Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Horn Jungayyan twistcore kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6091)

Bill M 9th March 2008 02:18 PM

Horn Jungayyan twistcore kris
 
5 Attachment(s)
This has some incredible metal in it. I need to stain the blade, but thought that I would go ahead and post it. The pictures really don't do it justice.

kino 9th March 2008 04:15 PM

WOW!
 
You sure have a magnificent collection of Moro Kris'. Looking at them makes me want to go out hunting for those elusive creatures.

I remember the former owner, he used to post here on the boards.

I think the baka-baka are distractingly oversized. If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion.

David 9th March 2008 06:14 PM

I don't know Kino, the baca-baca are what they are. Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.

rand 9th March 2008 06:25 PM

Twist Core
 
These twist core blades have an intrinsic beauty that makes ones stare in silent amazement, add to that the opulent pommels and you have a stunning combination that just makes one salivate.....

When I grow up hope I get one of these too.......

rand

kino 9th March 2008 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I don't know Kino, the baca-baca are what they are. Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.



David,
As I said in my post "my If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion". To me it would be more pleasing if it were fitted properly.

I know of some Keris collectors that change the dress of the blades and Japanese sword collectors that do the same to meet their own personal taste.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Bill M 9th March 2008 10:47 PM

As David said, they are tradition done and appropriate. Personally if I was having them made, I would have asked them to be smaller, but they look good enough to me.

Bill

David 9th March 2008 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
As I said in my post "my If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion". To me it would be more pleasing if it were fitted properly.

Yes, i understand it was just your opinion. It was your opinion that i was responding to with one of my own. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
I know of some Keris collectors that change the dress of the blades and Japanese sword collectors that do the same to meet their own personal taste.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yep, i as well have changed out worn pieces of keris dress such as mendaks and had sheath made for blades without. I have also replaced hilts on a couple of blades when the hilt was either inappropriate for the style of blade (i.e. a Sumatran blade w/ a Sumatran wrongko, but a Javanese hilt), a cheap more modern replacement that didn't do the blade justice, or just simply damaged beyond repair. Dress is most often changed on keris when the old ones have worn out to the point where it is disrespectful to the blade to maintain it as is. While the owner's personal tastes inevitably come into play when making such changes, for me they are changes which are driven more by necessity than taste and a desire to restore the piece to it's former glory.
With Bill's kris you would find it more pleasing if it were "fittted properly", but i'm not convinced that this form is improper. These seem like traditional and indigenously made baca-baca. They look like they have been on the kris for some period of time as well. I can understand that they may not be to your taste, or even mine for that matter, but for me that would not be enough of a reason to go to the trouble of changing them. To me they seem like a completely valid ethnographic variation, and therefore even more collectable from that standpoint, even if my own aesthetic sensibilities would prefer to see thinner ones.

Jazz 10th March 2008 04:47 AM

Quote:
I think the baka-baka are distractingly oversized. If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion.


Excellent call, Kino. Not only it's oversized, but it looked thin and unnatural. I'm with you on this one. I would definitely have it changed in a more traditional manner.

mross 14th March 2008 05:25 PM

Intresting. I think this is the first twist-core I have seen with a straight blade.

Jazz 14th March 2008 05:40 PM

I'd like to see the original handle to this blade. Wasn't this exchanged like a couple of years ago? :confused:

Rick 14th March 2008 09:21 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mross
Intresting. I think this is the first twist-core I have seen with a straight blade.


I have one quite similar to it; the difference is that my example has not been so radically etched to a topographic state as Bill's is .

kino 15th March 2008 06:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.


I see it differently. I don't see it as being attached to the Kris for some time or traditionally done. Even if it were on the Kris for some time and made in the Philippines, and traditionally done, if it's a poor job,..... it's a poor job.

Cato mentions in his book about Kris' having handles modified (elongated). to fit American soldiers hands. I have one of these examples. Am I going to cut it back down to it's original length? No, why because it looks good to me, even though it's slightly long, I would prefer to leave it as it is because it aesthetically fitting to me.

[QUOTE=David] I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. QUOTE]

A majority of collectors do, some more than others. Some won't admit to it.

In the end, all that matters on Bill's Kris, is, that he's happy with his toys.

Post more Bill. :)

Jazz 15th March 2008 04:05 PM

Quote:
I see it differently. I don't see it as being attached to the Kris for some time or traditionally done.


Me neither.

Bill M 15th March 2008 04:32 PM

4 Attachment(s)
I see a valid point in the size of these baca-baca, however I don't really feel like going to the trouble and expense of replacing them. I don't dislike them that much, and as a few people have stated, I am the one who has to live with this kris.

But mayeb someday.

I would like to see some pictures of baca-baca that members might find more appropriate to this kris.

Here are a few others. Also found one other straight blade twistcore.

David 15th March 2008 05:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
I see it differently. I don't see it as being attached to the Kris for some time or traditionally done. Even if it were on the Kris for some time and made in the Philippines, and traditionally done, if it's a poor job,..... it's a poor job.

[QUOTE=David] I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. QUOTE]

A majority of collectors do, some more than others. Some won't admit to it.

Obviously both you and Jazz know something about the origins of this particular kris that i am unaware of. Do any of you have a photo of this kris with it's "original" hilt?
I am not sure what you know that supports your theory that a "majority" of collectors change their ethnographic pieces to meet their own personal aesthetic. Certainly some do. This does not change the fact that for me it seems counter to the concept of collecting ethnographic items. :shrug:

kino 15th March 2008 05:48 PM

[QUOTE=David

Obviously both you and Jazz know something about the origins of this particular kris that i am unaware of. Do any of you have a photo of this kris with it's "original" hilt?
QUOTE]

I know nothing about the original hilt, so no photos from me. I just know of the previous caretaker.
Jazz do you have any photos of it?

Bill, Regarding the silver jungayan kris posted on this thread, I would love to see more photos of it.

Bill M 15th March 2008 08:44 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kino
[QUOTE=David

Obviously both you and Jazz know something about the origins of this particular kris that i am unaware of. Do any of you have a photo of this kris with it's "original" hilt?
QUOTE]

I know nothing about the original hilt, so no photos from me. I just know of the previous caretaker.
Jazz do you have any photos of it?

Bill, Regarding the silver jungayan kris posted on this thread, I would love to see more photos of it.


I really have to take some time and do some staining! But here are some more pics.

Jazz 16th March 2008 05:42 AM

I don't have a picture of the original hilt of the blade, but maybe it's somewhere in the archives of this forum. This specific kriss handle with its original blade was posted two years ago by the prior owner:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1637

Flavio 16th March 2008 11:20 AM

Don't you think that also on the "original" blade, the handle seems too much big? :confused:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz
I don't have a picture of the original hilt of the blade, but maybe it's somewhere in the archives of this forum. This specific kriss handle with its original blade was posted two years ago by the prior owner:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1637

kino 16th March 2008 04:56 PM

Bill, Thanks for posting the additional photos. The blade has beautiful lines.

Jazz, Thanks for the link.

Flavio, I believe it was made to be big, to show your status and rankings in the society.


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