Pak David, in Bali i know exactly keris not for fighting except Puputan, here i will not explain about what is Puputan. In Bali they keep keris in Holly Room, or in Pura (as Pertime), but keris for collection is different.

Just for an example in Kosamba War, Anak Agung Istri Kania and her troops killed General Michiels and some of his leutenants not using keris but using tombak n gun, keris just for sikep.

Just to be clear, i do not believe anyone here is suggesting that the keris was used as a prime weapon of war. Even before the introduction of the gun tombak would have been a perferred weapon in warfare over the keris. It has been put forth that the keris once acted as a personal side arm that might protect from theives or other troubles on the road, for instance.
The Kusamba war and the Puputans are both fairly recent events in the great scheme of the keris. But are attitudes that were held then or today the same attitudes that were held during the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries? Can anyone show proof of this?

Bram, I thank you most sincerely for your respectful form of address, however, since I am not Indonesian, and this is an English language forum, I would feel more comfortable with observation of English language convention by using only my name, without the title "Pak". Even though we have not been formally introduced, you may use my first name, rather than my family name.


Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

I understand your reference now. The word is "cencem", to soak in oil and poison. This appears to be another example of dialect difference that makes Javanese such a nightmare of a language.I am aware of this practice, and in my files I have several recipes for preparation of the soak medium. I have no doubt at all that you may have seen blades being prepared for use in this way, my only question related to the word you used.

Yes, kanuragan can be a part of pencak silat, or it can stand alone, but it is not a synonym for pencak silat. Kanuragan is perhaps more similar to tenaga dalam , than to the pencak forms, and is essentially a mystical practice, rather than a physical one.

I am not familiar with the word:- "katosan".

Can you please elucidate? Thank you.

Regarding Gusti Djuminah. I will preface my remarks by saying that I have only a slight understanding of the situation in Yogyakarta , and especially in the Kraton Yogya , at the time of the transmission of power from HB VII to HBVIII. However, what I have read indicates that the crown prince was a a troublemaker and obstructionist, who did indeed seem to pose future problems for the Dutch administration. In light of the wealth that HBVII accrued under Dutch policy, this would seem to have been a particularly stupid attitude to adopt, and since the well being of the people of Yogya was dependent upon the economy of the region, it could be, and apparently was, interpreted by many people as a betrayal of the people who were resident of Yogyakarta.

I can fully understand how some people, particularly a dispossessed grandson, may feel about the failure of his grandfather to take the crown, however, I would suggest that the reason for this denial of birthright by the Dutch had more to do with the political incompetence of the crown prince, rather than his interest in pencak silat.

I have absolutely no idea what could have been the cause of death in the case of the person stabbed in the thigh by a badik that had been stained with warangan.

But I am absolutely certain that it was not the warangan.

One may believe whatever one wishes in this respect, or any other, and for the person who believes that a blade treated with warangan will ensure a certain and swift death, then for that person, this is fact.However, the reality is that a blade which has been subjected to the process of warangan bears no active warangan upon its surface, and even if it did, the quantity that it might bear would be more of a medicinal nature than of death dealing one.

I did not say that Merpati Putih began prior to Kartosuro.

I said that Merpati Putih USA claimed this.

Personally, I find it very, very difficult to believe that Merpati Putih came from a royal source, or that it has roots going any further back than the 19th. century.

During colonial times practitioners of pencak silat were used by the Dutch administration as overseers. One of the ways in which an ordinary worker could gain advancement was to hone his martial arts skills and rise to the rank of an overseer or a controller. The elite of these people, known as "jago" were used by the Dutch as standover men and hit men.

The Dutch favoured Chinese people as tax collectors for a similar reason:- the Chinese martial art of kun tao---of which I can personally attest the effectiveness---seemed to be regarded at that time as a virtually unstoppable force, and as such more effective as an administrative tool than the various forms of pencak silat. So, the Chinese tax collectors could be expected , if necessary, to meet with little or no resistance from people relying on pencak silat.This, of course, is one of the principal roots of the dislike of the Chinese by the Javanese:- the Dutch employed the Chinese to collect tax and as a tool of enforcement that was more effective than the other tools of enforcement used by the Dutch.The Chinese were also more commercially able than the Javanese, so the people of Jawa were faced by a Dutch tool that had not only a commercial mentality, but had the physical ability to enforce Dutch demands.This must have been a truly horrible situation to live under.

Pencak silat appears to have entered Central Jawa during the 19th century, having been brought there by overseers whom the Dutch imported from Sunda. Sunda had been developed for Dutch purposes prior to the development of the Central Javanese plain, so when the farming lands of Central Jawa began to be exploited for Dutch gain, they used experienced overseers and controllers from their plantations in Sunda.

This appearance of pencak silat in the Javanese heartland during the 19th century would explain why Javanese literature from Centini and before appears to have no mention of pencak silat.

A further reason for the non-appearance of references in Javanese literature to pencak silat could well be because pencak silat seems to have been an art of the masses, rather than an art of the elite. Since the literature of early Jawa all comes from palace sources, one could hardly expect palace poets to write of the doings of labourers.

On the other hand, the practice of mystical exercises in attempts to gain invulnerability does sit perfectly with Javanese kraton culture of the colonial period, thus I believe we can accept that kanuragan was practiced amongst the elites during the colonial period

Let me conclude my remarks with this rider:-

I have no interest in any martial art, and I have no agenda to promote one martial art above any other, equally, I have no intent to denigrate any martial art.

I have a high respect for all martial artists because of their dedication to an athletic ideal that embodies both physical and mental prowess.

The martial arts of Jawa form a part of the culture of Jawa, and as such have my respect, however, to misrepresent, or to distort the true history and nature of this cultural element of Jawa is to do a disservice to the cultural inheritance of the Javanese people.

