Dutch klewang vs. US Naval Cutlass?
 

Hello. I am a beginner in Ethnographic weaponry, and even more of a novice in European types. It occurred to me that the Dutch klewang used against Aceh and in Indonesia was very similar to the cutlass used by the US Navy, and probably by other Western states. I am wondering - were they basically the same or were there subtle but important differences between the two? Thanks. :)

Hi there,

My understanding is that the Dutch Hembrug pattern came first, and was later taken on by Milsco in the US with very subtle variations. There has been a fair bit of discussion about these in the past, search the forum for the two makers.

I've been keeping my eye out for a Hembrug klewang for a while, I really like the design.

Emanuel

Hi,
The Dutch had two types.
the left one is klewang no1 , made by A.coppel Solingen
the right one, klewang no2 is made at the Hembrug.

regards from Holland

another solingen no. 1.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...s/klewang2.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...s/klewang1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...kew/dutch2.jpg
other side has a small (proofing?) crowned R mark figure. mine was supposedly captured from a german schnellboot (e-boat)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ermaneboat.jpg
in the channel during ww2, and was apparently confiscated from a dutch supply by the deutsche kriegsmarine. the scabbard may not be the original type shown in the earlier post, possibly they got a bit mixed and matched in the armoury. i had a relative by marriage who was a royal navy officer and captained a british mtb boat at the time, so this one has some personal meaning. he lost a leg in combat with a schnellboot. the e-boat capt, apparently lost an arm, and after the war they managed to meet each other over a few beers and discussed the battle where they injured each other & parted friends...

see also the concurrent forum post here. i've also posted pics of the cold steel copy of the 'USN 1917 cutlass' which was the milsco one. i've seen an online copy of the original plans for the klewang somewhere, and milsco copied it almost exactly. i think a search here on 'klewang' may bring it up. there is also a rather nice book in dutch and/or english on the whole subject of the dutch klewang.

we have discussed these ones in great depth earlier. the history is fascinating and worldwide. the same model was apparently used by the dutch, germans, japanese and americans at approx. the same time. (the japanese shortened a bunch of captured ones, butchered the shell guard & issued them as an nco's sidearm.)

Search on "Hembrug" and start reading. I'm pretty sure most of your questions will be answered.
Enjoy!

Thanks guys!
I'm not normally as interested in European arms, but the Dutch klewang is quite interesting to me. I will be doing some reading tonight! :)

Excellent observations Kukulz, and it is fascinating to see the many instances where certain ethnographic weapons have been absorbed into military regulation forms, in this case the U.S. M1917 naval cutlass....another classic example is the kukri's used by the famed Gurkha troops in the British army.

Actualy, I think the influence can be regarded in long term (of centuries) and has been mutual. Sea-going tribes from Indonesia & the Malay peninsula have made use of short sword-like weapons and short spears (much like boarding pikes). Introduction to the marine edge weapons of the western sailors led its way towards the creation of a weapon such as the Parang Nabur, for example.
Another example, of the opposite way, can be seen in the former (1960's-1980's) British issue Golok machete for tropical area.

The American 1917 has the blade similar to these but the 1917 had a solid basket. What Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel lists his as a 1917, is actually the Milsco version made later in the century. I was suprised by one recently that had a copper basket and shiny blade. According to another respondant, those plated American 1917 versions were truly done up that way for parade and such.

Cheers

Hotspur; I think Mike McWatters pages still have similar information

here's a ref. on the 1917 cutlass. LINKY

while officially declared obsolete in 1949, it apparently was still in use for ceremonial purposes at certain navy schools for long after. i understand some of those may have been plated and otherwise gussied up for display value. the US Navy Ceremonial Guard in Washington, DC (Anacostia Annex) still uses the 1860/61 model of modern mfg.

Chuck!!

I like these.
http://www.navyandmarine.org/index.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/index.html
http://www.cwsmma.org/TheCutlassCaveditsNiche.htm

The copper and nickle plated job that surfaced and a ringer of a Neumann 18th century piece that I couldn't pass up and have adopted.

Cheers

Hotspur; the repro at the bottom already comes with rust and a dark blade :p

nice one, hotspur.

for those whole like the shorter flavours of swords, the police in various nations carried hangers, like this one

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...hanger_DCE.jpg

which is a victorian british constabulary model. note the distinctive push button scabbard lock, which is fully functional on this one, they're normally found missing or broken - used on swords issued for use at Her Majesty's Prisons. sadly scabbard did not survive. chrome plated for parade, shagreen grip cover needs restoration. victorian british police hangers are normally found unsharpened (like this one) as the preferred use was to break bones rather than sever them. 24" blade for reference.

Mine's purtier...
:)


Very rare Ames M 1860 Officer's Cutlass.
Used until the beginning of WWII

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...SNM1860CL9.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...NM1860CL25.jpg