have any examples of the Omani Spear or spears from the Gulf Regions/Yemen survived to date?

:confused: :confused:
My question was NOT about the straight DANCING sword. It was about the straight bladed NON (only approx. 2" flex) flexible Omani sword.
For you to say that these do not exist (para 2 above) is IMHO not true, as many of these are in collections of Forumites, and for that matter respected dealers.

Salaams ~ No I didn't say they don't exist... its just that if a non flexi blade has been fitted onto a long conical Omani hilt it isn't a dancing sword... its a mixture of another blade on an Omani long hilt... probably a Red Sea variant ...and quite likely to have been so fitted for commercial reasons...not least the tourism market.( Muscat has been doing that since 1970) I can prove, because I know the people who have done the conversions, that hundreds or probably thousands of these mixes have been sold via Muscat main souk to Tourists from all over the world.

Anyone so inclined could technically fit any blade from anywhere onto Omani long hilts but that wouldn't make them an Omani dancing sword ... insofar as swords are concerned the breed is not interchangeable simply by adding a long Omani Hilt.

To be clear; if the blade is non flexible and fitted to an Omani long hilt the indicators are it is not a dancing blade and that no such interim sword exists except by this accident of cross breeding caused by commercial exploitation in the market...

The whole point about flexibility is in the reason for its very existence and invention as a pageantry only sword.

Whilst my letter is about 50 years too late I am afraid that it is also not my fault :) ~ such is life ~ as I have already pointed out the provenance on such a blade could well exceed the importance of a mere dancing sword and could even be Schiavona or as in the case of the weapon at Kattara for comments #149 a much rarer Algerian weapon the stamp of which is shown to be Algerian at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

There is always the strong possibility that these stiffer blades are related to Mamluk style.

You in fact have a sword with the similar dimensions of such a possibility and could it not masquerade as an Omani Dancing Sword if it was on a long Omani Hilt ? ... see #81 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

In respect of your respected dealers comment I really am at a loss on how to respond since it would never be my aim to go against anything a respected dealer might think...oh wait a mo... I am a respected dealer... so if I may respond with some experience; The truth of this matter is;

The Omani Dancing Sword... The Straight Omani Sayf ... Dancing and pageants only. Specially invented as the current Dynastys sword of Salutation and Pageantry since 1744. Not for fighting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams BANTARU ~ There is one only in the "Richardson and Dorr" reference book on Omani artifacts. The spear fell into demise because of the advent of gunpowder..it also failed to make the grade because the much easier to carry sword and khanjar did. It was a matter of simple practicality and there was no contest since rifles simply superceded spears.

If I get the chance I will open a thread on Omani Spears later...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

An interesting point - I have never actually seen a spear from the Arabian Peninsula region, although I have seen a picture of one in old postcard...

Salaams Colin~ It is a very interesting field and there are a few in the museums. I will open the thread now with my only exhibit from the book above. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Wajah,

Thank You for the thread. However, before the advent of gunfire, the spear would certainly have been more useful than the sword or khanjar, for long-range attacks or during pursuit of fleeing enemies or for killing infantry from horse/camel back.

Salaams Bantaru... Absolutely agreed... which is why it was first to fall into disuse as soon as the rifle.. or long gun (Roumi or abu futtila appeared)

The new thread; THE OMANI SPEAR is open :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

