This is a fascinating topic and glad to see it back up!
Actually seeing the bit about the pennons purpose being for soaking up blood seems kind of like so many other 'explanations' for features on weapons in the eventual 'lore' that evolves.

Interesting that the source for this is said to come from RCMP history. I recall many years ago seeing one of their music parade events with laces drill...it was spectacular. These forces are in themselves most impressive and quite historically profound.
However it seems that they really never used the lance but for performances from c. 1870s and to notably impress American Indian tribes etc. They may have had some use in WWI, but while the unit was certainly there, unclear on how much use the lance had.

In my opinion, the 'blood' element may well have come from the long tradition of the British 16th Lancers, who fought Sikh forces at Aliwal in 1846. Apparently after the battle the pennons of the lances were so blood soaked and encrusted, that the regiment traditionally crimped their pennons 16 times, in remembrance of that terrible battle.

It seems that the Canadians adopted the crimping of the pennons as they took to use of the lance in 1870s and later Queen Victoria took exception to their use of that feature in the pennons. Perhaps there had been some earlier connection between the 16th and the 5th who later formed part of the Canadian brigade in WWI as they were amalgamated together in 1922.
Whatever the case, the blood soaked pennons of Aliwal may be the source of this notion.

In actuality, the pennon has been suggested as more regimentally symbolic and for parade type purposes than such matters. In WWI, the German lancers left their pennons off during battle.

Continuing:
On the practical and physiological aspects of the lance.

These weapons, while psychologically terrifying in an advance formation of cavalry, their impact was quickly ended once in the melee. These were useless in the ensuing combat, and even to drop them and draw swords would put the rider in immediate vulnerability.
Because of the horrific wounding potential of the lance, these horsemen were despised and vehemently attacked, never receiving quarter.

They were cumbersome even in normal maneuvers, and could be dangerous to other riders in formation. During the Civil War, an attempt was made to duplicate European lancer regiments, I believe it was a Pennsylvania regt.
The results were horrendous, and the troopers were their own worst enemy.
I believe the idea was abandoned and the troops back to regular cavalry.

The idea of lances ended up with blood hampering their grip is no more likely than from a sword or any edged weapon. Lances had their grips about half way down the shaft, suggesting that their use was not as much a full length penetration thrust, but more of a jabbing action. The idea was not to impale a victim on the lance, obviously rendering the rider weaponless or unhorsing him....but to inflict lacerating wounds at key locations.

At San Pascual, in California during the Mexican-American war, the dragoon forces attacked by Mexican lancers often had as many as 13 or more wounds. Actually they were unable to load their guns in the darkness and place the caps, while the Mexican lancers simply chose their targets . They used jabbing thrusts so as not to lose their weapons.

The notion of the pennon causing mortal sepsis by its entry into the wound is a valid observation, but penetration of that depth and with that pennon now an obstruction in retraction from the wound, something that probably led to some cavalry removing them prior to combat.

I think one of the most notable instances of lore about lances is the one about Polish lancer units attacking German tanks with these in WWII. This was pure propaganda, and while the unit was a lancer named unit, and they did have swords, they did not attack the tanks, especially not with lances.
They did use swords as German's exited disabled or stopped tanks though.
German Wehrmacht also had cavalry using sabres.

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.
Here is some artwork ~The black and white is Elandslaagt in the Boer War..and the other is Omdurman. The lance head and base are of the style made by Wilkinson.

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.

one of the last true cavalry charges, in early ww1, a group of british cavalry drew sabres & charged a group from a german uhlan, brits has swords, the germans had the steel lance. they were a new unit and apparently not well trained, they broke and ran, only being saved when the survivors managed to get behind a farmer's barbed wire fence that stopped the pursuing brits as the horses refused to jump it.

and the poles never charged tanks with their lances in ww2 as german propaganda suggested...they did successfully charge a complacent german encampment that hadn't posted proper sentries and did great damage to it, and retreated in good order when some armour turned up. their lances were back in HQ for parades, they used firearms (and sabres) and were used more as mounted infantry. there were just not enough of them, especially with no air cover, and the russians attacking from the other side to aid their german allies.

