Great video he is really good but I doubt that keris was 500 yrs old it looked more recent to me?

Lew

He did not say how old the keris was, he just said "its old"

When he referred to the Vedic period he was saying that the symbol of the winged horse has its origins in the pri Islamic Vedic period.

I think he said it was Bali or Lombak and it was from when the Indians ruled that area but I could be wrong? The blade looks to be Sulwasi or Bugis to me too small to be Bali?

Lew

Well, Steve seems like a nice chap and he sure does move pretty well, but i think it's fair to say that he doesn't know squat about keris. Firstly this keris, or at least the dress that he comments on is a very typical form of Madurese keris, not Lombak or Bali. He moves the blade quickly so it is hard to see, but it doesn't look all that impressive and my feeling is that this is a piece "made for travelers" so i doubt this would be a piece with much life energy in it. Hard to say without handling it though. The winged horse is a symbol rather specific to Madurese form an is post-Hindu as far as i know. Infact it may well be a European influenced symbol as the Madurese incorporated quite a bit of that into there dress designs.
Also i dare say that for someone who has traveled so much in Indonesian he hardly treats the blade in the manner i would expect to see from a person claiming to be knowledgable of the tradition. None of this, of course, necessarily reflects on his knowledge or abilities in silat. :)

I thought his demonstration of fighting with his eyes covered showed that he has sufficient sensitivity to know if the blade is alive or not.
His definition of a keris being “real” or not is quite simplistic but I like it. Basically if it is “alive” it is real and if it is “dead” it is not a real keris.

So by this logic every new keris made by a talented panday is not a 'Real Keris' !?!
I don't mean to insult Pusaka but I think this viewpoint is sort of silly .

I'm sure the fellow is a very talented martial artist and blindfolded combat is not unique to this gentleman's repertoire ; I've seen others fight blindfolded.

I take exception with his very narrow view of what is and is not a real keris.
If this works for you; fine , but I must ask how; in future discussions here when pictures of kerises are presented; are you going to know if they're real kerises ?

Sorry Pusaka, but i am not convinced that one thing is necessarily indicative of the other. Like i said, he is a good fighter, but he knows very little about keris. That sheath contains no Vedic symbols and is definitely from Madura, not Lombak or Bali. I tried to get a better look with freeze-frame and it does appear that it might be a pamored blade (sorely in need of re-staining), though it doesn't appear to be one crafted with any particular skill and is most probably village work. It is small and may be a patrem or possibily a dukkun's keris as he suggests, but it is questionable that even if this keris once were "alive" when it was maintained that it would still be so in it's current state. Many "real" keris no longer hold spiritual energy as that energy was maintained by the line of ownership and the care and feeding of that energy by that family line. Does that mean that an empu made keris that has sat in a Dutch museum since the 17th or 18th century and lost it's energy due to lack of care and feeding is no longer a "real" keris.

This is a difficult one to answer, a lot depends on personal belief as to what a keris is. If a modern keris was made with all the care, attention and preparation as in older times then I would not hesitate to call it a “real” keris. If on the other hand a keris was rapidly beaten out, artificially aged and clearly made with little attention or skill I would have no hesitation in calling it a piece of junk and I have to say personally I would not regard it as a real keris. Ebay is full of such keris.
I am aware that there is a difference between a keris made for everyday use and a keris pusaka. The icing on the cake is if the blade is alive or not, if it has undergone the correct and complete process then it is. If it has not then it is just a piece of metal.
How long does it take a keris to die I cant answer, how long does it take a magnet to completely lose its magnetism? It will get weaker over time but it will probably always contain some residual magnetism, “life”.
I think of a real keris blade as a vassal suitably constructed so that it can be empowered and retain that for some period of time. It requires two things, firstly it must be physically constructed in the correct manner from suitable materials and secondly it must have undergone a meditative preparation.
A keris that was just hammered out with little care is not in the position to be empowered and neither can it ever become “alive”
On the other hand a keris which was constructed in the correct manner and with the correct care, even if its life has faded over time due to neglect it is in the position where it could be given new life by a good owner.
Hope I haven’t overdone it with the mystical talk about dead and alive keris :D but this is just my personal thoughts about keris, and “real” keris.

So finally my definition of a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

And a fake keris, a blade made in such a manner that it never was nor never will be a suitable vassal to be empowered.

You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ?
If it is real then how did you make it so ?

Also I'd like to bring up the concept that a comissioned keris (old or new) was made to suit the person who comissioned it; the pamor, prayers, etc. directed for that one individual. Now when this piece comes into the market and is bought by another person how can it still be living and incorporate whatever traits were imbued in it for a total stranger ?

This concept puzzles me . :confused:

I always thought that the pamor and prayers used in making the keris would be passed on the the next person who owned it that is of course that they have respect fo the keris in the traditional sense? I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma. So if a keris is made by a skilled panday or smith it should always carry some type of spirit in it especially from the maker who has put part of himself in the keris.