MY KNOWLEGE IN THIS FIELD IS ONLY AS DEEP AS WHAT I HAVE READ IN THIS THREAD, SO PARDON ANY CONJECTURE OR SILLY COMMENTS I MAY MAKE. :D
IT APPEARS TO ME THE INTRODUCTION OF THE FELXABLE DANCE SWORD INTO PARADE USE CAME QUICKELY. NO DOUBT IN EARLIER TIMES WARRIORS CARRIED THEIR WAR SWORDS IN SUCH PROCESSIONS. TO GET A OLD WARRIOR TO LEAVE HIS CHERISHED WAR SWORD BEHIND WOULD NOT BE EASY OR POPULAR. TO APPEAR IN A PROCESSION BEFORE YOUR RULER WITHOUT YOUR SWORD OR NOT TO GO AT ALL WOULD NO DOUBT BRING DISHONOR OR WORSE.
THIS LEADS ME TO SUSPECT A ROYAL EDICT WAS THE CAUSE FOR THE RAPID CHANGE. WHERE WOULD A WISE RULER GET SUCH AN IDEA? HE KNEW HIS PEOPLE WOULD NOT LIKE TO APPEAR BEFORE HIM IN TRADITIONAL PROCESSIONS WITH NO SWORD BUT FOR SOME REASON WANTED TO CHANGE THE TRADITION WITHOUT TOO MUCH TROUBLE. POSSIBLE REASONS FOR THE CHANGE 1. TO STOP FATAL FIGHTS AMONG WARRIORS 2 . SECURITY FROM ASSINATION.
PERHAPS FLEXABLE SWORDS WERE USED IN THEATRE SUCH A WOBBLY FLEXABLE SWORD WOULD BE VERY GOOD IN COMEDY. PERHAPS PERFORMERS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE REAL WEAPONS WHEN PERFORMING BEFORE RULERS. THE RULER MAY HAVE SEEN THIS AND SAW A WAY TO PASS HIS EDICT REQUIRING EVERY PARTICIPANT TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD HE MAY EVEN HAVE HAD SOME MADE TO HIS ORDER TO GIVE AS PRESENTS TO HIGH RANKING MEN OR PERHAPS TO ENTIRE UNITS SO AS TO NOT LOSE THEIR SUPPORT OR FAVOR. THIS WOULD ASSURE EVERY ONE WOULD WANT SUCH A SWORD FOR THE PROCESSIONS AND NO DOUBT LEAD TO A COMPETICIAN OF SHOWMANSHIP SUCH AS BUZZING, THROWING AND FIGHTING WITH THE OBJECT OF ONLY CUTTING YOUR OPONENTS THUMB.
CONJECTURE MY SPECIALITY :D BUT PERHAPS IT MAY GIVE A DIRECTION TO SEARCH IN AS ROYAL RECORDS ARE LIKELY TO BE VAST IN NUMBERS. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST. :)

Salaams VANDOO That is exactly what happenend when the new (current)Dynasty developed the idea in about 1744 and according to the Museum sources, thus, it became the celebrated design for the dancing sword and for pageants and march past...never for fighting... though the tribes dont exactly march.. they sort of saunter and dance past en masse before the ruler with great pomp throwing their swords in the air and shimmering their blades with clever wrist flicking actions (something that stiff sword blades cannot do...) Throwing stiff swords in the air would be counter produtive to the population count!! The mimic sword fight contest would also be a bit dodgey with a stiff blade as the idea is to score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb on his shield hand ... not sawing off his hand/ arm / fingers..into the bargain ! The Omani Sayf.. The Omani straight dancing and pageants only sword entered the Omani Funoon .. the great traditional enactment reflecting the history of Oman and the sword was honoured by being sharpened on both edges like its predecessor The Omani Battle Sword.. and further enhanced by the provision of the Terrs Battle Shield. (Buckler).

Thank you for your excellent post. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Tourist Swords.
 

Salaams all Note to Forum; How the spurious non flexible blade has appeared on Omani Long Hilts.

Some people have examples of fake Omani dancing swords which are non flexible... other than a slight few degrees of bend. These are fakes made in Muttrah Souk from 1970. They are old Ethiopian blades imported from Sanaa and rehilted in Muscat for the tourist market. For those who think that another Omani Sword exists ie a straight non flexible blade on a conical Omani longhilt the answer is no . No such weapon exists. It is a concoction of the souk workshops.