Wayne, your description of the myth about Polish lancers in WWII was much better described than mine!
The idea of the pennon serving as a deterrent for over penetration sounds plausible, but it is notable that the German uhlan units typically removed them from their lances.
Certainly there would seem to be a certain plausibility for unit recognition, however there were not that many lancer regiments so as to be confused in action. At Balaclava (1854), there was only one, in front as in battle order, the 17th Lancers.
Actually lancer units usually had more of a 'national' pennon color combination. The British used red and white (taken from the Napoleonic Polish lancers that inspired them); while others had different colors (Germany black & white). Lance pennons were not regimentally specific, while guidons were.

There were lances with the cross bars in the Spanish cavalry, 18th c.
The lance became the primary weapon used by horsemen in colonial New Spain in the frontiers of northern Mexico and the Spanish southwest. The reason for this was often described as because of the unreliability of the firearms and lack of powder. The Spaniards were adept in the use of the lance (with American Indians quickly adopting same).

The cross bar on boar spears and such hunting weapons was to prevent the animal from 'riding up' the shaft to its attacker in wounded fury, not to restrict penetration.
However over penetration is a notable problem with the lance as the lancer becomes instantly disarmed. This is why lances have the lanyard straps at center, as the lance is used at that stance in jabbing thrusts, rather than full tilt full penetration . At San Pascual in the Mexican American war, the Californio lancers destroyed an American dragoon column with lances, but the dragoons were essentially unarmed. Their paper cartridges had been dampened by rain, it was dark night, unfamiliar terrain, the mounts were spent, and they could not effectively place the caps in their guns in the dark.
Most received many shallow wounds, with many fatal, but gruesomely lingering deaths.

As has been noted, for these reasons, lancers were much despised, and never received quarter as in many cavalry cases others were.

Wilkinson made these lances..This is a copy of the inscription.

Very Nice Items!

just a tidbit: 'male bamboo' used for lances is a thicker stronger species than normal bamboo, comes from india/south east asia, and will not grow in the UK climate. (i know someone who has tried ;)). it's fairly rare in its native area as well. hence the occasional shortages and substitution of ash, the traditional european pole arm wood of choice.

I understand lancers were also unpopular because of the ease with which they could wander among the dead and fallen and by simply leaning on their lance from horseback kill those too injured ti fight back. I think this cold-blooded killing from a relatively safe distance was regarded as verging on the cowardly. Snipers suffer from a similar prejudice.
Regards
Richard

Going back to lances themselves ;) .

Good idea Fernando.....pretty unpleasant thinking about what these weapons were used for.

I show a website video of how they practiced in Victorian times...Please see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fcp_4rQPlU

Thank you Ibrahiim,
It really is interesting to see how 'tent pegging' was used to increase skills with these weapons. While it seems that all manner of study of martial arts, fencing and exercise with swords is readily acceptable in discussions on those and various other edged weapons...the lance was apparently so disdained that it is deemed a reprehensible topic.

Yet lancer regiments were typically regarded in elite status, and the British cavalry after Waterloo chose to fashion select cavalry units to lancers, in honor and admiration of the Polish lancers in those campaigns. The red and white pennons on British lances were chosen in commemoration of the Polish national colors, also on their lances.

I recently watched the wonderful 1930s classic movie "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" with Gary Cooper starring. It is situated in the Northwest Frontier about a British lancers unit, and shows the elite status of these units and the pride they took in their skills with the lance. There were some great scenes of this tent pegging exercise. It is notable that these units were actually still in service in India at the time this movie was made.

British cavalrymen also hunted with lances after wild pigs, and these were somewhat shorter with heavy lead bulbs at the base.

It is interesting to note these kinds of variations which reveal the actual use intended, and how to identify which units might have carried the lances discussed. Sometimes the history associated with weapons may not be entirely P.C. however it remains just what it is, history.

not PC, but i always like watching 'gunga din - 1939', especially the final battle scene at the temple. they do show in a a relatively non-gory way, the use of the lance in pursuit of a fleeing enemy (as well as the two gatlings carried on elephant back. my favourite part :)). sam jaffee as gunga din is not acceptable in these days...

