Ethnographic Arms & Armour
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-   -   A gem made by Gem (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7019)

fernando 11th September 2008 03:58 PM
A gem made by Gem
 
5 Attachment(s)
Now, this ain't no junk at all.
It took me years to find out who the maker was; i finally had someone to track me on the right guy.
This "Beaumont Adams" type percussion revolver, dated 185?-186?, in 58 bore caliber, was made (or assembled) and traded by Edward Gem, one of the members of the Birmingham weapons lobby.
The seller who i bought it from, has acquired it in an auction in Lisbon. Considering the estucheon on the case cover and the bronze seal that was left ( forgotten ?) inside, this has belonged to a Portuguese count (earl). The shape of the nine pearl crown (coronel) has such characteristics. There were only eight ( or nine) counts at this stage in Portugal; it all indicates it belonged to a famous one, who was a military and a polititian.
Probably this was a rank presentation or a birthday gift ... or something of the kind.
Its pristine condition can be seen in the pictures. I love its rifling profile.
Everything is original, except for the case lining, which was in a tragic condition, due to some stupid restoration atempt; i had to rip off the original material and replace it with "velvet" sticking paper.
Fernando

Ed 11th September 2008 04:05 PM
That is a beautiful gun. Really superb. Your pictures are also excellent. What type of camera do you use?

fernando 11th September 2008 04:15 PM
Thank you so much Ed.
These pictures are from my files and were taken in 2005, with a "pioneer" Sony DSC cybershot camera. It was already four or five years old by then; now it's very tired and old fashioned. I can only close up 4", whereas any new lightweight "cheap" stuff can aproach 1". I guess it's more a question of stubbornness; i may take the whole day and hundreds of trials till i am satisfied. Also naturally the item to be pictured helps a lot :cool: .
Ah, i allways use a tripod; it improves accuracy. No chance to do other way, anyhow ( one handed i am :shrug: )
Fernando

celtan 11th September 2008 04:26 PM
Wow, what a beautiful collector's item Truly a heirloom!

Best regards

Manolo

fernando 11th September 2008 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
Wow, what a beautiful collector's item Truly a heirloom!

Best regards

Manolo
Gracias Manolo

Norman McCormick 11th September 2008 05:20 PM
Hi Fernando,
Now that's a NICE pistol. :) :) :)
My Regards,
Norman

fernando 11th September 2008 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Fernando,
Now that's a NICE pistol. :) :) :)
My Regards,
Norman
Thank you Norman :)
I enjoy having it.
Even the case is in an impecable condition.
... and there still is lubrication product inside the tin and original bullits inside the compartment.
Fernando

Paul Macdonald 11th September 2008 06:22 PM
A beautiful and well preserved piece Fernando.

You must be such a proud father :D

fernando 11th September 2008 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Macdonald
A beautiful and well preserved piece Fernando.

You must be such a proud father :D
:eek: Thank :eek: you :eek:

Jim McDougall 11th September 2008 07:48 PM
Absolutely breathtaking Fernando!!!
It is truly amazing to see the incredible forthcoming interest in antique firearms discussion, and the outstanding pieces such as this posted here. It seems that in we have in sense, 'awakened a sleeping giant'!!!

This really is terrific, and its wonderful to open new areas of learning (for me at least) as we incorporate the study of antique arms and armour in all fields. While my focus personally has long been as noted, on edged weapons, it is nearly impossible to not have been drawn from time to time to beautiful and historic firearms such as those posted here as we have begun this forum.

Thank you for sharing this beauty Fernando!

All the best,
Jim

katana 11th September 2008 08:50 PM
Wow Fernando,
I thought it was just our friends on the other side of the 'pond' that were 'gun crazy' :p :)

You're amassing quite an arsenal .....you expecting trouble ? :D

Very nice piece and looks in amazingly good condition.....with original bullets :cool: :eek: . Would such old bullets be 'stable' ? I am also curious about the 'gun laws' in Europe ? Are there special exemptions for older firearms ?

