slashing as their routine purpose, have very similar tangs; indeed, about identical. Also, some k(e)ris have oval-section tangs, though I increasingly suspect this is one of those things I didn't realize the unusualness of when I've seen it before. But mainly, I think there is a misunderstanding concerning the term "slash". First, a slash is not synonymous to a hack or chop. The aspect of this I will address at the moment is that a hack or chop is an action that distributes its force across the blade, while a slash, however, distributes its force largely along the blade, and along the tang as well, and a proper slash does not unduly stress a tang. K(e)ris is a competent cut-and-thrust weapon, and also, though I don't know the extent of its use thus within its native culture, quite capable of competent and effective parries (which also distribute their force along the tang). The main concern in slashing with a modernly mounted k(e)ris is neither the blade (if it's a fighting one, and not unduly over-washed) nor the tang, but the joining to the handle, or the lack thereof; the danger is that the blade would simply pull out of the hilt.

Tom makes a good point about the joining of the hilt and blade being perhaps a bigger problem than the tang when fighting with a keris. I have heard that in some places pitch was used for a more secure hold on the blade when a keris was to possiblly be used in fighting. I have not been able to comfirm this though. I did once receive a Bali keris in this condition, though it is impossible to know exactly when and by whom this attachment was made. Tom is also correct that there is a big difference between slashing and chopping. However, given the traditional manner of grasping the weapon, with thumb and forefinger actually holding the blade at the pecetan, i'm not sure if slashing in the usual manner is very practical, though this would not, i suppose, count out making short slashes with the blade. This grasp seems really to be most ideal for a stabbing action and it has been my understanding that the angle at which the blade sits is intended specifically for this stabbing action in order to more likely guide the blade towards the center of the body and the vital organs. I would think parrying might be dangerous with ones fingers on the blade, but maybe not.

Technically, the keris panjang does not have a picetan. At least most don't; they have that small circular cavity cut into the gandik area.

Furthermore, the form of the keris panjang blade does not aid slashing. It is long but narrow, and is seldom very sharp along the edges; a decently broad and sharp blade would have facilitated slashing. Also, while there are robust panjangs, there are also a substantial number of flimsy bladed ones, some barely longer than 18 inches.

The thing that really makes me dismiss the rapier-vs-panjang idea is the fact that the only time you see a panjang is during a ceremony involving some sultan or raja, such as coronation ceremonies. You don't see it being carried around by during normal every day life.

And of course, there is no record of a fight involving a keris panjang. Only of a keris panjang being used to execute high ranking criminals.

Here are the images of my sword. Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
RobT

Helps me; beautiful :)
The pinched grip is absolutely no impediment to cutting. In fact, I, and a great many other cooks and hunters, often hold my knives this way, and not only when board-chopping (a motion not much like combat), but when butchering (an action very much like cutting an opponant) as well. In cutting it aids control. It does seem an impediment to parrying. As I've said I don't know how parrying with a k(e)ris fits or doesn't fit into its native culture (and, to elucidate, I do not, for instance, even know the age of the pinchy hold, nor its universality; does anyone?); I just know that it can be done, and done quite nicely; I don't know (waxing repetitive; I'd explain why, but someone might not like the explanation) about its nativeness/traditionality, and have clearly (I hope) said so.

Rob:

Thank you for posting the pictures. Remarkably similar sword to the one I show above. They could almost have come from the same hands. Even the scababrd style is virtually identical. I would say we have a definite style of sword and not an unusual assemblage.

Noting the wear to the wood handle on yours, I wonder whether the handle on mine might be a replacement for a damaged original (hence its different fit to the cup).

Ian.

That would be my guess Ian , the only thing that puzzles me is that a replacement for the hilt would be easy to carve to fit . That brings me to the conclusion that the present handle was swapped out rather than a new handle having been carved . I suspect that this was done because of the quality of the wood that the present hilt seems to show .

Yes Rick, that would make sense. Perhaps the handle was originally made for a keris and got swapped over -- would explain the odd fit. Pelet wood is a prestigious material.

Ian.

Dear fellow forum members,

When I back in post #11 identified the piece as a Cundrik or Sundrik, I didn’t realize that 26 posts later the tread took on its own life so to speak.

We have been all over from a pedang suduk to a panjang, with variations and reshapes thereof.

Ian asked me to expand on the subject which I will be happy to do, I hesitated to bring the photos of Djelenga’s page 101 to the forum as the quality of the photo have a lot to be desired, but I will attach it as bad as it is:



English translation:
Cundrik, Sundrik---Its shape is like a keris without a ganja with a blade that is narrow, straight and rather thick. The scabbard is usually like an elderly person’s stick, however, sometimes it moves towards the shape of a pedang scabbard.

With other words, Djelenga reports that during the second half of the 20th century some people living in Lombok referred to this form of weapon as a Cundrik.

Now keep in mind that names for everything in Indonesia vary from place to place, even from village to village when those villages are only a few miles apart. What a Cundrik should look like can therefore become a matter of interpretation depending on where you are in Indonesia. For example Tammens in volume 3 wrote a lengthy essay as to what a Cundrik should look like, one dictionary simply gives the meaning of a Cundrik as “a short dagger” the meaning can therefore mean different things to different people.

Another thing that we need to incorporate is the fact that the population on Lombok was a mixture of people from other places—Jawa, Sulawesi, Bali—and they brought their own culture to Lombok. The original people to Lombok were the Sasaks, and over time they all blended in together.

The blades used have varied in style and form, from what the picture depicts to cut down pedang blades, sometimes old bayonet blades, sometimes a blade that was obviously a keris blade that had been altered, and this type of mounting was used for a while during the 19th century, and possible early 20th century.

As for the mystery of the handle I will suggest that it was simply replaced at an earlier time, with one that was carved as a Lombok Cundrik handle and available or it was fitted to the end users size of the hand. :)

Thanks. I really like these swords; I like 'em all, dang it! :p