Right on Wayne!!
"Gunga Din" was always one of my favorites too! and I cannot even count the times I watched it since I was a kid (was???).
One time (pre DVDs etc) and it was on late one night on TV and I wanted my wife to watch it with me...she said OK, but this time NO PITH HELMET!! Youre scarin' the cats!!!

Definitely no PCin those days, but the movies were fun.

a remake might be cool, if they didn't us cgi. the PC luvvies would likely mess it all up tho. especially reading the poem at the end. they'd rewrite kipling and add a few dance scenes. and using real extras would drive up the costs...hard to find a trio that would match, let alone a good ugly gunga din.

(wear your pith helmet next time. the cats will get used to it.)

I don't buy that. Going at 20mph, and encountering someone's rib cage is a stop enough. If pennons were of any use as an additional stop, the working life of a lancer would be quite brief, with dislocated shoulders and dismounted riders. I'll abstain from commenting on the cross bar for the same reasons.

If this were the case, then the artillerymen would probably be drawn and quartered, when captured. I think you are repeating a myth.

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean ;) .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? :rolleyes:.

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt; which contemporary eyewitness sources are you relying upon?

Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand. Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme. I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie.
The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times. I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S.

With the notes on lancers being quite despised, it was that it was thought less than honorable in combat to contact your opponent at a safe distance, as well as the horrifying prospect of being skewered on a pole. Also there were the realities of the often not immediately fatal wounds which carried debris from clothing (or even pennons) deep into the wounds bringing about fatal and lingering sepsis.
I will try to find my notes which were actually discussing 'the use of the lance' as well as circumstances surrounding those who used them.

One of the true reasons there were as many fatalities in the famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo in 1815 was that in the chaos which rather inherently results as the horsemen broke through the French redoubts, the Greys became scattered and unable to regroup. As the survivors scattered through the smoke and din, and officers lost among this, the French lancers were moving through these areas and with stunned riders or injured on the ground did dispatch many more of the Greys.

While not necessarily uncommon in battle, dispatching the wounded enemy, it is the thought of the lance having such dastardly connotation, which led to more disdain. The use of sword, knife or pistol in carrying out this common practice does not absolve the act regardless of weapon used.

It is most interesting to look at the historical perspectives concerning a certain weapon as often the manner of their use or the persons using them offer us clues in identifying them as well as often the period in use.

I found the following on the perceived ruthlessness of lancers:

”In the memoirs of Waterloo, the French lancers, galloping at will over the battlefield, sending saber-armed cavalry fleeing before them, and calmly stopping to finish off the wounded without even having to dismount, appear as an image of horror. Wyndham of the Scots Grays saw the lancers pursuing British dragoons who had lost their mounts and were trying to save themselves on foot. He noted the ruthlessness of the lancers' pursuit and watched them cut their victims down. Some British cavalrymen on foot slipped in the mud and tried to ward off the lance blows with their hands but without much success.
At Waterloo Sir Ponsonby together with his adjutant, Major Reignolds made a dash to own line, and a French lancer quickly began pursuing them. While they were crossing a plowed field, Ponsonby's horse got stuck in the mud in an instant, the lancer was upon him. Ponsonby threw his saber away and surrendered. Reignolds came to his aid, but the lancer compelled both of them to dismount under the threat of his lance. At that moment, a small group of Scots Grays happened to pass a short distance away, saw the three, and galloped shouting in their direction with the idea of liberating Sir Ponsonby. "In a flash, the Frenchman killed the general and his brigade major with 2 blows of his lance, then boldly charged the oncoming dragoons striking down 3 in less than a minute. The others abandoned the combat, completely incapable of holding their own against the enemy's deadly weapon." (Barbero - "The Battle" p 163)”

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.a..._Napoleon.html

Victrix, I thank you so much for that most telling account. That is exactly the scenario I was thinking of in my description, but could not find the source in which I had it.
There are of course many myths in the lore of battle, but many of the described notions held by historians are well founded such as this case.

Artillery levied a heavy toll on other ranks in battle, but I have never heard of any specific animosity toward them by troops as they were overrun or in many cases captured. Usually when defeat was imminent, guns would be abandoned but not without being 'spiked' or rendered otherwise useless if possible.