Kind Regards David

FenrisWolf 11th September 2008 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
Wow Fernando,
I thought it was just our friends on the other side of the 'pond' that were 'gun crazy' :p :)

Kind Regards David
I'm reminded of a bit of dialog from a movie called 'Barcelona', where a Spanish woman comments to an American about how violent American culture is, to which he replied, "Amercia isn't any more violent than anywhere else in the world; we're just better shots!" As the German officers discovered in WWI....

Fenris
proud owner of a whole BUNCHA guns
(though none of them as pretty as those shown on this board!)

lemmythesmith 11th September 2008 10:06 PM
Hi Fernando, that's a beauty!! I've shot one of these (almost the twin to yours) and they are a joy to shoot. :D

Regards, Graham.

Ed 11th September 2008 11:08 PM
Oh, Fernando ... Portugal!!!

God, my wife and I went there for a couple of weeks a long time ago ... Cascais to Porto to Sintra to the Algarve and back to Lisboa. What a great trip, I recall seeing the Crusader ruins and a gorgeous Templar church ... Sintra was it? I forget. And the military museum in Lisbon. I drove down an alley looking for it and bumped into a couple of machine gun toting soldiers and their officer. He looked at me and slowly wagged his finger back and forth. "No further" he meant. Gave him a big Dumb Toiurist (tm) smile and off we went.

Vintage Port and BBQ'd shrimp with Piri Piri.

I mainly remember the food..... barnacles at that great restaurant near Cascais right on the beach ...

Portugal, great destination ... don't tell anyone. ;)

fernando 12th September 2008 01:51 AM
Hi David,

Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
Wow Fernando ...You're amassing quite an arsenal .....you expecting trouble ? :D
I just didn't laugh out loud because the wife would have thought i'm getting worse :eek:


Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
... Very nice piece and looks in amazingly good condition.....with original bullets :cool: :eek: . Would such old bullets be 'stable' ? ...
In those days bullets themselves were inofensive; no cartridge, no ignition ... just loose pieces of lead ( i am not at home to post a picture of one).You would have to set up the actual ammunition by pouring gunpowder into the cilinder chambers and after ram the lead bullets into the said chambers, with a lever usually mounted by the barrel side, to achieve the final charge. Still you had to place ignition caps onto each chamber nipple, to be able to ignite the charge and shoot it off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
... I am also curious about the 'gun laws' in Europe ? Are there special exemptions for older firearms ? ...
In the context of the following thread, started by Flavio, i resume the current arms law in Portugal.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6885.
I can extend further, if of interest or something not clear. I can tell you things are not easy for antique arms sellers and collectors.
Fernando

fernando 12th September 2008 02:15 AM
wrong ... and removeable.

fernando 12th September 2008 02:17 AM
wrong... and removeable ... part II

fernando 12th September 2008 02:27 AM
wrong ... and removeable Part III.
A disastrous sequence of wrongly built postings.

celtan 12th September 2008 02:33 AM
Black Powder can last centuries without significant decay, specially if well packed or if made with Saltpeter.

Hmmm....Percebes AND mejillones. Plus some Octopus "a la galega" regado with Albarinho wine...

:)

(You guys must have something similar to pulpo a la galega and Albarino, portuguese and galicians have lots of customs in common. )

BTW: I own C-96s, P-08s (including one artillery plus the round magazine), P-38s, ASTRAS 900 & 600, a Mauser M95, a few modern and my carry, a SW-65...

I fancy about owning a MP-38/40, a MP-5, a Dragunov, a M-14 (or a M1/A2), a G3 or a FAL. But it's actually impractical. Too much iron to spread among the walls! The M14 alternative is very attractive, albeit impossible, being a full automatic..