See Post #2 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17556

This describes the now known route of such blades; many originally 19th C German/European, sold to Ethiopia thence to Yemen(Sanaa) and Saudia and on to Salalah and Mutrah Souks which have appeared spuriously on Omani long hilts and sold to visitors/tourists as Omani swords. It is difficult to know where to slot this mixed up weapon since it is not of the family Omani Battle Sword nor is it an Omani Dancing Sword (The Straight Sayf).

It is however placed here for reference and carries the warning that an Omani long hilted straight sword with a blade that is not flexible must immediately be looked at as a potential fake and likely to be mismatched from a Red Sea variant. They are classified as Tourist Swords.

Workshop in Muttrah have been identified as having created probably thousands of such mix ups since 1970. Many workshops are defunct but some remain. They often extend the tang (pictures available) and can add original scabbards and furniture. None of these swords appear to be absorbed into the Omani local market because;

"the dancing sword must be a certain style and able to bend often almost double since that is the criteria for the 1744 flexible dancing style continuing to be made locally today in Ras al Khaimah and Salalah and pre 1970 by wandering gypsy groups all over Oman".

I have included this post here and on Omani Battle Swords... so that library is correctly served.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I have a straight-bladed Omani sword. The blade is obviously locally-made and is marked with the "eylashes". It is flexible, but the tip can go off axis by no more than 2-3 inches. The blade is solid and battle - worthy.


My Argument against Ibrahim's theory is somewhat different: these swords were made at a time when swordfights were epidemic in the area. Thus, most if not all men owned battle swords.
Why on earth would they keep their fighting swords at home and acquire flimsy dancing implements to, - allegedly, - honor their ancestors. Too much money to burn?:-) Honoring ancestors with specially-made battle-worthless fakes? Makes no sense to me, unless there is something special in the Omani culture, and I have too much respect for them to suspect it.

Sword dances were widely popular in other cultures ( Caucasus, Ukraine, Cossack comes to mind right away), but those used real fighting blades. Otherwise, they would look like sissies. Was Oman a special case? I have great doubts about it: the laws of militant display are pretty standard all over the world.
No doubt that by now, when real swords are not practicable, lost, broken or sold to tourists for mucho dinero, the dancing ceremonies might employ flimsy substitutes ( same as modern Caucasian dancing troupes) . But 100-200 years ago? Sorry, but the theory looks totally illogical.

Salaams Ariel ~ How correct you are in pointing to the special Omani culture. In 1744 the new ruler called for an identifying sword of dance specifically for the Bussaidi dynasty. Thus was invented/born the Omani Saif or Dancing Sword. This has the flexible blade so that it can shimmer and buzz in the air when it is danced with and at weddings and social gatherings and for the march past by tribal infantry... and people. Its hilt was taken from the Omani Kattara. It has a mimic fighting performance also part of the culture ~ and in fact an entire ensemble of such dances with and without the Saif are in what the Omani People call The Traditions or "Funoon."

Your querry illustrates the difficulty that sword people have all over the world... in understanding the point. It's not a weapon ... It's a dancing sword ...to celebrate, dance, perform, pageants and traditions. It is the Bussaidi Dynasty Sword. It has never been used for fighting.

What has happenend since 1970 is that Yemeni merchants have bought and sold Ethiopian and other Red Sea blades and where these blades have had Rhino hilts they have been stripped off and put on Jambia... The blades then applied to the Omani market mainly Muttrah Souk Muscat. Enterprising Omani Souk Store owners have mismatched these blades with Omani Longhilts and occasionally scabbards and offered them for sale to tourists...They look real. They aren't.


Flexibility. The blade when flicked by the wrist can be seen to buzz and bends in the region of 5 to 6 inches both sides of the vertical ...see #5... by this action alone. When you press the blade horizontal against a wall it will bend almost 90 degrees easily. When you seize the tip and bend it back it can bend almost double and on release springs back straight.

Rule. An Omani long hilted straight dancing sword with a blade that is not flexible must immediately be looked at as a potential fake and likely to be mismatched from a Red Sea variant. They are classified as Tourist Swords.