I personally feel that Pak Bambang`s submission on the present day position of the keris in Javanese society belongs exactly where it is.

I think the original question was something like---"when did the keris cease to be a weapon"

Pak Bambang`s submission , I believe, is perfectly in context with the search for an answer to this question, for as he points out, he is presenting only one aspect of the nature of the keris, and that aspect relates to present day belief.

I understand perfectly where Pak Bambang is coming from, and although I do not personally agree with this position, I would be a fool if I did not acknowledge that for many people in present day Jawa, what Pak Bambang has written represents the truth.

This of course raises the question of the nature of truth, but truth, like history , becomes actual when sufficient people believe that something is so.

For instance, Pak Bambang has used the dapur brojol as an example to reinforce his position.

However---

the word "brojol" has the meaning:- "lower on one side than on the other"

the association of dapur brojol with the birthing process draws upon derivatives of "brojol", that is, "mbrojol", "kebrojol", and "kebrojolan"

For somebody who wishes to attach a symbolic meaning to dapur brojol, it is natural that that symbolic meaning should be to do with birth, and if sufficient people believe that the placement of a keris of dapur brojol under a bed when a woman is ready to give birth, will ease that birth, then for those people, and for the woman concerned, the keris will ease the birth.

But for an objective cynic, dapur brojol is named thus because the base of the blade is very obviously lower on one side than on the other.

Regarding the cultural position of the keris in Bali.

Pak Bambang, I regret that I must disagree with your statements in this regard.

Whilst it is true that the keris did play a part in the puputans, a study of early literature and sources makes it very clear that the keris in Bali prior to European domination of Bali, very definitely fulfilled a weapon role. Most certainly, the role of the Balinese keris as a weapon varied significantly from the role of the spear, the sword, and firearms, but this current sanitisation of the Balinese keris is completely off the mark when measured against the evidence.

Sorry Alan, i did not mean to imply that Bambang's submission was inappropriate to this thread. I was merely encouraging him to start a new thread that might go more in depth on these present day beliefs. As you point out, there are a great many people in Jawa today who accept these relatively modern philosophies of the keris as fact. I personally think there is much to be found in this approach to keris as a spiritual path. I just think that it is a subject that goes beyond the context here and is deserving of a thread of it's own. :)

Yes, I take your point, David.

Perhaps we could all benefit from an exploration of this aspect of the keris.

I do still feel that Pak Bambang`s contribution belongs where it is, for my already stated reason. After all, the keris has had different natures at different times in its history, and here we have a good, clear explanation of how some people regard the nature of the keris today.

This effectively says:- in Jawa, in the year 2006, and for some indeterminate time prior to that, a body of people do not accept that the nature of the keris is that of weapon.

By clearly establishing this attitude at this time and place, it frees us to move backwards in time to the point where the keris was regarded as a weapon.

I personally see Pak Bambang`s contribution as quite valuable in establishing these parameters of time and place.

However, perhaps somebody who holds similar beliefs to those put forward by Pak Bambang may feel inclined to open new discussion along these lines.

to fight or not to fight
 

Alan, katosan (from the word atos) is a synonym to kanuragan. It is certainly more tenaga-dalam and magic knowledge than pencak-silat movement. Names such as Brajamusthi, Lembu Sekilan, Gelap Ngampar...

From what I know, originally Merpati Putih was also a breathing system without silat movement. The silat movement came later in the 20th century. Myself, I practise Bangau Putih, which before RI was called Kuntao. During the early Rekiblik years in Yogya, pencak silat recieved much support and developed rapidly with people like Pak Sukowinadi and Pak Harimurti teaching it to the masses. I think that Pakualam was very interested in silat as well and during the 19th century brought in teachers to teach the princes.

In Central Jawa it would seem that most silat traces it's lineage to Cimande in Bogor or to the people of Minangkabau land, or the Bugis and the Madurese. However, reading Pramoedya Ananta Toer's descriptions of Galeng's fights in his novel Arus Balik, it would seem that Pak Pram (alm) believed that pencak was already there at the fall of Majapahit. O'ong Maryono's research found the first mention of pencak silat in literature was in Kidung Sundayana in the sad story of the Pajajaran puputan against Gajahmada.

Now, back to the keris as a fighting weapon. Myself I would be inclined to believe that although the keris was used as the last weapon, the fact that many keris do not have the structural integrity to be used in a fight, makes me think that the fighting part, in Jawa, was always secondary to the sipat-kandhel function. I would imagine that if the keris was primarily a weapon, the design would have somewhat become more specialized for the purpose. If I were to make a fighting keris I would make sure there was a sturdy ada-ada and a screw type pesi to make it hold stronger in the ukiran.

You find all sorts of keris with tangguh that indicate rather ancient times, Jenggala, Kediri, for example... and also in these ancient tangguh, you have the huge variety of dhapur, some would be more suitable for fighting than the others. I would imagine that if the keris was primarily a side-arm, then there would not be that many dhapur as only the practical ones would be ordered. I believe the situation is thus in Malaysia, Sumatra, the Philippines, the Bugis all of them have rather simple and much more sturdy keris than the Jawa blade.

Regarding Gusti Juminah, the website you pointed me to was Pak Bagong's brother's website. There he is said to be membelot (to become traitor) but the subject of that site is his grandson, and to become traitor to the Dutch means to become hero to the people.

I am still interested in the angle the ukiran is fitted on to the tang. Does anyone have any information about how the Jawanese positioned the ukiran in pre-Mataram II times?

Warm salams to all,
Bram.