There are many sides of the perspectives of combat, and no particular account can say exactly how matters were between combatants. In this case, a contemporary account is shown regarding the lancers which illustrates the disdain for them as described.

Yes thank you Jim, the account does seem to support your notion. Callous but brave seems a good description of the lancers. Sticking down the poor unarmed General Ponsonby does not seem like good sport, although charging the numerically superior dragoons was undeniably brave.

Being a Lancer was fraught with danger and at the second battle of El Teb a particular danger was outlined here~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...tles_of_El_Teb

Quote" After a brief artillery duel, the Mahdist guns were silenced, and the British advanced. The Mahdists hid in trenches to avoid incoming British rifle and artillery rounds, then rushed out in small groups of twenty to thirty warriors instead of the massive attack that was expected. Another tactic was to pretend to lie dead on the battlefield as British cavalry charged through, then, as the cavalry returned at a slower pace back through the ranks of the 'dead', the Mahdists would rise up and slit the hamstrings of the horses then proceed to kill the riders. At the top of the hill, a village had been fortified by the Mahdists, and here they resisted the most stubbornly. The British infantry had to clear the trenches with bayonets after which the fighting died down."Unquote.

I don't recall such movie being exhibited over here, but i remember well one called "The Lives of a Bengal Lancer" here ran as "Lanceiros da India", with Gary Cooper (1935). I fail to remember if i managed to see it, potentialy by not being able to afford it or for being under age. So i ignore whether the name lancer was just their 'title' or if in fact they used lances on the field :o.

What an entry Jim; one you would label as 'absolutely superb' ;). I take a note on such well documented Gunga's outer wear. I know that you mentioned it to be of my interest, but i believe you knew my reach was instead a screamingly distinct one; like hoping that this thread, resurrected from 2012, would not now conduct its colateral fait divers to something like 'The art of killing with a lance" :rolleyes: .

I knew what Wayne mean, as one. I was trying to mark a thinking out score in that, such acronym out there has several meanings, personal computer for one. But all in all my reach was to distract us from derailing from the lance subject per se to a (more) gory periphery. Any battle weapon and its user are intendedly meant to damage the enemy; but i take it that we are not here to compete on whether one is more critisizable or damnable than the other

Is that a true inferrement ?. To make it right about such assumption, one would have to make a comparison between peoples of similar cultural levels and not (like often) comprehending an illiterate from one side with a well informed from the other, a rather common comparison driving to fake conclusion. Certainly many of us are not aware that the "politically correct" term was a movement that gained populariry in America by the nineties. Notably these depictions were perhaps expanded in the times of Gunga Din (for one) to reafirm prejudice, but eventually nowadays, we keep seeing in the movies, scenes of similar impact but, on the contrary, as a manner to condemn them.
But i couldn't go without quoting a member who prefered to do it by PM, on grounds that he wouldn't wish to stir further the off topic pot, in that a good example of PC is "Johnny Depp playing tonto in the lone ranger, no matter how good he is in the role" :eek:.

Apparently there is not much (easily affordable) info on the web about Portuguese lances. In any case a rather resumed story, as the origin of lancers forces is more than well identified.
Avoiding to risk repeating how much has being said about this subject, i will here just upload the pennants timely used by Portuguese forces, minding that our Lancers units became the current Military Police.
Noteworthy that, the purpose of pennants in the midle ages was aledgedly that of both identifying the heraldic sign of their knights and impressing the adversary with their 'flaming' waves. This could be true or not, but surely less gory than its purpose being to soak them with the enemy's blood, a not so romantic approach :shrug:.

1 - 1833-1890
2 - 1890-1891
3 - 1891- actuality
4 - Military (army) Police since 1980.
5 - A lancer of the 'old' British 17th regiment, the emblem and motto adopted by the Portuguese 2nd. Lancers.

.

i note the skull & crossed bones of no. 4 were used long before pirates (and johnny depp ;)) as a sign of death, and is frequently found on grave stones and markers in catacombs. i will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity.

i note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:

The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.

Charge of the 16th Lancers at the Battle of Aliwal by Mark Churms.