The identification of an Omani dancing sword does not depend on whether a blade is considered capable of chopping a horses leg off or slicing through watermellons or chunks of wood...It is a sharp 2 edged item with a spatulate tip on a long Omani hilt. The blade, variously fullered, MUST BE FLEXIBLE.

There are 4 categories of Omani Sword;

1. The Old Omani Battle Sword. (Saif Yamaani)
2. The Omani Dancing Sword. (The straight flexible Omani Sayf)
3. The Omani Shamshiir.
4. The Omani Kattara.

As a note Ariel.. I have never seen an Omani Dancing Sword with eye lash markings... not yet anyway. Lots from the Red Sea region but not Oman.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

The heavy straight bladed Oman long handled sword of Kattara type hilt from aniquity exist, various examples have been viewed and owned by many.

There is no concrete evidence to say that swords with these heavy blades were not used in dance, they probably were used in dance but the point remains these swords are present in the world.

Please make the trip to Australia or England and view first hand antique Oman straight swords with fighting type blades, original items, not tourist swords but swords of antiquity. Find your best fake from the best fake makers and bring it with you to compare these inaccuracies.

Gavin

No. What are owned are traded in blades converted as I have said many times but to apparently no avail. ...read #53 above.

At this point I would suggest you contact the Omani National Museum since it is from there that confirmation must be accepted as I have done... and from the Richardson and Dorr cultural herritage work on same. Not to mention a long and interesting study of more than 3 decades in the subject. No such weapon exists except as described by me; The Omani souk produced weapon cross matched Re Sea Blade and Omani hilt scabbard etc are not classified as Omani Swords because there is no classification for fakes or Tourist Swords.

At this point therefor I decline your offer of me travelling to Australia or England to look at Red Sea examples of fake Omani Swords since I am quite aware of their provenance. You are of course invited to travel yourself and I will show you the Muscat workshop where such switched are still being done, if that is, you are still not convinced by the wealth of information at Museum level here or by the detailed work added by me on Kattara for Comments and on the specific details at The Omani Battle Sword and The Omani Dancing Sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you for your offer.

At this point, I must ask, why would a souk worker take a perfectly good complete with scabbrd antique flexible dance sword from antiquity, with wonderful culturally important fittings, design and artistry and history and being culturally important itself in its complete form, then remove the blade, then somehow fit a thicker fighting type blade in to a scabbard meant for its thinner brother, join the hilt in some manner that does not in any way disturb one ounce of age and patina and sell it as a [????] to tourists....seems rather odd that Omani Souk owners are destroying cultural heritage in an exercise of wasted time and resources when it would be just as easy to sell the original sword...Then what happens to the flexible blade? Does it then get dressed in modern leather, steel and silver of which I only see a couple of in the photos compared to the dozens and dozens of what I'd call beaters in the rest of the photos....

Gavin

Flexible Dancer. The Straight Omani Sayf..1744 The Bussaidi Dynasty Sword
 

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

In answer to your souk worker question ~I have no idea.. but I think you are arriving at the finished product in the wrong way. Here is how it worked;

1. Blade arrives from Yeman (Sanaa) to souk Muscat circa 1970 or after (not before as there weren't any tourists to speak of before that)
2. Souk shop transfers blade to workshops.
Blade is fitted up, tang extended, and long hilt fitted. .
3. Scabbard is tooled up to suit... including as you point out quite excellent furniture hand tooled leather and silver where required. Page 454 of Richardson and Dorr has metalwork such as yours you showed me on e mail..

What you now have is a non flexible Red Sea Blade on an Omani Long Handle heavily camouflaged and looking every inch an Omani Sword which it is not. Sold to a Tourist... and thus can turn up worldwide in this very confusing guise.

I have to say that you are not the first specialist in swords to have been misled by the Swords of Oman. Many 19TH C visitors made similar mistakes which because of the written word have become concreted in as fact when they aren't true at all.. viz;

1878 Mr Geary, Times of India...Muscat ..Quote" A favourite weapon is a straight broad two handed sword; the sweep of which would take off a mans thigh or even cut him in two at the waist. The swordsmen carried over their shoulders small round shields of Rhinosceros hide 8 or 9 inches in diameter. The Arabs of these parts are very formidable swordsmen." Unquote.

