Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Club Trivia. Have a guess! (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23960)

RSWORD 26th May 2018 11:13 PM
Club Trivia. Have a guess!
 
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Someone, Colin I think, stated he wished there were more posts on clubs. I agree! I thought it would be fun to post a couple of unusual examples from time to time and let everyone have a guess. In some cases, I found a reference that I think ID’s it and in some cases I haven’t a clue.

Here is the first example. Quite long at 39” when measured in a straight line. This one I think I have found an ID but let’s see who can get it right!

Tim Simmons 27th May 2018 08:30 AM
The shape is a bit like a club I had fròm Nuie Island and also a club from Vanuatu, but the handle end is a bit odd for those lands. I might just gamble that it is European? Some sword clubs like this have been shown here from Greece.

I have done a little more research and I might decide to change my mind and think this is South American as well.

kronckew 27th May 2018 09:02 PM
It'd be easier if the whole club were in a photo...

RSWORD 28th May 2018 02:29 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far and yes my photography skills leave a bit to be desired.

Tim,

When I first seen this club it was listed as Native American but I thought initially it might be Nuie Island as well but a few months later I was flipping through a reference book and think I have found a match. Will post this soon.

RSWORD 28th May 2018 10:06 PM
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Hopefully I was able to capture the entire club in this picture.

RSWORD 28th May 2018 10:09 PM
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In Partingtons book I found a very similar example listed as Australian. The handle end in the line drawing has the same shape and the curvature is the same. Based on this line drawing my vote is for Australian. Look at number 3.

Timo Nieminen 28th May 2018 10:54 PM
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While the profile is similar to the Australian club in the drawing, the 3D shape doesn't look very Australian to me.

From the caption in Partington, club #3 looks like a boomerang-club to me, a flattened club that can be thrown as a boomerang (non-returning, of course). These are often called "lil-lil", and that should find some examples when used as a search term.

One from the British Museum: http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...13469&partId=1 (photos attached).

There are Australian sword-clubs with long round handles, but the caption "used as swords and as missiles" suggests to me it isn't one of these. One example of a long-handled sword-club: https://australianmuseum.net.au/image/e076955-club

Tim Simmons 29th May 2018 08:01 AM
I tend to agree not Australia. I wonder if it is some kind of throwing device.? The groove used as a track to launch a projectile of some form.

Perhaps it is a native American hunting stick? Maybe from arrid or desert regions?

Tim Simmons 29th May 2018 08:52 AM
It looks similar to a carp fishing bait throwing stick. Perhaps a rabbit or bird hunting stick that throws a pebble.

kronckew 29th May 2018 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
I tend to agree not Australia. I wonder if it is some kind of throwing device.? The groove used as a track to launch a projectile of some form.

Perhaps it is a native American hunting stick? Maybe from arrid or desert regions?
I was waiting to see if anyone caught that thought. think cesta. Originally used by (see flag hint below) shepherds to throw spherical stone or lead bullets & as a sword club. I've heard of one other like this. Not American either, tho their descendants are popular for throwing pelota in Florida, another form is the bait thrower tim mentioned, I have a similar device for throwing tennis balls for the dog:

Tim Simmons 29th May 2018 09:31 AM
I do not think it is the stick used in the Basque game. It could be a shepherds lead pellet thrower as much as a rabbit hunting stick?

kronckew 29th May 2018 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
I do not think it is the stick used in the Basque game. It could be a shepherds lead pellet thrower as much as a rabbit hunting stick?
Wasn't suggesting it was, it was a precursor shepherds tool, tarted up when they ran out of wolves (4 or 2 footed) to use throwing a hardball against the church walls on Sunday afternoons turning into the wickerwork version where they could catch it and throw it back, which you can't do with the club. They started by playing what essentially was handball, some bright spark probably said, 'hey. remember those clubs we used to use?'.

colin henshaw 29th May 2018 11:19 AM
An intriguing piece. The grooved part seems too long and near the grip to be for propulsion ? Its a bit like a Solomon Islands dance club, and the groove was made to reduce weight. Rennell Island ?? Don't see it being Australian Aboriginal.

Just a wild guess...

kronckew 29th May 2018 05:25 PM
Well, I suspect the groove is near the grip so you can hold the bullet in place until you get it into the right position to throw. Looks two-handed.

RSWORD 30th May 2018 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen
While the profile is similar to the Australian club in the drawing, the 3D shape doesn't look very Australian to me.

From the caption in Partington, club #3 looks like a boomerang-club to me, a flattened club that can be thrown as a boomerang (non-returning, of course). These are often called "lil-lil", and that should find some examples when used as a search term.

One from the British Museum: http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...13469&partId=1 (photos attached).

There are Australian sword-clubs with long round handles, but the caption "used as swords and as missiles" suggests to me it isn't one of these. One example of a long-handled sword-club:
https://australianmuseum.net.au/image/e076955-club

Yes, unfortunately the example in the book does not give us a feel for the thickness of the club. The book example is 35 1/2” which seems long for most boomerang or throwing clubs and after an exhaustive search in Partingtons, Oldmans and Webster’s this is the only example I can find that has the same shape grip. Plus mine is comparable length.

RSWORD 30th May 2018 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
I do not think it is the stick used in the Basque game. It could be a shepherds lead pellet thrower as much as a rabbit hunting stick?
I think it is too heavy a club to be an effective projectile thrower or hunting stick. At 39” and quite thick and heavy you would have to throw it at much slower objects. I would think you would want a lighter club with a bit of flex to really throw a stone or other object effectively. This club has no flex.

RSWORD 30th May 2018 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
An intriguing piece. The grooved part seems too long and near the grip to be for propulsion ? Its a bit like a Solomon Islands dance club, and the groove was made to reduce weight. Rennell Island ?? Don't see it being Australian Aboriginal.

Just a wild guess...
All great feedback so far. I have a hunch that a positive wood identification could be helpful. It is a blondish wood and I’m not sure if the channel at the top has been carved or if it is natural to the wood. I have seen blondish wood clubs from Australia but can’t recall any examples from the Solomon Island region. It is a hard wood with good weight for its size. The shape of the grip is not unlike some Native American clubs I have seen but I still lean towards the Pacific Islands.

Timo Nieminen 31st May 2018 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSWORD
Yes, unfortunately the example in the book does not give us a feel for the thickness of the club. The book example is 35 1/2” which seems long for most boomerang or throwing clubs
35" is a big boomerang, but it isn't hard to find examples of old boomerangs of that size. A few examples from the British Museum:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...86825&partId=1
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...01810&partId=1
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...89074&partId=1
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...13776&partId=1
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...07195&partId=1

CharlesS 31st May 2018 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSWORD
Thanks for the feedback so far and yes my photography skills leave a bit to be desired.
:rolleyes:


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