Well, i did finally get the sound to work on this video. If these spiders are so deadly and kill within hours, can someone tell be why they are crawling all over these guys in the video? I also don't see how the poisons that these spiders supposedly carry can survive the fire and the acid that is used in this process. The whole thing sounds pretty sketchy to me. :rolleyes:

Bram, i wonder if your best bet on this question would be to view some of the early acquistions that are in some Dutch museums and collections. I think some of these were collected as early as the 16th century. Though it is possible that the hilts have moved position over the years i think this would be our best chance of seeing the presentation of a keris from that era.
While many keris may not have the structural integrity for fighting, many actually do. So likewise one might ask why bother making a blade with the structural integrity to fight if that is not it's intention. Why bother to temper blades. Many modern keris makers do not quelch the blade after forging for fear of destroying their work, but this was not the case with older keris. Why did mpus in the past take the risk to quelch blades is they didn't need to be battle-ready? Also it is certainly the case that many of the older blades that we see have had their structural integrity compromised by many years of acid washings. Again, pristine blades that are held in old collections that have not gone through this continual process might prove to be more structurally sound and battle ready.
Certainly there were always blades that were made purely for talismanic purposes and these may have always been thin or in some way physically unsuitable for fighting. Your point about the many different dapurs is well taken, but keep in mind that the vast majority of keris are simple, straight blades. I would not be surprised to find that different and complex dapurs were developed over the years with purely symbolic purposes involved. Still, many straight, sturdy and practical blades have come out of Jawa over the centuries which would do quite well in a fight.

Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

This is the first time I have heard or read katosan. I understand the root, but to find this word I had to look at five different Javanese dictionaries before I found "katosan" in one of them as a derivative of "atos", and given as a synonym of "kadigdyan", which I think is a fairly commonly used word. Thanks for this knowledge.

I did not know that Bangau Putih was Kun Tao. My wife was a dedicated practitioner of kun tao in her youth, and has several fairly respected kun tao people in her family, all older people, and located in East Jawa. They still refer to kun tao as kun tao.

Your outline of the origins of silat is more or less as I understand it, but I really don`t think we can place a lot of historical credibility on the writings of a popular novelist, no matter how respected he may be. Ever watch "Angling Darmo" or any of the other Indonesian historical soaps? Or for that matter, look at the way popular writers present the history and society of any country. No, I really do feel that we must treat Pramoedya Ananta Toer's work in the way it was intended to be treated.

I am familiar with the Kidung Sundayana, and a quick check of my copies does not seem to have any mention of pencak silat. I am not claiming that the version accessed by O'ong Maryono does not mention pencak silat, however, it would be interesting to know what version that was, and what canto within the work. Do you have access to this information?

However, be that as it may, I think we can probably accept that during the period when rulers were dependent upon the physical prowess of individual warriors for the maintenance of their military power, pencak silat, or something rather like it would have been one of the required capabilities of at least some of the royal forces. I seem to recall reading somewhere that early Chinese merchants used to be accompanied by professional "empty hand" fighters when they visited Jawa. I guess there was probably some transference of knowledge from that direction too.

Regarding the keris and its capability as a weapon. When we look at an old keris now, we should try to bear in mind that what we usually see is only a shadow of what that keris was when it was new.Examination of early keris that were taken to Europe when those keris were new, or near to it, demonstrates quite conclusively that the types of keris that we are used to regarding as slight and frail, when new, were very serious weapons.I suggest reference to "Den Indonesiske Kris"--Karsten Sejr Jensen--ISSN 0108-707X.

On the subject of tangguh, one should consider the social reasons for the origin of this system of classification, before attaching too much credibilty to the alignment of any specific tangguh with a historical period.

Yes, I do understand the reversal of roles that could be applied to Gusti Djuminah, however, the fact remains that the public sources relating to this gentleman indicate that he was at the very least , politically inept. It is obvious that the Dutch could not afford to approve the installation of a traditional lord whose character and attitudes were such that it was feared he could bring economic ruin to the area over which he held control.Under HBVII enormous wealth had flowed into the Yogya area, which benefitted not only HBVII, but also his people, and not least the Dutch. It would appear that many people at that time were afraid that if Gusti Djuminah were to be installed as HBVIII Yogya would suffer economic reversal. The reason he was not installed as HBVIII was because it was believed that his taking of the crown could have resulted in economic ruin for that part of Jawa. His grandson may believe that it was because Gusti Djuminah had an interest in pencak silat, that Gusti Djuminah did not ascend the throne, personally I prefer to accept the historical version rather than the grandson`s version. But we are all free to believe that which we will.

Just as an aside:- it really does assist in understanding what occurred in Jawa, and the rest of the old Dutch East Indies, under the Dutch, if one adopts the attitude of an accountant. Every single action that involved the Dutch in the Indies, following the bankruptcy in 1798 of the VOC, and the assumption of its role by the Dutch Government, was the product of a bureaucratic philosophy administered by accountants. The Dutch were very good accountants.

This ongoing question of handle position on a Central Javanese keris is easily understood if the keris is held correctly. The blade is pinched between thumb and forefinger,at the blumbangan, and the first joint of the index finger is anchored against the gonjo, the middle finger, ring finger, and little finger lightly touch the handle but have only a guide and balance role. Held in this way, there is no pressure on the handle at all, it simply acts as an aid to blade orientation. The handle is used to draw the keris, and to replace it, but if the keris is to be used, it is not held by the handle, but by the method described above. The essence of keris use is that it must be very, very fast. Ideally so fast that the blade is not seen. Try holding a keris as I have described and see how very much faster this is than gripping it by the handle. A Javanese keris gripped by the handle really feels very clumsy and "dead".

You are welcome Alan, I learn new things from you and the members of this forum as well. Katosan - kadigdayan - kanuragan - jaya kawijayann and even sometimes called kanoman - from the word anom (young) meaning usually you learn these things when you are young.

Yes, Persatuan Gerak Badan Bangau Putih comes from Pek Ho Pay, based on Chinese White Crane from a Chinese family in Bogor's 'Chinatown'. The older generation still calls it kuntao but as you would know, under $uharto it was 'illegal' to be Chinese.