James Wellstead visit to tribesmen Jalaan Bani Bu Ali 1835 Quote" The whole of the tribe... of about 250 men assembled for the purpose of exhibiting their dance. They had formed a circle within 5 or 6 of their number now entered. After walking leisurely around for some time, each challenged one of the spectators by striking him gently with the flat of his sword. His adversary immediately leapt forth and feigned combat ensued. They have but two cuts, one directly downwards at the head, and the other horizontally across the legs. They parry each other neither with sword nor shields but avoid the blows by leaping and bounding backwards. The blade of their sword is 3 feet in length, straqight thin double edged and as sharp as a razor''. Unquote.

What Wellstead didnt mention because he probably didn't know... is that there is but one point in the scoring system awarded if the thumb of the shield hand is touched by the flat tip of the oponents sword ... game over.

He also failed to notice that the weapon was not in fact a weapon but a dancing and pageant sword only and since the Mimic Fight is in fact an important part of the pageant The...Hooplah!!...Hey Presto!!...A pageantry Sword. (Pageant = Traditions = The Funoon.)

There are plenty other examples of mistaken identity and it is interesting to see it perpetrated today and in this case by a reasonably recent sword format fetched in by trade and rehilted by enterprising workshops.

Like always ... I am quite prepared to leave the door open for logical arguement and for anyone to dive in and start researching the issue. I continue to search always on the lookout for twists and turns in the story and always ready to re-assess my findings. To date I have seen no evidence to illustrate another avenue on these sword rebuilds but as always I am ready to listen and will follow up on leads which are sensible and constructive. Tilting at Windmills, however, ...I've done that and do not intend to repeat the experience ! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.








Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?


If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...

Tang extensions... On Omani longhilts its different... :shrug: The pommel is part of the tang... On non pommel swords the tang has to be extended and a pommel welded on... then the sword can be hilted like a long Omani hilt... not before.

An example of an extended tang is on file here where you can see an Ethiopian blade fitted with an extended tang and pommel and awaiting its Omani hilt to be fitted in Muscat at Muttrah where they've been doing this for decades ! This blade has come up the same route as yours.. Germany- Ethiopia - Yemen/ Sanaa) -Muscat -Tourist -Worldwide -

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments see post 241.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin

Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim,

The paragraph is indicative that if you were here with me examining this sword, in a controlled enviroment you would be convinced to understand it better than your dismissal of it for what it is that you claim from afar.

Equally, if it was put through stringent scientific examination at both superfical level and through scientific disassembly of the sword, it too would convince you of the sword as being of antiquity.

Apart from, and keeping this comment specific to this sword we discuss, hot the type, I have not had you present a comparable example to support your claims, only crude all steel examples and hearsay. Equally for me here, now only having this one example in my hands, I will engage the collection of others as they come to hand to better support the type I suggest.

Gavin

Loggerheads it is Ibrahiim...but there is evidence not being embraced...the one I hold and others I have handled...of the poor crude unrefined tourist types you mention, I have never gone out of my way to obtain one.

Gavin

One bridge at a time friend, one bridge at a time.

Gavin

Salaams all~ Whilst we are waiting for that I should remind Forum of what I mean by Mimic Fighting and March Past using the The Straight Dancing Sword; The Flexible sword invented for the Bussaidi Dynasty in 1744 and still in power thus the sword is still used in a declaration of support in all the related pageants. The March Past by tribal infantry and the Mimic Fight are shown below;see also #38.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.

Hi Stu,

As far as the discussion goes, we are at loggerheads as noted. Points have been addressed but with disbelief which is part and parcel of working through things.
If time permits I will seek out provenanced examples and advise further, maybe someone with more spare time can also do so.

Other than that, without opening another can of worms you may have to request a specific point not yet answered, I may have missed one.

