Two handed swords
 

Hello,

Here are some pics of the same, plus another two handed German sword (16th century). Any information as to the second one too (origin, shape, etc.) ?

Thanks for all,

jm

Cerimonial ?!
The cat is the real thing, though ;)

.

Though the cat is no doubt by far the cutest thing in the pics ;) , I think the sword might be genuine as well.
What I do not like about this 'traditionally thought to be historic' kind of presentation in general is the fact that a) two-hand swords were not used by armored men, and b) the suit of armor is much smaller than the sword ...

Best,
Michael

i don't know, the cat looks like a modern reproduction. ;)

interesting serrated blade. reminds me of a tulwar recently posted (like today :))

the knights look a bit short*. i'd probably blame the display stands.

the cat looks like it's the right height tho.

*- just saw matchlock's post a minute earlier than mine :) GMTA.

Hi Kronckew,

Yup, seems I was somewhat quicker on the draw ... :rolleyes:

I tried to brighten up the images because I think the sword is worth a discussion. I like the wavy line ornament on the ricasso often found on such big swords.

Best,
Michael

Well understood that, when i suggest cerimonial, i don't pretend is not guenuine ... only not a combat one but, one to display power and authoritiy :o .

Fully agreed, 'Nando, ;)

Your comment was not the reason at all why I said I thought it was genuine. Let's see what Ottmar says ...

Best,
Michl

The second two-hand sword seems to feature a genuine North German early-17th c. blade.
It should however not be presented together with a late 16th c. horseman's armor and an early-16th c. style Katzbalger because this ensemble does not convey a homogeneous impression.

Best,
Michael

Two handed swords
 

Hello,

Thanks for all this interesting information. At the Barcelona Citadel Museum, you can also see the weavy ornament at the ricasso of a similar two handed sword (see link below).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6830857...n/photostream/

My German two handed sword was previously on display in a Dutch Museum. It has been dated to ca. 1570 according to the information I have on it.

It is 184 cm length and weighs 3.8 kg (ca. 8 pounds) :eek: .

jm

Cat and Katzbalger
 

As to my cat (Katz), it remains outdoor because it probably saw that the 16th century Katzbalger is missing its original scabbard.... ;)

Landsknecht captain full armor, ca. 1560
 

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

Hi Jean-Marc,


Thanks for responding so fast.

As concerns the Katzbalger:
I feel that we really need to see good close-ups of the ricasso section and the characteristic fluting which should be there. The overall length of the weapon should not fall short of ca. 88 cm, possible wear and working time shortening theoretically included.

As regards your ensemble: I did not mean to say it was bad by any means - which of us can present anything approximating that? Anyway, it is of museum quality, no doubt. It is both decorative and optically imposing. A fair compromise, no question.
After all, and just judging by a few pics, I think you have been doing very well! :)

Did you consider studying this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630



Best from Lower Bavaria for tonight,
Michael

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

Katzbalger
 

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

Link on Katzbalger
 

Hi Michael,

Indeed, I have seen the (outstanding) link to the 'Katzbalger' thread. It is the best thread I ever found on any forum or so (can almost make a very well documented book with it !).

Thanks and all the best,

jm

Hi Jean Marc.
Could you show a close picture of the opposite (left) side of the katzbalger guard ?

Hi Jean-Marc

Beautiful armour and swords! :eek:

Can we see some close-ups of the second two hander please (the straight edged blade one). Especially the hilt and guard please.
Thank you
Gene

Hi,
yes ton Bolk offers very nice range of weapons, especially his firearms are generally in a beautiful condition.
BTW the authentic....katzbalgers post #95 and #96 in the above mentioned katzbalger thread are offered/sold by him in 2009.

Can you please post some detailed pictures of the Katzbalger, if possible of;
the hilt , the running wolf and all the marks in the ricasso, also of the extremely damaged edge.

thanks+regards,

Additional pics of two hand sword and katzbalger
 

Sorry for the quality of some pics... :o

Additional pics for details
 

:D

Continued (pics)
 

:shrug:

Hi Jasper,

My friend - and I am completely with him - states that that was an old-fashioned first-half to mid-20th century dating unfortunately adopted by Seitz; weaponry has made progress ever since and the correct period assignment for this latest North German type of two-hand procesional swords should be '2nd decade 17th century'.

I attach images of a group of those North German two-hand swords acquired as 'Vortragschwerter' (processional swords) by the town council of Emden in ca. 1615 (!), and still preserved in the Emden Amory; one of them (see close-up) is comparable to the one in discussion.

The lower three photos taken by me in the Emden reserve collection in 1992 show a similar North German type, early 17th c., the grip missing, the ricasso with comparable engraved line decoration.

Best,
Michael

Another 'Katzbalger' Myth Busted ...
 