;)

[QUOTE=fernando][QUOTE=Ed]Oh, Fernando ... Portugal!!!
God, my wife and I went there for a couple of weeks a long time ago ... Cascais to Porto to Sintra to the Algarve and back to Lisboa. What a great trip, I recall seeing the Crusader ruins and a gorgeous Templar church ... Sintra was it? I forget. [QUOTE]

That was the Tomar convent, with the magnificent Templar "charola".

[QUOTE=Ed] And the military museum in Lisbon.[QUOTE]

I go there every now and then ... the greatest world collection of bronze cannons in the yard.

~

I don't fancy much Port wine ... but i usually have the best for offer.

[QUOTE=Ed]I mainly remember the food..... barnacles ...
Quote:

We call them percebes; they taste like sea.



I won't ;)

Fernando

fernando 12th September 2008 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Oh, Fernando ... Portugal!!!
God, my wife and I went there for a couple of weeks a long time ago ... Cascais to Porto to Sintra to the Algarve and back to Lisboa. What a great trip, I recall seeing the Crusader ruins and a gorgeous Templar church ... Sintra was it? I forget.
The convent of Tomar, with its magnificent Templar "Charola".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
And the military museum in Lisbon.
I go there every now and then. The greatest world collection of bronze cannons ... is mostly in the yard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Vintage Port and BBQ'd shrimp with Piri Piri.
I don't go much for Port wine myself, but i usually have the best for offer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
I mainly remember the food..... barnacles ...
We call them percebes; they taste like sea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Portugal, great destination ... don't tell anyone. ;)
I won't ;)

Fernando

kahnjar1 12th September 2008 04:43 AM
VERY NICE PIECE
 
Hi Fernando,
A very nice piece and much the sort of thing I used to collect. Its a model 1855 Beaumont Adams revolver, and all the original bits seem to be still in the case---a real bonus!! Is there any marking on the mould?
Edward Gem & Co is not shown as a MAKER in my books, so I assume that he was the retailer. This was quite usual on these and more often than not, the RETAILER was marked on the rib, rather than the maker. I take it that the Trade Label which would normally be inside the lid of the case is no longer there? A lot of these revolvers were actually made by the London Armoury Co and were usually marked L.A.C somewhere on the frame or barrel. I see British Proofs on the cylinder. Anything on the barrel?
STILL ASHAMED FERNANDO??? I DON'T THINK SO!!! ITS A LOVELY PIECE!

Atlantia 12th September 2008 11:40 AM
Wow Fernando! Thats a truly breathtaking set.
You really don't see them in that condition often these days.
That would be the 'jewel' ;-) of any collection.

Reagrds
Gene

fernando 13th September 2008 01:22 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
...with original bullets :cool: :eek: . Would such old bullets be 'stable' ?
Here is a picture of the bullets. Also a test i once made with the bronze seal that, for some reason, was left inside the revolver case. This thing of the seal is an intriguing riddle i keep thinking about.
Fernando

fernando 13th September 2008 04:19 PM
Hi Stu

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... A very nice piece and much the sort of thing I used to collect. Its a model 1855 Beaumont Adams revolver
Yes, it has a Beaumont Adams silhouette, but with a few alterations, both in body as also in assembly, with some "luxury" optionals.
And it is obviously a 54 bore caliber and not 58 as i first mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... and all the original bits seem to be still in the case---a real bonus!! Is there any marking on the mould?
The only mark in the mould is the caliber digits 54. The powder flask is marked Bartram.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... Edward Gem & Co is not shown as a MAKER in my books, so I assume that he was the retailer. This was quite usual on these and more often than not, the RETAILER was marked on the rib, rather than the maker.
Well, not propperly as retailer in the generical sense. It took me five years to find out that Mr Edward Gem was one of a number of Birmingham Gunmakers and dealers who became a shareholder in the founding on the Birmingham small arms Co Ltd.
He has also been a factor for a number of Birmingham makers; i guess in a sense that, at a certain stage there were several "workshops" in Birmingham, making loose weapons parts, that were later assembled by those that sold the guns to the market ... retailers, governments and other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... I take it that the Trade Label which would normally be inside the lid of the case is no longer there?
I ignore if ever there was a Trade Label; some ignorant, thinking he was doing the right thing, has painted the whole case interior with some thick plastic paint, thus covering all traces of a possible label. One of these things you will never know the reason for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... A lot of these revolvers were actually made by the London Armoury Co and were usually marked L.A.C somewhere on the frame or barrel.
As introduced above, i don't think this was the case; more probably a "white line" specimen or, which also took place in those days, a customized and or personalized specimen, ordered with instructions not to bring any maker's codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... I see British Proofs on the cylinder. Anything on the barrel?
Yes, both Birmingham and London proof marks on both cylinder and barrel