I would also like to add, the black and white image above;
The gent crouching embraces a sword of fighting form with a tip not seen on dance swords...I too note the buckler has some nasty cuts out of it...surely not from a dance sword dance which further leads me to suspect and suspect only that he must own two or more swords by all accounts noted by Ibrahiim, especially if each sword has its specific use, a straight one for dance a curved one for fighting and if lucky a straight one for fighting, which begs another question to be asked, did by this measure, every man able to fight, carry two or more swords when away from his home in the century past, a dance sword, a battle sword and a curved sword...seems out of place, I would suggest, on a pilgrimage, only one sword would be carried, likely a long handled fighting type being of preference and that it was used for both dance and protection/fighting(speculation but plausible).
I might too add that these fighting swords of a straight type are more than meets the eye at first glace, much like Iain's swords when viewed closely, they are straight but one way in the hand has straight sword weight and feel, turn the swords 180deg in the hands and they have a sabre like weight distribution. This is an aspect seen in many straight double edged swords throughout time.

Gavin

Salaams khanjar 1... As you well know... I have addressed the issue many times, however, as noted there is a log jam.

Of the many thousands of rehilted non Omani blades on Omani long hilts sold via Muscat I am certain there are quite a few foreign people holding made up swords of the style I have outlined in their collections. The rule is simple;

Straight, not flexible on a long Omani Hilt= Not an Omani Dancing Sword= Fake.

SwordsAntiqueWeapons ..Your comment about the tip of the sword is because the sword is moving, twisting, flexing and displayed as more pointed than usual but this is only an optical illusion ...see also the optical effect on the parade past below. It is a standard Omani, straight, flat, spatulate, flexible, round tipped, dancing sword.

Your remaining paragraph covers purely so far as I can see conjecture on the whyfors of cuts in the Terrs shield and sumations on pilgrimage carriage of sword/swords... none of which has a bearing on this case and which are simply unproven guesses. Most terrs have cuts in them caused by the mimic fight morelikely..and since after all the blades are very sharp. In the case of a Terrs having actually been used in combat with the Omani Battle Sword I can imagine cuts in the shield in that function. You will recall the reason why the Terrs was awarded/ordered to be included in the pageants with the 1744 dancer?

Unless you are about to re write Omani Sword History please be advised that there is no evidence of stiff fighting blades on Omani Dancing swords... the vast number of rehilted tourist swords , has however, created its own weather pattern. The source has been identified as has the rehilting region (Muttrah) and the date from about and after 1970 til now viz;

Germany/Europe>Ethiopia>Yemen/Saudia>Sanaa>Salalah/Muscat>Muttrah Souk>World.

The dancing sword has been carried by tribal infantry in Oman since 1744 but only for the dedication ... the parade ... and march past in front of the Bussaidi Ruler; The straight dancing sword could well be described as the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword and I can show a sketch of it carried by tribal infantry in the 19th C... That doesn't make it a fighting weapon. I have to say however that it certainly adds fog to the situation..!! It was, however, a dancing sword and is still used today only for that and the pageants.

I think the biggest mistake is in classing the sword as a fighting weapon because it feels, looks and appears to be so. This has fooled visitors and collectors alike for a very long time. The fact that it can apparently chop an arm off, cut a man in half, or that the warriors weilding it look war-like, vicious , deadly ...etc etc is purely coincidental..they probably are but not with that sword.

Now firstly to be absolutely clear and specific and we are not talking about any other combination such as battle swords... The long Omani flexible dancing Sword on the long hilt, called The Sayf or Saif is purely for pageants and dancing and I think that is agreed...

Secondly what seems to be questionable is a stiff bladed fighting version on the same long hilt. This is not the case. Any stiff variants are relatively recently cross hilted as detailed by me as not genuine.

( Owners of the fake version with the stiff blade may pontificate untill they are blue in the face but that will never change the scenario..If it doesn't flex ... if its stiff ... its not an Omani dancing sword... and there is no other category to slot it into since by definition its a 1970 (from and to-date) fake. A Tourist sword.

