Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   3 worn out keris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25562)

apolaki 19th January 2020 04:32 AM

3 worn out keris
 
3 Attachment(s)
Hi

Looking for some opinions on these 3 keris. Are they old timers who've seen better days? Also, curious to learn some basic rust cleaning & general cleaning techniques if anyone would care to share or link to already shared tutorials.

Thanks!

jagabuwana 26th January 2020 05:06 AM

Hi Apolaki, please see the 2nd post in this thread by Alan - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23934

Something I've learned is that a simple clean using dish detergent or cream cleaner and a hard toothbrush, under running water, can spruce the appearance of a blade up real nicely.

After a full clean and dry, you can drench the dry blade with WD40, let it dry, then repeat the process daily for a few days.

Once finished, you can use some fragrant keris oil to lightly coat the blade with using a brush. I use liquid paraffin and sandalwood (cendana).

A. G. Maisey 26th January 2020 05:30 AM

There is a heap of stuff in this Forum on cleaning and restoration, I don't know where it is, but maybe David can point you in the right direction, or tell you how to find it.

Apart from that, as Jaga has commented, just a decent cleanup with detergent and a toothbrush can work wonders on a blade if it is not too dirty. I think I'd be trying this on the top keris with the Bugis-style hilt. This actually looks like a pretty decent blade.

The middle blade that is thick with red rust needs a vinegar soak, when you find the cleaning stuff I've mentioned it will explain how to do this. This blade is what we call a "robahan" = a changeling. It has been altered to create the pudak setegal spurs on its side.

The bottom blade is an old very ordinary Javanese blade, this might respond OK to just a dishwash cleanup too.

The top blade does not belong with that Bugis pistol grip type hilt, but it would go pretty nicely with heavily carved hilt that is under the very rusty blade.

The bottom blade has a correct hilt already fitted.

The top scabbard can probably be glued together, but really, none of these blades belong in it.

The other wrongko parts look too far gone to do anything with. Put them into the spare parts box until something comes along that you can use them with.

EDIT

I just noticed the link that Jaga put into his post. The recommendations in that will certainly help, but apart from that there's a lot of other stuff too.

Mickey the Finn 27th January 2020 03:25 AM

Re: Cleaning and restoration info.
 
Provided one thinks of it as a mindless automaton like a "toyol/tuyul", with essentially identical limitations to it's performance, the Search function in the Menu Bar above can be useful. Type in a pertinent word or two, and, provided the word(s) searched for have actually been written in a post (as spelled in the Search field), the posts will be brought up in a list. Searching for "rust removal" would fail to bring up posts with "remove corrosion", or "cleaning keris", unless these words also happened to appear in the same post. Like a toyol, the Search will return with results (if present) for "USD1" while ignoring any Krugerrands or Chilean Pesos which may also be present.

apolaki 28th January 2020 03:23 AM

Hello, thank you so much for this wealth of information!

I am interested to know are there specific dish detergents recommended to use or avoid such as citric scent because of acidic properties?

With regards to painting a slurry of bicarbonate of soda to remove the vinegar residue, what is a slurry? Sorry I am not familiar with that term in the US!

A. G. Maisey 28th January 2020 04:10 AM

A slurry is a watery paste. Some people consider it to be unnecessary caution, I do not.

I am very specific with my selection of dishwash liquid:- I specifically use the one that is on the kitchen sink.

David 28th January 2020 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I am very specific with my selection of dishwash liquid:- I specifically use the one that is on the kitchen sink.


:D :D :D

apolaki 5th February 2020 10:20 PM

Hello!

I bought regular vinegar jug at store. It says "diluted with water to 5% acidity"

How many cups should I add and how much vinegar should I pour afterwards for this bath for the rusted keris?

I am assuming I shouldn't just submerge the keris in straight vinegar even though it says already "diluted with water to 5% acidity."

Thanks again!

David 6th February 2020 12:43 AM

Actually i believe that vinegar diluted to 5% acidity is fine to use without further dilution.
Perhaps someone else knows different. I have always used pineapple juice on keris. I have used vinegar on Moro Kris however and have never found straight vinegar right out of the bottle to be too strong when etching the blades. :shrug:

Rick 6th February 2020 01:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
My Wife has been using a washing soda solution that has electrical current run through it from a trickle charger. It works very well and fairly quickly.
She has been de-rusting cast iron pans.
I know that the technique has been discussed in detail in the forums.

Apolaki, your blade in bugis dress seems very similar in technique to this example that I got some years ago.