Lew

Well, we seem to be getting off on a tangent here since this thread is supposed to be about fighting with keris, using the keris as a physical weapon, not as a spiritual tool. But here we are. :) You don't need to apologize for the mystical talk Pusaka, it's pretty difficult not to talk about it when it comes to keris.
As for what's alive or not, IMHO, it is clear to me that EVERYTHING is alive. This is not just a mystical philosophy, it is a scientific fact. EVERYTHING is alive on the sub-atomic level. I believe the sub-atomic is the conduit for the mystical/magical current. A trained "practitioner" can embue purpose and access power from a safety pin if necessary. Keris have been constructed for many different purposes over the centuries. Certainly the level of skill and attention, energy and prayers directed into that construction has helped to open these tools as a conduit for whatever purpose they were constructed for. But untimately it is my believe that in the end power resides in the practitioner, not the object. This doesn't mean that a properly constructed keris, embued with the right prayers and energy in accordance with that practitioners beliefs won't make a better conduit for the work that practitioner does with the keris.
If we are collecting old keris it seems somewhat unreasonable to think that a blade specially prepared to do a particular mystical/magickal working for a particular person from a foreign culture 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago will automatic deliver the same mystical/magickal energy to me. Likewise a keris pusaka that carries the energy of family power and lineage is not going to transfer the power and energy of that family's bloodline to me simply because it has somehow come into my hands. I must make my own pusaka if that is my purpose. For these reasons i can see why a silat practitioner who does not have bloodline ties to Indonesian culture might prefer to have a new keris to an old one, as Lew suggests, but if i were an Indonesian practitioner i think i would be quite happy with my father's keris. :)

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

This is also my experience. When Grand Tuhon Gaje started to visit me in Stockholm about 10 years ago he went through my old blades and sensed the vibes of them. Which ones who had killed somebody and those few that had not. He also told me that he didn't like old blades because of the bad forces that could live in them based on what they have been part of. The only antique blade that he used himself was the swords of his maternal grandfather. Otherwise he always preferred new blades made specifically for him. But at least my old sword mounted Lading from Sumba seems to be OK because that's the one he picked for the cover picture of the Swedish MA magazine Fighter. :)
I never asked my Silat/Kuntao teacher about this but he always also use new blades.

Michael

In most cases a new blade is better (because it is clean) as long as you can get someone to make a suitable blade to a reasonable standard. Today this however is becoming difficult because most won’t spend the time and will just hammer out the blade as fast as possible so that they can get started with the next order.
How can you make a blade come alive? Well there is a method but as lots of things in silat they don’t talk about it openly. Not only is there a method of making a blade come alive but there is also a method of erasing previous energies in the blade. When given a old keris it is standard practice to first clean it but its not just a physical cleaning.
In any case a blade that was used to kill and owned by a bad owner is seen as a dirty thing both physically and energetically.
A keris will setup an atmosphere around it which will effect all that encounter it whether it was made for them or not. A good keris will have positive effects whilst a bad keris will have negative effects.
If a person does not have the ability to sense that a keris is bad or good then he is advised to put it under his pillow and if it results in bad dreams the owner will not keep it no matter how beautiful the blade is.

Yes that keris is mine. What do I mean by that? I have other keris hanging on my wall but I only have one keris which I consider my personal keris. You can only ever have one keris which you make your own, not a whole wall full. I commissioned it and it was made for me but when I received it it was real in the sense that it was made to a suitable physical standard however it will only becomes “alive” if I make it mine.

As I said previously:

a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

Hopefully I have by now totally confused everyone :D

Zartane, don't get me wrong, i enjoy a good story as well...just for the pleasure of it. :) However, when you first brought this story to this thread you clearly were using it as a possible reason for a historical reality and not telling it as one of the many legends based on this story, but as a truth:
"my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves.."

That was my only issue, that stories like these should not be used to make a case for academic questions. I am still quite interested in this legend and i am still curious if your telling of the legend is particular to silat teachings since i have not hear this telling from any other source. :)

...when and where...
 

Interesting legend... in Jawa itself there is no story of either a man or a keris called Taming Sari, and also the power in Jawa at the time of Malaka would have been Demak rather than Majapahit, would it not?

Notes from the Xeng He armada and olso from early Portugese adventurers tell about keris and tombak fighting, so it might be safe to assume that at that time keris fighting was normal. Wayang wong in Sriwedari also depicts keris fighting so there must have been some form of it some time. Just at the end of Demak, Arya Penangsang famousely kills himself by mistake with his own keris and Sutawijaya, founder of Mataram, is said to be so impressed by the valour of his enemy who had hisa stomach cut open and his intestines hanging over his keris that he started a tradition to put wreaths of jasmine on the handle of a groom's keris.

Sultan Agung gave kinatah Gajah-Singa to commemorate the defeat of the Bupati Pati by his forces and is also credited with creating the character Gendring Caluring (Buta Cakil) in wayang kulit - who inevitably gets killed by his own keris at the hands of Arjuna.

I have a feeling that this is the time we should look at to find why and when the Jawa keris stopped being imagined to be used in fighting. Sultan Agung then went on to attempt to sack Batavia but lost twice.

Pak Boedhi mentioned back, that in Yogyakarta kraton most keris are fixed to the handle using resin (dijabung) ... and also the small keris handle fits more snugly in the hand if one holds the keris between the thumb and forefinger, pinching the blumbangan. True, the larger Surakarta ukiran still alows this grip but it doesn't feel as right. With this grip I feel the keris is live and it does fit in to silat moves easily like a long feather of a crane or eagle.

Thank you all for the discussion and to those of you who are Muslim, selamat hari raya Idul Fitri, mohon ma'af lahir dan batin.

Bram.

On the lighter side
 

Fighting with keris :mad:

Well this has become quite a long thread! So stop fighting with your keris and make up. Can't we all just get along :). I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris :D

Lew

Sad but true Lew, sad but true... ;)