Easy here Alan, I don't think that Pak Pram (alm) can be compared to the historical soaps which are made without any research. When I was younger I used to visit Pak Pram under house arrest and once he told me that he wrote for Nation Building - he was a Soekarno admirer.

You are lucky to have Kidung Sundayana, Alan. I read about it in Pencak Silat Merentang Waktu by O'ong Maryono...It is not called silat by the way, rather the word used is ulin - play. It is mentioned in the part describing the Pajajaran King's retinue, there were performances of fighters who would ulin with various weapons. I havn't got O'ongs book at hand though.

Very interesting, thank you for telling me this.

It always baffled me that there were sophisticated dhapurs in tangguh Jenggala and tangguh Kediri when the reliefs on the candi built by Singasari showed more simple 'primitive' betok types.

Well, his grandson happens to be one of my Gurus and several of his his great grandchildren are my brothers, so while I understand the Dutch position, I believe the family. After all, the Dutch shouldn't have been there in the first place. Since the beginning Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat had an anti-colonial streak to it. An other of my Guru, the poet Rendra, comes from the Suryoningalaga house of Yogyakarta. His father was a silat teacher in the kraton before he had an argument with the Suktan and he moved to Solo.

So true, something to always remember.

I tried this, problem was then that I did not have the strength to stab, could easily slip and cut my hand. I think the Sumatra - Malay way of positioning the ukiran is the 'correct' way to have it if the keris is to be used to fight. That way it is like a pistol grip and you can stab as hard as you like without the risk of your hand slipping.

Thanks for the dialogue I really appreciate it.

Hormat saya,
Bram.

Oh, I see, "play" rather than "pencak silat".

Yes, that is understandable. There is mention of keris play in the Pararaton too.However, the translation of "ulin" as "play" has me puzzled. In Old Javanese "ulin" has a couple of different meanings, but "play" is not one of them. The closest we can get to play is probably "wave", or "hold up".Still I guess that depending on the context, one of these meanings might be able to be stretched to "play".

Regarding the keris grip. It does work, some years back when I had an interest in the more bloody aspects of keris study I was taught how to hold and use a keris in this way. It would be difficult to use an old, worn keris like this, because the narrowness of the top of the gonjo will bite into the index finger, but with a keris that provides sufficient support for the index finger, this grip works beautifully.In fact, held correctly in this way, the keris locks itself into your hand.There is absolutely no risk of your hand slipping down the blade, because that blade is locked against the base of the index finger.

Dear Kyai Carita,

As I'm mostly handling the Jogja's style handles, which are very probably the smallest style of keris' handles, I suggest a slightly different/modified way of (Javanese) keris handles gripping. I, and most experienced keris's lover here in Jogja as I observed, pinched the end of mendhak where it meets ganja (very much likely as you pinch your steak knife). The end of the handle should rest firmly on the lower part/base of your palm, and other fingers (that are, your middle, ring, and little fingers) should keep the handle that ways. In this way, your elbow, forearm and pesi should make a straight line (in 'ready-to-stab' position) while the tip/point of angled blade should resemble your (now curled) index finger. You may employ this method just before you draw your keris, as the proper way to draw the Javanese keris is to push the 'thorn' part of wrangka with your thumb. If you are right handed, the gandhik should face left and the buntut urang/'tail' should protect your outer side of the hand. It is suggested that you held the keris at waist height, and strike only the opponent's abdoment or heart, by pushing the keris with your palm. If the keris where made and handled properly, it's handling would be very firm and as natural as pointing and thrusting with your index finger. It is, as Alan said, a serious (and deadly) weapons. Despite it's 'clumsy' appearance, it has been proven to be very functional and ergonomic as a stabbing weapon. IMHO, that's why other area outside Java (while many expert believe, Java is the home of keris) adopt the keris as one of their personal 'arsenal', despite their own 'indigenous' weapons such as Badik or Rencong which roughly are the same 'class'.
Pinching blumbangan/pejetan, as Alan suggested, would certainly works and very fine too, but it may stained your blade (something you wouldn't consider in the face of enemy, I believe). Handling and drawing the keris as the same as golok would show instantly (in Java) that the handler is inexperience. Please remind, the Javanese handles are gauged for Javanese, which, I believe, has smaller hand/palm than Caucasian, in general.

About the handle position of Javanese keris, it is already 'battle ready' as it is. No need to change it to an angled position such as Malay/Bugis handle. It just need a firm and proper fitting. No gap allowed between the ganja, mendhak and handle. It is recommended to use shellac to mount the handle to give it firm fit, If you consider to use it as a weapon. I should tell you, contrary to common belief to mount keris handle with hair in old days, ALL Jogjakarta Court and their very immediate families' keris handles are shellaced. Hair and cloth seems to be used by commoners.

About the poisons,..
Well, as Alan said, warangan mainly composed of Arsenic, which is a 'slow poison', unless you take it a teaspoonfull. Proper method of 'marangi' would only leave a small amount of it on the blade (I'm not saying none!), which, I believe, not capable of poisoning someone to death in hours. It may have some effect, such as a long healing wound, but will not kill you instantly or in hours. I don't know the effect of other poisoning methods already mentioned. While it is written in Ensiklopedi Keris, I have never met,heard or found someone here in Jogja practising the 'Cacab/Cem-ceman' method. I suggest someone give it a try (to mice or other creatures, if you have a heart, and not human or fellow forumities certainly), and I would love to hear the result :)
Another way of making the blade poisonous by villagers in marangi process include coating the blade with over-saturated warangan solutions (usually the white, low grade, cheap one) and to let it dry under the sun without cleaned it first. The result is the blade covered with warangan powder, which is not only ugly and dirty, but may corroded the blade as the acid wasn't cleaned properly. Rust may occurs in several days. Don't do it at home, please.

