Only a matter of language
 

No riddle here. Lavin talks about Spanish locks, which Spaniards call llaves (keys). Neal/Daehnhardt talk about Portuguese locks, which Portuguese call fechos, or fecharias (locks) ... also the term used in english.

For example, this is Portuguese:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=trigger+guard

Hola:

Pienso que falta una historia de las llaves (Lock) mediterraneas: todas se han influido las unas a las otras: de patillas, española, catalana o de miguelete; a la romana, a la moda, mixta, Fecho de Anselmo, fecho de molinhas, agujeta, todas con sistema de disparo horizontal.

Como ejemplo, vease el fecho de Anselmo y la llave a la romana....

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Translation improvement ...
 

Hello:

I think that a history is missing on the mediterranean locks : they all have influence each other: Patilla, Spanish, Catalan or miguelete; Roman style, a la moda (fashion), mixed style, Fecho de Anselmo, "molinhas" lock , "agujeta", all with horizontal ignition systems.

As an example, look at Anselmo lock and the Roman key ....

Affectionately. Fernando K

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Speaking of Anselmo, look sat this one:

.

Hola:

La llave (lock) que ha subido Fernando, de Ceylan, (colonia portuguesa) no difiere en nada de la que ha tratado LAVIN en página 172, dibujo numero 19, y según el,es una variante de la "agujeta".

Mas interesante es la llave (lock) primitiva de patilla, de la Real Armeria de Madrid, de la que se ocupa en página 152, figura 15

Hello:

The lock posted by Fernando, from Ceylon, (Portuguese colony) is no different than the one dealt by LAVIN on page 172, drawing number 19, and according to him, is a variant of the "agujeta".

More interesting is the patilla primitive lock, of the Royal Armoury of Madrid, which he deals with in page 152, Figure 15

[QUOTE=Fernando K]

Hello
I believe you meant page 157 which contains this drawing (below) of the primitive patilla you mentioned. And I agree with you whole heartedly that it is most interesting. I am fascinated by Sinhalese arms with the Portuguese influence as well.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/...ps359cfe42.jpg

Respectfully, miqueleter

Miqueleter, you have a PM in your box.

Hello:

Anecdotally, I would say that the locks of the spear, I.20 listed as the Royal Armoury, were stolen between LAVIN publishing and 1990, when the last inventory, according to a communication received from the curator.

Affectionately. Fernando K

An Anselmo lock ... a primitive one this time;

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The drawing of a Portuguese patilha lock:

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Hola, todos

Fecho de Anselmo. figura 1 de página 451 de "Espingarda Perfeyta"- Creo que se ha perdido el gancho de seguridad (dog-lock) pùes hay 2 perforaciones en la platina, y que corresponderían al gancho de seguridad y su resorte. Adviertase que el gatillo tiene un apéndice para que actúe el gancho, incluso con un saliente. Este medio de media monta, ya se encuentra en la llave de agujeta primitiva de NEAL, descrita por LAVIN en pagina Nº 185, y que siguio fabricandose en la llave "a la morlacca" o "a la mojacca". También se usó en el "pany de transicio", descrito en "Pistols, trabucs y pedrenyales". de MARTI. SALAS y CALVO (idioma Catalan)

Llave (lock) de patilla de invencion El "calzo" de media monta (half-cock) no actúa en el extremo de la patilla, sino en la parte inferior de su curva y en consecuencia, los "calzos" están invertidos en la platina. Hay numerosos ejemplares españoles, y debido a la influencia recíproca, no se puede saber el origen.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, all

Fecho Anselmo. Figure 1 on page 451 of "Espingarda Perfeyta" - I think you missed the safety hook (dog-lock) as there are two holes in the deck, and they correspond to the hook and the spring. Note that the trigger has an appendix to act hook, even with a projection. This means half mounted, and is in the key of primitive lace NEAL, LAVIN described in page No. 185, and continued to be produced in the key "to morlacca" or "the mojacca". It was also used in the "Company of transitions" in "Pistols and pedrenyales trabucs". MARTI. SALAS and CALVO (Catalan language)

Key (lock) of pin invention the "wedge" half mounts (half-cock) does not act on the end of the pin, but at the bottom of the curve and thus the "shims" are reversed in deck . There are many Spanish specimens, and due to the mutual influence can not know the origin.

I have been able to purchase a book with information on many Ripoll makers, “Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros días.” Biographical Dictionary of Artists of Catalonia, from Roman times to the present. By J. F. Rafols and published in 1951.

Can anyone please help me with a translation of the CIRERA and SERRAT gun-maker families. Fernando is probably right about the date. So the barrel maker could be Llorenc Cirera and the lock maker could be Josep Serrat.