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... STILL ASHAMED FERNANDO??? I DON'T THINK SO!!! ITS A LOVELY PIECE!
Well, they are not all junk :shrug:

Fernando

katana 13th September 2008 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Here is a picture of the bullets. Also a test i once made with the bronze seal that, for some reason, was left inside the revolver case. This thing of the seal is an intriguing riddle i keep thinking about.
Fernando

Thanks Fernando,
seeing the 'hammer' I assumed that the bullets had percussion caps :o
Thank you for the information, my gun knowledge is 'limited' and was unaware that percussion caps could be used to ignite a 'charge' to propel a 'cast' lead bullet. I wonder whether it would allow 'experimental' use of various amounts and types of gunpowder to alter the 'characteristics' of the projectiles speed/range/penetration.

Regards David

fernando 13th September 2008 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
... Hmmm....Percebes AND mejillones. Plus some Octopus "a la galega" regado with Albarinho wine... :) (You guys must have something similar to pulpo a la galega and Albarino, portuguese and galicians have lots of customs in common.)
Yeah. Percebes, alvarinho e polvo. A good Portuguese labeled alvarinho is expensive; but not if you order it in jars, in little local restaurants or taverns.
I happen to live 90 Kms. away from Galiza. No wonder we have lots of things in common, including a similar language, based on the Galaico-Portuguese; both sides of the actual border were the same nation, over 800 years ago :shrug:

Quote:
Originally Posted by celtan
BTW: I own C-96s, P-08s (including one artillery plus the round magazine), P-38s, ASTRAS 900 & 600, a Mauser M95, a few modern and my carry, a SW-65... I fancy about owning a MP-38/40, a MP-5, a Dragunov, a M-14 (or a M1/A2), a G3 or a FAL. But it's actually impractical. Too much iron to spread among the walls! The M14 alternative is very attractive, albeit impossible, being a full automatic...
Hombre, caramba :confused:
... And was it to me that David (Katana) asked if i was expecting troubles ? :eek:

Fernando

fernando 13th September 2008 06:14 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Hi David,

Quote:
Originally Posted by katana
... seeing the 'hammer' I assumed that the bullets had percussion caps. ... I wonder whether it would allow 'experimental' use of various amounts and types of gunpowder to alter the 'characteristics' of the projectiles speed/range/penetration.
Gunpowder was tested before being cleared and put to service, or out in the market; in those days its strenght was highly variable and you couldn't risk to use it before checking the different lots. A device called (gun) powder tester or eprouvette, partly resembling a pistol but in fact with a dynamic mechanism, was used to measure its explosive strength.
Having it "homologated" for the distinct purposes, still you had the option to load your charge with a variable power, by adjusting the spout of your powder flask.
Bullets could also be round or pointy, depending on your preference.
BTW, just for curiosity, pointed projectiles were first introduced by Da Vinci.

Fernando

kahnjar1 13th September 2008 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Stu



Yes, it has a Beaumont Adams silhouette, but with a few alterations, both in body as also in assembly, with some "luxury" optionals.
And it is obviously a 54 bore caliber and not 58 as i first mentioned.



The only mark in the mould is the caliber digits 54. The powder flask is marked Bartram.