About the 'poisoning' effect of keris or tombak, Harimurti AKA Ndoro Hari, the son of Prince Tejokusuma HB VII (as already mentioned by Kiai Carita as a famous Pendekar of Jogjakarta) had a story, which is quoted in a book dedicated to him, written by one of his students, S. Lumintu (and then quoted by me :) ): When Ndoro Hari was young, he used to follow the close 'free-fight-championship' followed by many pendekars, and only pendekar allowed. It was a very deadly championship, as 'free' means 'free', you may use any method and any weapons you wish. The death result, was very common. One day, Ndoro Hari must fought against pendekar which use a tombak pusaka as his weapon. Ndoro Hari saw as if there was a flame covering the tombak. He knew, it was a deadly tombak. At the end of the fight, Ndoro Hari, who used no weapon, managed to catch the tombak under his armpit and step on the wooden shaft and broke it, and thus succesfully defeat his opponent. Unfortunately, when he caught the tombak, it left a minor cut on his waist. Just after the fight, he felt he lost his strength, and the cut felt like burning. He asked his companion to brought him to a Kyai who was his teacher in Ngawi quickly, which was several hours away (Ndoro Hari had many teachers. He wandered Java to learn pencak silat). Reaching Ngawi, Ndoro Hari was already weak, he couldn't walk by himself. His teacher quickly helped him. 'If only you are late for an hour or two, your life couldn't be saved,' the Kyai said.

A flame covering the spear point or keris, is quite 'common' reported. But it could only happen in a very serious situation, when the bearer very intended and determined to use the pusaka as a weapons. One cannot turn it 'on' and 'off' as if it is a flashlight. Belief it or not belief it, one should be very careful with such a weapons, or any weapons.

Keris in general has many functions and aspects, which developed through times. IMHO, one function don't necessarily erased anothers. It only add another dimension. But if we discuss a single specific blade, we may discuss what dimension this specific blade belongs to. Was it intended by the maker as a weapon, as a social-class attribute, as a talismanic device, as just a daily clothing accessories or other functions ? One specific blade could serve more than one function, and very limited ones were intended by the maker to serve all aspects/functions.

Alan,
Sorry for 'repeating' your post. I 99% agree with you. I save the 1% for future use :)

David,
Yes, I owe you a new keyboard. I do owe many keyboards and apologize to the forumities who incidently 'broke their keyboard' by one or other reasons, after reading my previous post :)

Best regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

Pak boedhi, do me a favour:- please don`t hit me with that 1%.

1% , well directed and pushed hard , can kill.

Your remarks on the dimensions, or facets, of a keris are very fitting. This is something that is often overlooked.

keris usage
 

Hi all
for what it is worth, I was just re-reading Mr Maisey's post on gripping the keris and it struck me as I was trying it out how similar it is to the way I recall being taught to handle a fencing foil (admittedly it is 25 years since I did any fencing but a firm smack with a foil on your calf from the old Hungarian master has a way of imprinting things). The fencing grip (unless you are using a modern custom moulded handpiece) is all thumb and index finger with the other fingers providing only the lightest of control on the hilt, angling the wrist provided a lot of the change in attack. Of course the fencing foil (and epee) can only score with the tip much as a keris could only 'score' with the point. A foil has the advantage of length over a keris but a keris (even in its heavily worn state) has the advantage of bulk over a foil.
cheers
DrD

Several people have asked me for a photo of the grip I describe.

Here you have two.

Arsenic toxicity
 

Hi all
I'm really grateful for this forum, what a fantastic resource!
I just wanted to go back to the issue of arsenic residues remaining on blades, and their potential toxicity. I'm currently working on a project about keris in public collections for my masters degree in conservation, and as part of this I recently tested nine blades in an Australian museum's collection for the presence of arsenic. Having discussed the project with Alan Maisey previously, and understanding that the staining process (when done properly) should not result in any free arsenic remaining on the blade's surface, I did not really expect much from these tests, however all tested positive, with two having particularly strong results, up to 0.35mg/L (the Merck test I used requires the sample to be dissolved/suspended in water). While it would be difficult for any staff handling these objects to inhale, ingest, or absorb a signifcant amount of the residue, it is certainly present in sufficient amounts to cause adverse health effects. However, the World Heath Organisation states in its arsenic safety guide (http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/...tionNumber:2.6) "In man, the smallest recorded fatal dose is in the range of 70-180 mg, but recovery has been reported after much larger doses" - this suggests that for it to work effectively as a poison on a keris blade, there would have to be much more residue on the surface than would result from staining with warangan.
Raffles' wrote in his History of Java "it is usual to immerse the blade in lime juice and a solution of arsenic, which, by eating away and corroding the iron, may probably render the wound more angry and inflamed, and consequently more difficult to cure, but it has never been considered that death is the consequence." (vol. 1 p. 352) ... I reckon it would depend on where the wound is!

Yes, i reckon it would depend on where the wound is! :D
Your information on arsenic residue is very interesting. You say that 2 of the 9 blades you tested had levels as high as 0.35 mg/L. What was the lowest level tested? What was your average result? Considering that much larger doses taken internally are necessary to cause death, why do you feel that these levels might cause adverse heath effects? Using the Merck test it seems that you draw the arsenic off into the suspension water. How long does this process take? How would arsenic in any significant amount be absorbed or ingested by the body through normal handling of a blade? Would the arsenic residue on the blade be naturally inclined to be airborne? Barring being cut by or licking the blade how would arsenic residue on a keris actually get into the human system in significant amounts to actually cause health problems?
Thanks in advance for addressing these many questions from a scientific layman. :)

Good to see you back, Georgia.

