Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18049)

Matchlock 28th February 2014 11:58 AM

4 Attachment(s)
My friend Alexender Spriridonov found this nice miniature in an illuminated German 15th century composite manuscript now preserved in the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, pal. lat. 1632.

Depicted is a a man aiming an arquebus with blackened stock, multisided brass/bronze barrel and characteristically swamped gothic muzzle section at a stag.

In Gothic manuscripts you have to keep an eye out for tiny illuminated details decorating the borders of a page with arabesques - and for people within these.


m

Matchlock 28th February 2014 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov
It's one of the most beautiful barrels, I have ever seen. The shape of it is typical and at the same time unusual. According to my calculation barrel length is about 318 mm and the stock length is 952 mm


Your calculation is doubtlessly very exact, Alexender, ;) :cool:

Please accept my warmest 'thanks'!


Best,
Michael

Andi 28th February 2014 06:23 PM

Hello you both - thank you for this little jewell

Matchlock 28th February 2014 07:50 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Yes, Andi,


Precious jewels they are indeed, those tiny miniature illuminations in medieval manuscripts!

Even if we take into consideration that the monks who carried out those delicate works in the scriptorium of a monastery already employed magnifying glasses with wooden frames since at least the 14th century (!), the result is absolutely admirable!


Best,
Michael

Spiridonov 22nd January 2015 10:53 AM

Michael. Is it possible that such large touchhole due to corrosion? I'm afraid that with such a large touchhole at such small caliber will be very low compression. It seems that diameter of touchhole is about 6-7 mm (by the way is this hole canycal or not? what is the diameter of hole at top and bottom?)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...d=114756&stc=1

Marcus den toom 7th August 2015 08:53 AM

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These are some black and white pictures of haquebuts from Belgium. Sadly i could not find any other pictures of these pieces.

The first one is situated at the "Museum vleeshuis" in Dendermonde. It is broken at the breech what would sugest that it blew up. The overall condition also shows that it was found in the ground or at least corroded for a long period of time. The muzzle section with its front sight (?) is a bit larger than the ones in the illustraion in post 27. Plus they where most likely made in Belgium allowing for a somewhat later date of 1520-30.

The second one is also from the museum Vleeshuis and has been corroded very badly. It is also looks cleaned and will most likely no longer have the patina of almost 500 years on it. The expected hook is vague if present at all. The muzzle section is somewhat less prominent and large than the foregoing sample and can be dated to 1510-20.

The third one is also from the same museum and is in much better condition, but still cleaned. The decorations and the muzzle section would sugest a date of 1530-40s. There also appears to be a iron ramrod sticking out?

The fourth is a total mystery mainly because there is only one picture. It is stated to be a four barrel gun, which would be very rare. Though different from the meyrick gun (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=barrel+mace) it still appears to have some of the same features. But without any other picture this is just a guessing game.


More samples can be found here.
http://balat.kikirpa.be/results.php?...inkval=haakbus


I hope i am at least right about some of the dates, it is hard without our friend Michl. Hopefully we can make him proud by continuing his studies and use the foundation he gave us.

fernando 8th August 2015 01:37 PM

Good stuff, Marcus.
Carry on :cool: .

iskender 24th January 2016 07:02 PM

chinese cannon ming ?
 
3 Attachment(s)
gentlemen, this item was sold to me as chinese ming time. Looks not very chinese . data 10.7 cm long diameter 38 mm calibre 15 mm. greetings iskender

fernando 3rd September 2016 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock
in his post #42.
Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain: ...The first one is the plainest of this group of three; it is in my collection....The socket inscribed in ink now turned yellowish:
CASTiLLO de BERNAT (the rest illegible)
BARCELONA SPAIN (again the rest illegible)
1331 . A.D. ...

The name would be BERNAT DE SARRIA, a field military and diplomatic nobleman, the baron of Polop (1266-1335). Judging by the date inscribed in the cannon, it would well be that Dom Bernat was its donor ... or was its family.

Paddy T. 14th February 2018 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
I once paged a little book called Prestige de l'armurerie portugaise. La part de Liege and, there it was, in page 42, a hand cannon quoted as having been found on the Aljubarrota battle field.
.

Do you also know an other book where the Aljubarrota barrel(s) have been published? :)

fernando 15th February 2018 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paddy T.
Do you also know an other book where the Aljubarrota barrel(s) have been published? :)

Welcome to the forum Paddy.
The only other quotation on Aljubarrota barrels is that mentioned in post #35 of this thread, which is published in "Memorial das Peças de Artilharia do Museu da Marinha". However as it is assumed by its author, this example, as well as the one published in "Prestige de l'Armurerie", may not be considered factual evidence. I am afraid that the naming of Aljubarrota may only be seen with a symbolic connotation.
Read the whole contents of my posts #7 and #8.

Marcus den toom 21st March 2019 08:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
As i like to raise this thread from its depts from now and than, i present this (for me) unknown hand cannon, dated! 1485 (?)
If anyone has better pictures of this piece and its whereabouts i would be greatfull.

Auction description:
A Rare Wrought-Iron Hand-Cannon
Possibly 15th Century
Of waisted cylindrical form reinforced at the muzzle and breech, the former struck with a mark between the date 1485 and inscribed 'INII' above, the latter with recessed touch-hole with remains of lead lining, the mid section inscribed 'Taufers' and numbered '16' (rust patinated overall)
24 cm. high, 4.3 cm. bore
FOOTNOTES
Provenance:
Acquired in Basel, 1960

The inscription presumably refers to Schloss Taufers which is located in the South Tyrol

ariel 23rd March 2019 07:41 AM

INII likely stands for Iesus Nazorenus (I...?) Iudaeorum, i.e. “Jesus of Nazareth ( ?) of the Jews”.
Usually , it was INRI, with R meaning Rex, i.e. King.
I do not know what “I” means.

ariel 23rd March 2019 10:13 AM

Sorry, double post.

corrado26 23rd March 2019 10:40 AM

Could it be "JESUS NAZARENUS IMPERATOR JUDAEORORUM" :)

fernando 23rd March 2019 12:32 PM

Or if these initials mean something totally different ? ;) .

Beautiful cannon ... by the way, Marcus :cool: .


.

Spiridonov 16th May 2019 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
recessed touch-hole with remains of lead liningl

It does not looks like lining. I seems that it's just bigger hole of sleeve pressed on the rear side of the barrel

fernando 16th May 2019 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov
It does not looks like lining. I seems that it's just bigger hole of sleeve pressed on the rear side of the barrel

Yes, it does look like that indeed, Alexander.


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