Paul B. 6th February 2020 11:21 AM

Missing ganja?
Pamor similar to Sisik sewu?

Rick 6th February 2020 03:19 PM

Mine?
Gonjo iras; I don't know this pamor.
Apolaki's keris looks to be an iras also

Paul B. 6th February 2020 06:31 PM

Yours Rick.
The gandik elevation reaches as far as the edge of the 'ganja', that's why I suppose it is missing but of course I could be wrong.
Or is the pejetan hole blocked as is the case with gonjo iras blades? Can't see clearly.

Rick 6th February 2020 06:49 PM

We have been down this road before. :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...&highlight=iras

David 6th February 2020 09:02 PM

I did the staining job on this keris some time back (Rick almost didn't get it back :D )and my personal opinion, having had it in hand, is that it is gonjo iras.

apolaki 7th February 2020 09:53 PM

Hi all!

The vinegar solution is doing wonders to the keris! Thank you so much. The rust is almost completely gone. :)

I wanted to know after I have finished its last bath and applied baking soda slurry to remove the remnants of vinegar, what is the next step? Essentially, I wanted to know:

1) Is the process of etching different, what are some solvents readily available to common consumer?

2) If I choose not to etch it, should I just rub it well with oil, and if so what type of oil is recommended WD40?

This process of cleaning has been fun so far. :)

Thanks again!

Rick 7th February 2020 11:12 PM

Apolaki, I'd suggest that if you haven't put the bugis dressed blade in your de-rusting solution already that you don't.
I think that blade doesn't require such a radical treatment; doing so might remove all the staining that is on there now, and that blade is in fairly decent condition compared to the other two.

jagabuwana 8th February 2020 11:46 AM

Staining the blade is a more difficult proposition. In Jawa they would use warangan, basically arsenic. Some people on this forum have been lucky to get access to the lab grade stuff. For the rest of us, realgar is a mineral you can get online which has arsenic content, but the results seem inconsistent.

I have used sulfur and rice water once and it looked like itcould have been promising had I just let it go on for longer.

A keyword search will serve you well, as these have been discussed at length in many threads.

apolaki 9th February 2020 02:25 PM

Thanks for the advice. I won't tinker with the keris in Madura dress until I gain more experience.

I did notice while doing repeated cleaning and bathing of the rusted keris that there is some yellow discoloration appearing in areas of the blade. Is this something to be concerned about? I vaguely recall something being mentioned about that in past forum posts but I dont remember what was stated.

apolaki 9th February 2020 04:05 PM

Hi Jagabuwana,

I was curious to know the reason for applying fragrant oil after applying WD40? Is it just for aromatic reasons?

I chose to buy Pure Mineral Oil. Would it be good idea to apply the mineral oil after WD40 application is completed?

I do also have sandalwood & patchouli highly fragranced warming oil that has alot of various chemical incredients on the label.. I am hesitant to use it because its not "pure" and I dont know what chemicals can cause a reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagabuwana
Hi Apolaki, please see the 2nd post in this thread by Alan - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23934

Something I've learned is that a simple clean using dish detergent or cream cleaner and a hard toothbrush, under running water, can spruce the appearance of a blade up real nicely.

After a full clean and dry, you can drench the dry blade with WD40, let it dry, then repeat the process daily for a few days.

Once finished, you can use some fragrant keris oil to lightly coat the blade with using a brush. I use liquid paraffin and sandalwood (cendana).

jagabuwana 9th February 2020 11:48 PM

Yes, apply the mineral oil after you have done the WD40 treatments, and once it has completely dried.

Historically, the keris is an object that is dressed and anointed because it was more than just a merely decorative or utilitarian object. Yes the oil does protect it from corrosion but the primary reason for doing so might have been to further beautify and make it elegant to the senses. In the milieu of where the keris originated, it was and is appropriate and encouraged to do so. It is becoming of the blade.

Whether you choose to pay attention to this and go down this road is up to you. Mineral oil on its own (after a WD40 treatments have dried) will do a decent job to protect the blade and you can choose to leave it at that. But I do feel that this blade is quite nice and it would be a shame if it was not wangi (fragrant/perfumed).

I personally would not use any oils that have been mixed with other stuff.

I like to use 50% mineral oil, with 50% sandalwood essential oil. I got my stuff off eBay and it was relatively inexpensive compared to the stuff you can buy off the shelves at hippy shops. To my knowledge, sandalwood is the only scent that is most commonly used in keris oils while also being widely available outside of Indonesia/Java.