I`m possibly not all that surprised by the results you report.

All keris that I have seen in public collections in Australia have been in a very neglected condition. There is nearly always some sort of dust, or I guess you could say "residue" , on the surface of these blades. They are dry, sad, and tending towards rust. My guess is that as the surface of the metal corrodes, it frees the arsenic, along with the ferric material, so if you take a sample from one of these neglected blades, you are going to get a positive result for arsenic.

On the other hand, in a properly stained and maintained blade, there is no residue on the blade surface. The blade is clean and smooth.

I've said it before, and since I'm not a chemist, I could well be wrong, but it is my firm belief that when we stain a blade, the arsenic combines with the ferric material and causes it to change colour. The amount of arsenic used in staining a blade is tiny, frankly, I've never been able to detect any loss of arsenic in the lime juice suspension, after a staining job is complete.

I reckon that if you allowed a gun barrel to tend towards corrosion, then sampled the dust on the gun barrel, you would probably test positive for the chemicals used in blueing of the gun barrel.

There`s another factor too that perhaps should be considered:- the natural occurence of arsenic in the material used in the blade. I remember nearly 20 years ago I queried Prof Jerzy Piaskowski`s test results that showed arsenic in his analyses, and he assured me that it was a natural component of the material, not from the staining process.

I do not know nor understand the test process you used, but if the sample involved the physical removal of surface material, it seems to me that perhaps this natural presence of arsenic could also be considered.

Please do not misunderstand what I driving at here:- I'm not knocking your work:you've carried out a legitimate test, and you have proven the presence of arsenic. However, I feel that there are some other factors that should be considered, and to my mind, foremost amongst these factors is the condition of the surface of the blade. I would suggest that in a properly maintained blade you would not be able to test for arsenic, simply because you would not be able to locate nor extract a residue.

If this is so, then perhaps your finding could be that in a badly maintained blade that displays a surface residue, that residue may be presumed to contain arsenic, and thus should be handled in an appropriate manner.

As to poisoning by arsenic, well, in early times I believe arsenic was used in very small doses as a medication. I am not suggesting that it was effective, but apparently people at one time thought it was effective for something.

Not long ago timber products were treated with arsenic to prevent rot. Workers who handled these timber products, or who applied the arsenic compounds used , had to be tested regularly for build up of arsenic in their bodies. It was absobed through the skin. I know of cases where people worked with these timber products for virtually their entire working lives, and never accumulated sufficient arsenic in their system to warrant having them removed from that particular type of work.

Along the same line. The method used to stain very high quality keris blades , and that should be used to stain royal blades, involves the person doing the staining to actually have bare hand contact for extended periods with the arsenic suspension. The old Javanese gentlemen who do this work do not get tested for build up of arsenic, and eventually they die. Usually at a fairly advanced age from something like emphysema or a traffic accident.

Still, the Land of Oz is not Jawa, and we do tend to be rather sensitive on workplace safety. I would suggest that all curators and conservators should be paid a special loading when required to handle keris and similar weapons. Apart from the possible metaphysical danger, we now know that there is arsenic present in the workplace, and it would be unreasonable to expect anybody to take any level of risk with this hazardous chemical, unless appropriately compensated.

I'm looking forward to seeing your completed paper.

How far along are you?

Hi David

Thanks for your interest! Seven of the blades had much lower levels, ie less than 0.1mg/L (which was the smallest amount discernable on the test's reference colour scale, although all of the tests showed some colour change, ie greater than 0.0mg/L). Because the colour scale is logarithmic (0, 0.1, 0.5, 1.0 etc) it's hard to be precise about the exact quantity of arsenic in each solution when the colour of the test strip doesn't exactly correspond to a colour on the chart; it's safer to just say 'under 0.1mg/L'.

The process for preparing the sample was to collect a solid sample from the surface of the blade (under the microscope), usually from within the crevice between the gonjo and the blade or in the deeper parts of the ricikan, and allow this to soak in water for 30 mins-1 hr. In a couple of cases the surface was too uniform and so a small area would be swabbed with water and the swab allowed to soak. I also tested swabbing and solubilising with ethanol, in the cases where old coatings of oil may have interefered with the solubility of the sample in water. With such a small sample size, I'm not sure how valuable an average is, but I'd say it's about 0.1 mg/L.

While it's true that a much larger dose is required to be instantly fatal, there's a lot of grey area in between being well and being dead! Arsenic can affect health in the short term (nausea, diarrhea, skin problems) and long term (problems with skin, gastrointestinal tract, nervous system, mucous membranes, lungs, and liver). Long term exposure has been linked to cancer.
As I mentioned, it would have to be pretty unlikely for a person handling one of the two keris with the strong positive results to absorb enough arsenic to be a concern, however I think it's better that staff be aware of the potential hazard and perhaps just be that little bit more careful when handling them.
On one of the blades there was a powdery residue on the surface which was easily dislodged. If, for example, a conservator was to brush clean this (thinking it was dust) and breathed it in, it might be enough to make them crook. Most staff would be wearing gloves anyway when handling metal objects, and I don't think there'd be much licking going on, so this is the only way I can think of where it might be a concern.

I don't know if this is going to change your mind about the way you handle your own keris, and I don't know that it necessarily should; I do think though that staff working in public museums should be aware of potential risks, no matter how slight, when handling objects they perhaps have no prior knowledge of.

I hope this has answered all your questions!

