Hi Michael,

each piece is unique, not mass production made ​​within a tolerance of characteristics , produced over a wide area and time and so must be judged individually so general rules have little use here.

for example the 90cm:where did you get the 90cm from, is this is an average of ?!? katzbalgers ?it has no function in the assessment of an individual piece.

Moreover, the upper katzbalger from Berlin has the same allover length as the one under discussion, in the DKM, namely 79cm.

this length is acceptable, for me it is unlikely that the katzbalger of DKM is shortened.

I agree we are of topic here!

regards,

Jasper,

Please do talk to any arts historian specialized in Gothic and Renaissance arts and crafts (not weaponry); he will confirm the proportional rule.
It is, among others, due to this rule that we intuitively recognize a period object.

m

Hi Michael,

Of course I know how it works, but to compare proportions and style characteristics is only used as there is little comparative data available.

to 'test" Katzbalgers with the 2 katzbalgers from europeische hieb und stich waffen (published by Mueller / Kolling / platow) is far too limited. The two from Berlin are just one of many katzbalger manifestations, as you can clearly see on the many landsknecht images you have posted.

I tried to indicate the borders of this weapon, a katzbalger has to meet all following three point of the definition.

first the word katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, (wie katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.



then the definition;
to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight mainly two edged blade, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3.basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


A 16thC estoc with an 8 shaped guard is not a Katzbalger because it does not meet 1 and 2 of the definition; not a landsknecht infantry weapon and the wrong type of blade not suitable for close combat.

best,

Hi Jasper,


I am with you on most of your points; concerning a few others I still differ, which however, as I wrote, is absolutely OK in my eyes.

I regret not being able to produce more striking facts, or add further substantial stuff, the way I hopefully could if this discussion was on firearms.

Therefore I suggest leaving the topic at this point, mutually respecting the good points that I feel have been made by either side. ;)


Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

thanks for the interesting discussion, but I do not expect that soon I would enter such a discussion with you about early firearms. :)

mit freundlichem Gruss,
Jasper

Two-handed processional swords, late 16th c., including flambergs, on exhibition in the Imperial Castle (Kaiserburg) Nuremberg; inaptly presented against a woodcut of early-16th c. date depicting much earlier Landsknecht swords.

m

Hello all,

I am rather a tenderfoot here and still a novice in collecting swords but I just wish to add something to this very interesting thread.

Regarding Jean Marc's swords the discussion focus about smith's marks, shape of blades, ....this to identify origin and authenticity.
So as a tenderfoot I ask a question...Does studying marks is enough in that case?

I learned that the best way to identify the authenticity of a sword is to focus first on the patina and mainly on the remaining rust. How rust is, lamination, colors...? and I am surprised that this subject has not been touched on.
Same thing with how the iron was worked, forged.
Isn't it easier to counterfeit hallmarks than a blade and its patina?

If anyone could give me an answer that will enlighten me.
Thanks a lot
Alain

For a wonderfully detailed painting of 1533 showing early-16th. c. two-handed swords, please see:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16116


Best,
Michael