Well, not propperly as retailer in the generical sense. It took me five years to find out that Mr Edward Gem was one of a number of Birmingham Gunmakers and dealers who became a shareholder in the founding on the Birmingham small arms Co Ltd.
He has also been a factor for a number of Birmingham makers; i guess in a sense that, at a certain stage there were several "workshops" in Birmingham, making loose weapons parts, that were later assembled by those that sold the guns to the market ... retailers, governments and other.



I ignore if ever there was a Trade Label; some ignorant, thinking he was doing the right thing, has painted the whole case interior with some thick plastic paint, thus covering all traces of a possible label. One of these things you will never know the reason for.



As introduced above, i don't think this was the case; more probably a "white line" specimen or, which also took place in those days, a customized and or personalized specimen, ordered with instructions not to bring any maker's codes.



Yes, both Birmingham and London proof marks on both cylinder and barrel



Well, they are not all junk :shrug:

Fernando
Hi Fernando,
I had noticed a few differences between this item and the Beaumont Adams. The most noticable to me was the way on which the cylinder release pin was held. The Beaumont has a screw on the side of the frame rather than underneath as this one has.
The TRUE Adams mould has an oval shaped stamp with Adams name and the bore size--not just the bore number.
I am intrigued that you say that this has both London AND Birmingham Proof marks. MOST unusual in my opinion. Any pics?
Regards Stu

celtan 14th September 2008 01:28 AM
Hi,

Katana lives in England, currently a peaceful country, where the police mostly doesn't even carry firearms. Or has this changed?

I liive in San Juan, PR, a paradisical island which also happens to be the most violent corner of the good ol'USA.

Also, I collect weapons because I like them, they are beautiful. It's incredible how much effort and detail man places in their manufacture. Even today, many of our scientific advances are by-products of weapon's development.

I only shoot three of my guns at the club, and this sporadically, so I don't forget how to aim : ). The rest have never been fired...


BTW, I didn't know about this eprouvette device. I had seen a couple before, but I thought they were curiously complicated flintlock fire starters.

Thanks, learned something new today!

The sprouts you show adjust the amount of grains dispensed by the powder flask. (Pistols were usually loaded with 40-50 grains of FFG BP)
I have a couple english ones. One of them still has the original balls and caps, albeit sans mercury nitrate or BP, which I discarded.


Best

Manolo


See Pics:

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...eyBPFlask2.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...ieldflask3.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...ieldflask5.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...ieldflask7.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi David,



Gunpowder was tested before being cleared and put to service, or out in the market; in those days its strenght was highly variable and you couldn't risk to use it before checking the different lots. A device called (gun) powder tester or eprouvette, partly resembling a pistol but in fact with a dynamic mechanism, was used to measure its explosive strength.
Having it "homologated" for the distinct purposes, still you had the option to load your charge with a variable power, by adjusting the spout of your powder flask.
Bullets could also be round or pointy, depending on your preference.
BTW, just for curiosity, pointed projectiles were first introduced by Da Vinci.

Fernando

fernando 14th September 2008 04:16 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Hi Fernando,
I had noticed a few differences between this item and the Beaumont Adams. The most noticable to me was the way on which the cylinder release pin was held. The Beaumont has a screw on the side of the frame rather than underneath as this one has.
... plus a different chamber rotating lock ... an inverted turning lever instead of the horizontal sliding wedge; the various lubricating orifices ... a luxury detail. But also a difference in the frame, in the back upper part; and the hexagonal barrel that, besides having exterior sharper lines, has an usually seen and highly esthetical three rifle bore. As i said before, the global appearance of an Adams, but with a lot of alterations. This thing must have had a price much above that of an ordinary revolver from massive production.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
... I am intrigued that you say that this has both London AND Birmingham Proof marks. MOST unusual in my opinion. Any pics?
MOST unusual, you say ? Now you surprise me :confused:
Could it be because the seller was established in both London and Birmingham that he wanted to test his units in both proof houses ?

Fernando


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