Hi Alan - we must have been writing the last post simultaneously, so I just missed yours! Thanks for your reply, I think that's a very valid point you have made about the possibility of corroding iron releasing arsenic from the patination layer; the blade I tested which had the strongest result certainly had a powdery whitish-grey residue on the surface and the blade itself was not in the best condition. However, the other blade with a strong positive was in a much better condition and did not have much in the way of surface residues, in fact the only reason I chose it from the 40-odd keris in the collection was because it of one of the darkest and most obviously stained. The sample I picked from its surface was an oily sort of gunk from along the gonjo.
Regarding the possibility of arsenic being present in the iron, that is definitely a possibility (I think arsenic is one of the main trace elements found in iron), but I don't know if it would be there in large enough amounts to be picked up by the Merck test. In any case, the samples collected were of the residues and not the metal itself, so I don't think this is very likely.
One other possible cause is the 19th century museum practice of slathering collection items with arsenic to kill pests - although this was usually confined to natural history/organic collections, perhaps someone decided it would be worth it to protect the handles and sheaths?
My project's coming along steadily, I'll send it to you in the next few weeks to have a look. Got five more weeks til it's due! Thanks for your help.
G

Yeah, I reckon that muck that gets in around the gonjo would certainly have arsenic in it. Even in one of my nice clean shiny keris with a perfectly patinated surface I reckon you could dig something out from between the gonjo and the blade proper that would test for arsenic.

What I reckon you could not do would be to remove sufficient of anything from the surface of a properly maintained blade to get a positive on arsenic.

I could probably dig up Jerzy's results if they interest you. Any sort of luck I could probably put my hand right on them. That would allow you to assess the relevance or otherwise of occurrence of natural arsenic in the material.

Again---looking forward to seeing it.

Wrote the above before reading the "simultaneous" post.

Reading how and where you took you samples, there is no doubt in my mind that you would find an arsenic positive.

However, from the standpoint of a museum professional, I really do believe that this presence of arsenic should be identified as a potential hazard---mind you, I do not believe for one second that it is, but anything that you can use to jack up your pitifully inadequate rates of pay should be treasured. Don`t fail to tell your union what you found. Make sure that when a workplace agreement is on the table that any handling of keris or other SE Asian edged weapons draws a hazchem subsidy---or something similar.
Professionals deserve decent pay for what they do, and if there is a hazard involved---be it ever so slight---it should be used appropriately.

That'd be great if you could, I'd be very interested.

Thanks for you response and clarification of your methods Georgia. I agree with both you and Alan that museum workers should certainly be made aware of these findings. Considering the condition of these blades prudence would be wise even if any danger is unlikely. I am glad these clarification have been made because your original statement that "it (arsenic) is certainly present in sufficient amounts to cause adverse health effects" seemed unnecessarily alarmist to this group of collectors who in all probability maintain their collections in much better condition than the museum seems to do. You would find no surface residue on the keris in my collection (and certainly no white powdery substance) and though there may be something hiding in the crevaces of the gonjo it seems highly unlikely that i am at risk of ingesting any of the substance or even absorbing it through the skin. I hope you understand that i also am not discounting your research which is indeed very interesting and valuable, but i am trying to put this information into perspective for the audience you are addressing on this forum. Of course, if there are any paranoid collectors out there who want to now get rid of their collection cheap i would be happy to help them out. ;) I look foward to hearing more about your findings when your project is completed. :)

Sai
 

Hi All,
Stone's description of warding with a sheath or keris is exactly the same technique that is used with Okinawan sai. The sai, which resemble European poingards save that they have no edge or point, are used in pairs. The large quillons serve to catch sword blades and also to revolve the weapon so that it can be held either blade or pommel out. If held pommel out, the blade acts as a guard for the forearm (the blade should be long enough to extend about 1" past the elbow) and the pommel can be used to strike a blow. Stone, on pg 422 item #17, lists a mace (that is exactly like an Okinawan sai) as Chinese. If this attribution is correct, then perhaps the Indonesian method that Stone reported has its roots in some form of Chinese martial arts.
On a completely different note: Is there any possibility that amok has its roots in the Hindu weapon classification of mukta/amukta?
Sincerely,
RobT

salam to all,

I'm not an expert on types of keris, etc but i hv been activley involved in martial arts for the past ten years especially silats from peninsular malaysia and a few from javanese style .. Had to give my thoughts of view regarding the main topic or as i might say 'questions' raised by Mr. Bram because the replies had been "off-topic".. My answers will be only based on what my guru's taught me and none of my own opinion so, don't ask me for historical facts..

Mr. Bram's brought up the fact that keris is not used for fighting or combat in Jawa but silats in Malaysia, it is the main weapon taught for fighting. He then asked for explaination on when did the keris in Jawa ceased to be used in normal fighting? >> here goes>> my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves..

Second question, about the hilt.. both ways (Malay and Javanese) of attaching the hilt to the keris is different, one is horizontal and the other paralel with the blade. It is true that the Malay way of holding the hilt (like holding a gun) will hold the blade in a position that would readily be able to slip between ribs but bare in mind that you cannot hold the hilt the same way for Javanese kerises!! There is a different way of holding the Javanese keris which will also make the blade parallel and readily able to slip between ribs.. i have two pictures for example and as you can see, both blades are positioned the same, just the hand gripping way is different..

I could see that someone has already showed a picture of gripping the Javanese keris but seems quiet wrong to me as it not firm and your grip has to be straight along with your arm, just like punching, or you can't even thrust a banana tree with that style of gripping. AND you would be easily disarmed just by being kicked on the wrist..

Some replies also questioned that the Javanese slip their keris at the back, while malays slip it on their front. It is not the question of which one is practically logic for fast drawing their weapon or sticking the keris at the front is easier to pull out in a combat, but there is a greater reason to that!
Most of the pencak in Javanese Style prefer very low stance pattern (kuda-kuda). While you are performing bunga or langkah in a very low manner, it is impossible to slip a keris into your belt in front of your body (especially long ones!!) that is why they slip it at the back.. Unlike silat styles from Malaysia which uses higher stance in their silat form, it is still comfortable to slip the keris infront..