I have seen these stiff bladed swords and some are in excellent disguise and clearly went for a considerable sum .. They are accompanied by well made Omani Scabbards and occasionally superb furniture..I have never seen one in the ownership of a local... they all seem to be externally owned... why? Perhaps because they all traversed the souk system which created them and were outed to foreign ownership from about 1970 (thus they are tourist swords) and since Omani men don't use them... because... the blades don't flex.

Anyone conducting research into these stiff blades should keep that in mind. :shrug:


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I don't really feel like diving into all this again, but I'd be curious Ibrahiim, if you've come across a provenanced 19th century, or earlier, dance version (i.e. super flexi blade). By provenance I mean a sword that has not been rehilted or tampered with and has a firm, documented collection date. in the 1800s or earlier.

I think it would be interesting to see.

Salaams Iain, The only likely source of that is the National Museum which I shall try to access shortly. The other document which probably exists in some far flung corner of the Museum admin section would be the signed order for the actual Dancing Sword being brought into play in 1744...

That being the perfect solution I can wager straight away that perhaps neither exist !

Fine dancing swords are in private hands since they are part of an Omani Families Heirloom...and like the Museum quest it is on my list.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim, I would be very surprised if some examples did not end up in European collections during the 19th century. That is perhaps a more likely avenue to have properly dated items with provenance.

Salaams Iain~ Im not about to argue that point, however, it seems to me that few Europeans if any have swords from 19th C. Oman which was in decline and largely side stepped because of the Suez canal etc.
I am not particularly well positioned either to view possible European collections but I am astride the situation here in Oman. It is, therefor, here that I shall research.

It should be noted that those in favour of an old dancing sword used for fighting may be trying to push the envelope back from the 1970 rehilted lineage to suggest a thicker stiff bladed sword of earlier provenance... when in fact no such weapon exists... save for the fake, rehilted, Red Sea variants already outlined.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hopefully you'll turn something up, however, one of the great benefits of Colonial era bring backs is that the when the item was removed from the source culture it remained unchanged. Given that Britain had involvement in the region from the 1820s it would not be surprising to turn up a few.

Perhaps you'll be able to find that locally, but I'll be interested about any dated provenance.


Well seeing documented early 20th century and 19th century examples can only help with particular question don't you think? ;)

I have had one dance sword of the proper dance type of the vintage noted but without provenance or one never enquired about at the time.
The swords as a type was of EU form shaved within an inch of its life through the top 6-8 inches.

Gavin

Hi Gav,

And therein lies the problem I think, there's a few folks around here who've had or have swords they'd attribute to the 19th century and on the other side we've got someone who's aware of similar items still being made today.

A few examples with provenance won't answer all the questions about each individual sword that comes up for discussion, but would at least provide a baseline for what's possible versus the current ideas being put forth in this thread about tourist weapons and fakes.

Since there's a lack of pictorial and archaeological evidence either way for this, really the only thing will be items with collection dates or period photos that clearly show blades.

Ibrahiim, have you ever been to the Bait Al Zubair museum? They apparently have a sword on display with a 17th century Portuguese blade. Not sure of the mounts but it could be interesting.

I would like to say that it has been most intesting to see this debate/discussion unfold, and while there aeem to have been a degree of 'loggerheads' etc. everyone seems to have maintained a good level of courtesy in interaction. Most interesting is the nature of the weapons which are the focus here.
If I may add some thoughts and personal experience which though limited, might add a little perspective. I would clarify, as this is a 'discussion' in my view I do not take 'sides' :)

When I first acquired one of this long cylinder hilt Omani swords, it seems it was around 1994-5 , around the time Robert Elgood published "Arms and Armour of Arabia". At this time, these were still considered remarkably rare, and thier appearance was even rarer in catalogs or auctions. I recall that the admittedly 'wreck' of a 'kattara' I acquired was considered a bit of conquest in the limited collecting circles in which I was involved.