As always any help or suggestions are much appreciated. I KNOW that I should learn Spanish.

CIRERA, Jaume: Picture fo altars.

CIRERA, Joan: stock maker of Ripoll, century XVII-XVIII. With documentation in the archive del Museo Etnográfico de Ripoll.

CIRERA,Llorenç Barrel maker of XVIII century. With documentation in the archive del ME de Ripoll

CIRERA, Lluis Stock maker of Ripoll, first quaeter of XVIII century. With documentation in 1713 inthe ME de Ripoll.

CIRERA, Salvador silversmith, XVII century. In 1611, collaborate with Salvador Sala for the coining for the city of Vich.

SERRAT: Family name on the punch of a lock of a Shotgun, number 1370 of the inventory of ME de Ripoll, and on thepistol, number 2519, inventory of collection of Junta de Museos de Barcelona.

SERRAT, Eudald: Panyetarie of Ripoll, first third of XVIII century. With documentation, 1721 fron 1739, archive del ME de Ripoll

SERRAT, Josep: Panyetarie of Ripoll, second quarter of XVIII century. With documentation in the archive of ME de Ripoll.

SERRAT, Ponç: Serraller and panyetarie of XVII century, of Ripoll. With documentation, 1673 from 1679, ME de Ripoll

Sincerely, Fernando K

Thanks Fernando K! :o

I am a new member here from Germany and am reading the posts concerning miquelet pistols of Portugal with great interest. In my collec tion there is a small pistol without any marking but its style makes me think that it may have been produced in Portugal. I would be very glad if anyone here should be able to tell me if I am right or wrong. Many thanks in advance.
corrado26

Nothing screams Portugal to me, but fernando may be able to give you an opinion.

I certainly like the like the lock. Can you show us a photo of the front half of the barrel, the trigger plate, and the butt / butt cap?

Ok, here are the fotos of the buttplate and others.
All brass items are fixed with small brass nails. The foto with a very similar spring at the inner side of the lock I found in the book of Keith Neal, Spanish Guns and Pistols, Foto n°52.

Thanks für help.
corrado26

Welcome to the forum Corrado :) .
I am sorry that it takes someone with better knowledge (than me) to distinguish a Portuguese lock from a Spanish one. There are lots of similarities and often experts use the term "Portuguese (patilha) lock in the Castillian style".
You can also see this type of stock in both countries.
For some, the fixing of the parts with (plenty small) brass nails means Spain (Ripoll); but is also wide spread that, the position of the screw that fixes the barrel to the stock being in the inverted position, like in your example, means Portuguese.
We may also consider that having no marks or names tend to be Portuguese; Spanish examples were more often profusely marked.
It would be interesting to see a photo of the frizzen front face; is it plain or has any decoration ? Is the inner (striking) face removable ?
In any case this is a rather interesting pistol, Corrado; i wouldn't mind having it in my small collection ;)

Fernando, many thanks for your reply which confirms my impression that my pistol might possibly come from Portugal. As you can see the front of the frizzen is without any design but specially styled and its inner face is removable - on one of the fotos you can see the gap between frizzen and inner face.


Thank you very much for your help.
corrado26

You are welcome, Corrado :cool:
The last word will be for who is able to define its precise origin ... if ever possible :shrug:

Hello everyone

Would have to consider the Italian origin. First, because the gun (barrel) is grooved (fluted) and decorated with engraving, uncommon in the canyons (barrel) Spanish or Portuguese.

Second, by the strange method of fixation of internal lamina of frizzen. In the Iberian weapons dovetail is vertical and here I noted that it is horizontal. Also, have you soldier ?. Also, the configuration of the Iberian Miqueletes your frizzen is square, and here is faceted .....

Affectionately. Fernando K.

Miquelet pistol made in Naples
 

Just to show and invite comments some fotos of a nice pistol of my collection made by the Fabbrica Reale di Napoli.
corrado26

Points noted, Fernando. You sure know a lot more than us about these things.

Very nice example Corrado. Is it marked Fabbrica Reale di Napoli, or is just an information ? Where are such marks placed?

The golden mark on the Barrel reads "R F DI NAP"
corrado26

all

It is noteworthy that the ignition system known as miquelete is common to all Mediterranean countries such as Spain, Portugal, Italy, and others, and was produced as a copy, with small variations according to each country of origin. Thus, for example, in Spain we find lock "the Roman" and in Italy, the miguelete classic. The lock "the morlaca" or "the Mojaca" was produced in Brescia for export to the countries of the East (although copied by local dealers).

Do not forget that southern Italy was under the influence of Spain

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)