The 16th Lancers were part of General Sir Harry Smith's army consisitng of the British and Bengali army of 12,000 men and 30 guns against the Sikh army of 30,000 men and 67 guns of Ranjodh Singh during the First Sikh War which was fought on the 28th January 1848 in the Punjab in the North West of India. This painting depicts the 16th Lancers which were part of Brigadier Macdowell's brigade consisitng of the 16th Queen's Lancers, 3rd Bengal Light Cavalry and 4th Bengal Irregular Cavalry. The 16th Lancers charged several times during the action, breaking a number of Sikh infantry squares and overrunning a battery of Sikh artillery. The Lancers are shown wearing over their chapkas the white cotton cover which had been adopted for service in the tropics.

Good response Fernando!!
My bad on that movie title, "Last of the Bengal Lancers" was actually the book title of my late friend, Brig. Francis Ingall, who wrote that book as his biography about his service in these units in the Khyber Agency in the 30s.

The Gary Cooper movies was indeed "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" which was if I recall another autobiography by a British officer in the same period and regions.

On the underwear, of course I knew what you meant using analogy and was just responding in that same vein. I also realize that the discussion had taken an unfortunate but often unavoidable course in recognizing certain aspects of the use of a weapon. While understandable that we should not dwell on these matters, for those of us who are more historians than collectors, we often must include perspectives that are not always pleasant.
Actually warfare itself is not pleasant, but we are studying weapons, so it is sometimes a necessary evil to put the good with the bad I guess.
You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible.

The PC served well as a deviation, as I admit the topic was one encountered quite often in our pages, and always seems to get the editorial wheels grinding. Unfortunately, those kinds of topics usually end up with heated and conflicting results, even threads being closed.

The input on the lance pennons and detail toward Portuguese use is great! and the illustrations much appreciated. As you have noted, and as I have found in several sources, the pennon apparently did serve as an identifying element, contrary to what I had said in an earlier post. In certain cases there were separate units who had varied color combinations to specify themselves for reforming on maneuvers.
However, most of these lancer units seem to have used a nationally specific combination, such as black & white, Germany; red & white Poland (later adopted by England in recognition of the Polish ).

The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades, has in my view been thoroughly debunked.

Wayne, well noted about the skull and crossbones, a topic we have often covered in the many threads on pirates and their lore. As you have shown, this symbol goes back a long way into history, and was indeed used around burial places signifying of course death.
Actually the piratical connotation is believed to derive from the fact that in ships logs and rosters, a sailor when deceased had this symbol drawn next to his name. As many sailors became pirates, they recalled the practice, and considered themselves effectively 'outlaw' or 'dead to the world', thus the symbol for these brethren of the sea. Alternatively, the foreboding symbol of course signified death, or more accurately the 'no quarter' implication often flown by these pirates, previously signified by the 'red flag'.

The color red in signifying 'no quarter' was well known among Spanish forces as well, termed 'deguello' and accompanied by a musical durge (as seen in "The Alamo" movie). Perhaps the red color and addition of the skull and crossbones lent to the pennon choice seen here.

Ibrahiim, excellent image of the charge of the 16th Lancers at Aliwal. If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition.
After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle. Years later, the custom was adopted by troopers of the RCMP in Canada, however was abandoned when Queen Victoria objected to their use of a hallowed tradition held by the British 16th Lancers.

Currently an infantile taste, i must say :rolleyes:

As mentioned above in pennant no. 5; and as i said, Portuguese (real) lancers units gave place to military police units, their barracks/units still being called of Lanceiros.

That guy in the right of your picture; was by then minister of Defence.

A difficult task for an arms historian, so i see ...

Haven't you already narrated this chapter in post #41 of this thread ;)

Take care :cool: .

Yup, sure did, but often the previous posts are overlooked, so reiterating is helpful, especially if a passage is necessary for a point.
You're right too, it is hard to be a historian in the world of collectors and dealers, and what I have come to understand as separate worlds.
Thanks again for the informative entries.

Interesting thread.
Hope to add a lance to my collection some day.

Here is a picture I took at a demonstration last may 2017 at Huis Doorn (NL)

Best regards,
Willem

The 16th Lancers at Aliwal.