With Elgoods book, we knew of these forms, and the swords referred to in these threads as 'battle swords' from factions in Nizwa were must sought as rare early to even 'ancient' prototypes for the kattara. They were almost invariably misidentified accordingly, as medieval etc.

As has been often the case, in a short time more of the cylinder hilts began to occur in markets, and great excitement grew when several of the 'old' type kattara appeared.
As has been noted, Oman has not been a particularly open place to the west until relatively recent years. Presumably that degree of opening up allowed for more examples to enter collectibles venues.

It would seem to me that kattara, while certainly known of, in the 19th century, were not especially avaliable in the typical colonial 'tourist' and souvenier centers of North Africa, Arabia and Red Sea areas. What seems to be known of them, as seen with the references by Auguste Demmin (1867) and subsequently copied by Burton (1884), these cylinder hilts appear to have been regarded as from Zanzibar. That is reflected in these references in drawings, and while Oman itself was effectively 'closed', the bustling entrepot of Zanzibar was not, but it was a Sultanate of Oman. Clearly the Zanzibar attribution resulted, and most notably, the limited data regarding these weapons has remained largely stagnant until Elgood in 1994.

The ceremonial function of these cylindrical hilt swords is well established, but it would seem that thier use in form as battle swords in Muscati circumstances was also a case in degree in the 19th century. It also seems that they were worn in more ostentatious dress as a status symbol and mark of prestige by the burgeoning ranks of merchants from Oman (Muscat as I understand), while interior Nizwa maintained thier traditional forms.

It does not seem particularly remarkable that various trade blades from German and other sources would have entered Omani armouries, and that their armourers would have copied markings etc just as in other colonial or native settings.
That the cottage industry of commercially producing these swords not only for ceremonial purposes, but for tourist ('collecting') venues also does not seem remarkable.

It is clear that the early days of these becoming available in limited degree opened doors for the usual dealer opportunities, which became exploited in many cases as is typically the case with arms antiquities. I think the open look into these kinds of circumstances that has been revealed in these pages is wonderfully helpful to collectors, however I am not sure that these weapons as types can be categorically classified without individual evalution of each one on its own merits.

End of solilioquy :)

Salaams Jim,
Thank you for your post which I feel well underlines the cleansing humility about doubt in the matter of The Dancing Sword.

I have to say that one part of the puzzle I cannot get to the root of, is the date of appearance of the Kattara; The Curved Omani Sword, though, incidentally more often seen with a European blade..Did this appear before or after the Straight Omani Dancing Sword ?.. whose known birthdate is 1744 at the outset of the Bussaidi Dynasty. Naturally, part of the question is "where did the long Omani hilt come from" ? Which sword/thus which hilt came first?

I have been in most of the Museums, though, Bait Zubair not yet but friends have seen the exhibits, however, the Portuguese oddity is one blade I would like to look at and to ask where did it appear from and when? Portuguese Swords tended to be Rapier style... or at least the few I have owned were... I would like to examine any broadsword of that period pre 1650 in Muscat museums...though I am aware of certain exhibits that have a shall we say "dubious recent history". It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be. :D

Meanwhile I continue to help build a strong reference library on this subject and I believe we are healthier for it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It would have to be done post 1970 then to fit in with the typology you've outlined and would have to be classed as a "tourist item" as it would not be a flexible dancing sword.

Hopefully you can visit the museum in the near future and clear this up, I'm quite a few folks would be curious to see this particular sword.

Salaams Iain... Of the half dozen or so scenarios that is one of them...I can only speculate on the potential range of variations since if the sword was left behind/captured when the Portuguese left we are talking about 1650. That puts the long hilt and the dancing sword out of sight. If the blade was slapped onto an Omani Longhilt later it raises many questions and if it was mounted post 1970 then it's a fake by definition. Surprisingly the Richardson and Dorr team included a few swords from that collection in their book but they are Shamshiirs..one with a 18th C. German blade ... I shall visit there soon but I know they are camera allergenic !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.