Patchouli isn't a scent that I'm familiar with in the context of keris.

jagabuwana 9th February 2020 11:56 PM

As for the discolouration, this is most probably surface rust/oxodation. Of all the blades I cleaned this happened most rapidly to my bugis keris.

If you can't get it off by getting it under running water with detergent and a brush, put it back in vinegar for a short while and brush it off or use a pick. Bicarb slurry again, completely dry it, then wd40 immediately.

A. G. Maisey 11th February 2020 08:41 PM

Drying can best be facilitated by following the clean, lint free cloth with a hairdryer.

apolaki 13th February 2020 02:38 AM

4 Attachment(s)
I dried it throughly with hair dryer, and I am at the WD40 stage for the heavily rusted keris. It looks like there is pamor; Once I dry various applications of WD40, I plan to apply a final layer of pure mineral oil as a last step.

Is this turning out okay? There are trace amounts of yellowing. When oiled I can no longer make out the pamor as the first photo.

I also could not remove the ganja, but I could see some rust remaining in a small interior crevasse.

A. G. Maisey 13th February 2020 04:04 AM

That's coming up OK, but you see all those little black dots, well, they need to be cleaned out.

I use two tools for this, a dentists pick, and a saddlers awl with a fine blade in it, I also use a machinists loupe, about 2.5X or 3X. You need to dig the rubbish out of those pits, if you do not, over time rust will usually spread from them.

Ordinary mineral oil after the WD40 is fine. Medicinal paraffin or Singer sewing machine oil is what I use, but I add a fragrant oil to that. The fragrance does nothing in the way of protection, but it is traditional.

When it has been oiled, it is best to store it in a plastic sleeve.

The gunk in the joint between blade & gonjo is nearly always full of rubbish in old keris, a full restoration would involve removal, cleaning and a tight refix, for the last 50 years most m'ranggis have used a two part epoxy cement on the joining surfaces, not to hold the blade and gonjo together, but to protect against further erosion. Since this is your first, I would suggest that you do not attempt the demount of the gonjo, just clean out what gunk you can with a pick and let the oil soak in.

apolaki 13th February 2020 08:41 AM

Thanks for the good news! I have been trying the same technique with a moro blade at the same time and it is not turning out so well......

In any case, where do you recommend places to get plastic sleeves? I understand you are based in Australia. Perhaps you may still know or might recommend some everyday object that happens to work perfect but isn't intended to be a sheath for keris?

Maybe other members who are familiar with the US can chime in as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
That's coming up OK, but you see all those little black dots, well, they need to be cleaned out.

I use two tools for this, a dentists pick, and a saddlers awl with a fine blade in it, I also use a machinists loupe, about 2.5X or 3X. You need to dig the rubbish out of those pits, if you do not, over time rust will usually spread from them.

Ordinary mineral oil after the WD40 is fine. Medicinal paraffin or Singer sewing machine oil is what I use, but I add a fragrant oil to that. The fragrance does nothing in the way of protection, but it is traditional.

When it has been oiled, it is best to store it in a plastic sleeve.

The gunk in the joint between blade & gonjo is nearly always full of rubbish in old keris, a full restoration would involve removal, cleaning and a tight refix, for the last 50 years most m'ranggis have used a two part epoxy cement on the joining surfaces, not to hold the blade and gonjo together, but to protect against further erosion. Since this is your first, I would suggest that you do not attempt the demount of the gonjo, just clean out what gunk you can with a pick and let the oil soak in.

A. G. Maisey 13th February 2020 09:37 AM

Well, I buy the sleeves in a 100 meter roll from a shop behind Pasar Gede in Solo, Jawa Tengah, but if you don't really feel like the trek, you could try plastic cling wrap.

apolaki 13th February 2020 08:19 PM

Would the plastic cause off-gasing of fumes and potentially adversely effect the metal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Well, I buy the sleeves in a 100 meter roll from a shop behind Pasar Gede in Solo, Jawa Tengah, but if you don't really feel like the trek, you could try plastic cling wrap.

A. G. Maisey 13th February 2020 09:13 PM

Apo, I'm sorry, but I do not understand the question, however, I do understand that the approach I have outlined to you is the one I have used for around 50 years and it has never resulted in any adverse effect on a blade.

jagabuwana 15th February 2020 08:16 AM

I was meaning to buy some tattoo gun cord sleeves off ebay as they seemed fit for the job. Didn't end up getting around to it but you may want to look into that. Here's an example .

I'm not affiliated with or have any interest in this store or product.


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