Not to mention, holding the keris Javanese style is more efficient to make a thrust from a lower position than holding a malay keris the malay way. And vice versa, it is more devastating to hold a malay keris the malay way if using a higher stance than using a Javanese keris. That is why it is important to choose the right type of keris with the right type of "lok" when fighting your opponent.

And there is a post that mentioned holding a keris looks familiar as holding a "sai" or "tcabang" in Indonesia or "tekpi" in malaysia.. believe me, they are not the same, as i also master the movement of "sai's"..

Thanks.

Thanks for your post Zartane. Can't say that i can find enough credence in your idea (related from your teacher) that the Javanese stopped using the keris as a weapon due to Tameng Sari's loss to Hang Tuah. First of all, while i am sure that these were truly historical characters, i believe that their "history" is more legend than truth. Sort of like saying George Washington gave up using the hatchet after his embarassing encounter with the cherry tree. ;) Secondly, if this line of thinking was the case it would seem odd to me that the Javanese would continue to so greatly venerate the weapon that failed their greatest hero.
I see very little difference with the photo example you present as to how to hold a Javanese keris with the one Alan Maisey presented. You show a side view, Alan shows top and bottom. Yes, Alan shows a bend in the wrist which you probably would not have during use, but what he was trying to show us was the grip itself which is essentially the same as yours.I suspect that Alan may have been photographing his own hand here which would make it a little difficult to keep the wrist in proper position. Either way, his grip seems no less firm than your example.

Continuing along these lines of grip ; I would be very interested in seeing the way in which the keris scabbard would be gripped for use as a left hand parrying device .

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy?? :confused: :)

Left-hander...
 

Here's another variation of holding a huge Sumatran keris. :D
Note: Left-hander... right hand holding the camera. ;)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...5992.sized.jpg

Personal preferred holding technique... :confused:

Using the sheath...
 

In some Peninsular Malay silat form, the scabbard (sarung) serves a few purpose. To parry as well as a secondary assault tool. It is held with the scabbard facing the opponent, 2 fingers and the thumb holding the shaft (batang) of the scabbard, while the other 2 fingers support the cross-piece (sampir) from behind. In a single block, the sampir tips can be used to target the softer part of the opponent or used as a distraction while the blade in the other hand, move into a striking position. :confused:

Yes, Kai Wee, that would be an affirmative. That doesn't mean that i am suggesting that this famous duel didn't take place. It may have, it may not have. It may have happened, but not quite as it is told today. Such is the stuff of legends. :) My point is that it would be difficult to base any academic conclusion on it.

Maybe ....... but he did throw a silver dollar across the Potomac river ; I swear !! ;) :D

You are absolutely correct Rick....in fact, i happen to own that very same silver dollar. It was passed down to me from my great-great-great-great-great-great gandpappy Jebediah Bulldungy, who just happened to be fishing the far bank at that time and lost his left eye when the coin hit him smack in the face! :eek:
I was going to put it up on eBay, but if any of my fellow forumite would like a good deal..... ;) :rolleyes:

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris. :)

No David, I did not take that photo myself, my wife took it, and the bend in the wrist is to allow her get the pic.

I did these pics three times. I tried to get one of my sons who has Asian type hands, to hold the keris while I took the photo, but although it looked OK when I took the pics, when I got home and processed it, he had not got it quite right so I held the keris while my wife took the pics.

The previously published photos of this grip had one of my sons holding it, and it looks a lot more convincing.

Donn Draeger spent his life researching the way in which South East Asian weapons were actually used. If anybody was expert on this, then I think that perhaps Donn F. Draeger was that man. His remarks on the way in which a keris was used, when it was still an everyday weapon are interesting. He maintained that because the keris in Jawa had not been used as a common weapon for many, many years, and that since no documentation of methods of use existed, it simply was not possible for somebody living at the present time to truly know how the keris was held and used in Jawa when every man carried one as a weapon.

I cannot comment on the practicality or otherwise of the grip that I have shown, for use in silat applications.

I am not a silat practitioner, I have seen demonstrations, and I find it an admirable, athletic, and beautiful form of martial art which seems to require a very high degree of flexibility and extremely fast reflexes.

What I can comment on is the person who taught me this way to hold a keris.

This gentleman was a neighbour in Solo almost 40 years ago. He had worked as a "waste disposal contractor" during the period from the time the Japanese occupied Jawa until into at least the 1950's. His teachers were the sons and grandsons of the overseers and enforcers who were used by the Dutch. He was not a pencak silat teacher, he was a man who used elements of silat, kun tao, and other arts as his professional stock in trade. His objective was to avoid fights. He did not get paid for fighting. He did get paid for getting rid of the waste he been paid to get rid of. His preferred tool of trade was not a keris, but he had used a keris in his work. The way in which he taught me to hold a keris was the way in which he had been taught to hold a keris.

Perhaps the grip that I have shown photos of would be totally useless for pencak silat situations. I do not know, and have no foundation upon which to offer a comment. But this grip was used by one man at least who earnt his living with it, and by ensuring that others did not.

Although I cannot vouch personally for the efectiveness or otherwise of this grip, I can say that it is a very firm grip, because it effectively locks the blade into three pressure points in the hand:- the pinch between forefinger and thumb, and the first joint of the forefinger locked down onto the top of the gonjo.

I would suggest that if this grip is not applicable to use in pencak silat, then the obvious solution is not to use it.

But as to whether it was used in a practical situation or not, well, theoretically bumble bees cannot fly.

Here is a short clip about Pendekar Steven Benitez, the only real western Pendekar to my knowlage http://www.goldenlightstudios.com/gl...ari3=video_tfm

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack . :confused:

Have no idea why, when I click on the link I get video and sound :confused:

You'll need Adobe or Macromedia Flash Player...
http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/downl...ShockwaveFlash ;)