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

A sword similar type of the sword under discussion is also dated by Thomas del Mar end of 17thC.
see picture. but maybe he has also read from Seitz ;)

The sword you show in the last 3 pictures is a composite 2-hander.
with a cross-guard from the processional swords almost certainly made for the guard of Julius, Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg in Heinrich Grubenhagen.
most of these swords have original blades which are dated 1573,1574,....
a composite Guard of Julius sword with a similar blade as the composite you have posted has been sold by Sothebys 5-15 oktober 2005, schloss Marienburg and is dated end of the 16thC.lot 231.
lot 224-lot230 are original Julius guard swords and all dated 1573/74


I think the 17thC processional swords you are refering to have diamand shaped bars at the guard and flat blades. (Io flat bars and diamands shaped blades)

best,
jasper

I know nothing about genuine katzbalgers but I'm pretty sure that blade isn't from a Tuareg takouba or a Sudanese kaskara. The half moon stamps used are quite different on Saharan weapons (outline only, not stamping the entire shape like this, and are found in pairs, not the triple arrangement seen here. The profile of the blade also wouldn't fit for a kaskara or takouba. The scratched wolf and cross and orb are similar to some native African imitation marks however.

I don't have the expertise to judge the sword and obviously would bow to superior knowledge, but just wanted to say that the blade and the half moons do not correspond to any kaskara or takouba I've ever run across. :)

Hi Iain,


Here are just a few samples of Tuareg swords with double crescent blade marks from German sales of the past years; the sales dates are shown in the scans.

The marks on the last one are hardly visible but the description states that they are there.

Please cf.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...on-Makers-Mark

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=half+m...42&tx=16&ty=68

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14266


I should say that the experts on the Ethnographic section could tell you more on this topic.


Best,
Michael

I am afraid you didn't get Iain's point, Michl :o

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience. :)

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. :) You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Of course takouba and kaskara blades unfortunately often do turn up mated with basket hilts and the like to form modern fakes, but just looking at this blade, I don't think it's from a takouba or a kaskara. However I can't comment on the authenticity of the entire sword as it's very much out of my area of study and experience. :)

Cheers,

Iain

Sorry if I didn't.

I just tried to back up my thesis.

m

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify. :)

Best,
Michael

And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_...stribution.pdf

No problem Michael, I only study a pretty small topic so I am a very limited collector and I don't get to post much in the European forum! I saw a little chance so I wanted to help out if I could. :) I really enjoy reading the expert posts from you and others on European arms.


Hi Fernando,

You are very kind to also link to my PDF. :) Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

That's exactly true for me as well - just that I am on the 'other side' of the forum! :)
m

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour ;).

Well I could have linked to my pride and joy... ;) http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14757

Actually I think this blade with the three half moons could be some kind of later trade blade? Like the one I am attaching images of. These astral symbols with stars and moons seem to have been very popular in many areas outside of Europe.

The thing that seems odd to me, being a little used to looking at trade blades, is that the profile on this blade, flat, no fullers, not really any taper and rounded tip, is that it would be pretty unusual for a export blade for African or maybe middle Eastern swords. Actually I am struggling to think of what type of sword would have used it outside of Europe. :shrug:

They definitely do, just like the stocks of Turkish matchlock and miquelet guns, as well as those of Indian matchlock guns (and the mechanisms of the latter) carry on the early 16th c. North European tradition!

m

re; Katzbalger
Unfortunately it is not possible, merely on the basis of the pictures to determine the authenticity.
The blade of flat lenticular section without a ricasso came one more katbalgers.
A one-piece iron grip I have not seen before, but this does not mean it has never existed.
The simple chisseled spirally fluting at the s-guard looks looks unusual so do the flat terminals, but again this means nothing.


The damage to the edge at the point is in my point of view not the result of fighting but is added later! At the tip, there are several notches applied at the same angle and force, it looks simulated!
I agree with Michaels comments on the marks orb and passau wolf.
( maybe not African but it does not look authentic/European)

all this does not mean that the sword is not the real thing , but when in doubt I would always have it examined.

re: 2hand sword
it is clear it never had the fleur de lys inside the guard.

best,

Motifs on katzbalger blade are actually German 16th century
 

Hello all,

Thanks for the posts. For information, here are the comments of Mr. Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International forum) on the katzbalger blade markings:

'Nice sword indeed. From the distance it looks good to me, although in such pieces one should be very cautious regarding authenticity.

The markings are quite typical from the Renaissance and the Germanic area. Moons are easily found on German blades up to the 18th century, while orbs are a medieval theme often found in the next centuries.'


I have some clues that clearly show that these exact 'three crescent moon motifs' and three 'orb and cross' motifs are indeed German of the 16th century period. Have to find once more this information on the web and will post them in the forum ;)

jm

Etched motif of 'three moons' is IDENTICAL to a German city coat-of-arms
 

Hello All,

The IDENTICAL shape of the 'three moon' motif is found in a German city coat-of-arms of the renaissance period. In this city coat-of-arms that contains three moons arranged in a triangle, the shape of the moons is IDENTICAL to that etched on the blade of the katzbalger. I have to review the 15,000 German city coat-of-arms to refind it one more time (Siebmacher, year 1605; link http://www.wappenbuch.com/) !
At the moment, I have reviewed only about a thousand of coat-of-arms :shrug: !

Hope this helps,

jm

Katzbalger previously sold by Hermann Historica (similar blade)
 

Hello,

Here is a katzbalger that was sold by Hermann Historica (found it on the web). It appears to be similar to the one I bought from Bolk antiques, including at the level of blade and hilt. :rolleyes:

jm