Flintlock Pair, Need help Identifying
 

Hello all, I've been lurking around the forum for a couple days now looking for some information on a pair of flintlock pistols I am researching. I thought I would join and share what I have here. It is my hope that there may be a few of you that might know some information about these.

I honestly do not have much information about these so I will mostly let the pictures speak for themselves. I will answer any questions to the best of my ability and please request additional pictures if you would like to see more detail.

Also I am aware that the topic of value is not to be discussed on the forum though it is my understanding that I may request that I be privately messaged on that topic?

Thank you for looking :)

Although they look European at a first glance, I think they're Turkish made for export. One European characteristic is the separate ram rod. Also, the lock appears to be of better quality than most Eastern European/Balkan/Turkish guns I've seen.

The punch marks are cryptic, and I have not heard of the name stamped under the breech.

The chasing or chisel work also is a strong indication of that region.

Silver wire inlay, ditto.

These appear to be of pretty good quality, and not the late slipshod work too often seen.

I would like to see some close ups of the lock from both sides.

I confirm French pistols for Turkish market.
For me the punch marks are silver proofs.
Would be interesting to have the translation of the Arabic part...
And also a photo of the locks from outside!
If it's a true pair the value is increased...
Kubur

Could be also French pistols for Algerian market, anyway Ottoman
The inscription will say... The frizen is not from the Balkans.
Pure pistols for export, very good quality indeed

The punch marks are absolutely not French silver marks. This is something I have dealt with for a long time.

The marks do not resemble those of any European country I know of.

I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral.
But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

Thank you for your input.

I forgot to mention in my original post that I had the Arabic translated. I was told it reads the Arabic equivalent of "George Abraham" (or Ibrahim as its said in Arabic) with unconnected characters. Both pistols are marked with this name in the same location (underside of the grip).

I also forgot to note that nearly every piece of sliver on both pistols is stamped the same as the picture I posted. ( a star, and what I also thought might be the Arabic numeral '80' )

I'm unable to upload addition pictures at this time but I will post some more detailed photographs tomorrow.

If you look closely in the first picture you will notice both pistols have been defaced on the outside of the lock plate. I will get a close-up of this tomorrow.

There is also quite a bit of engraving on top of the barrel I will try to photograph. It is a crescent moon surrounded by stars.

The quality seems to be there for Marsailles, but silver was marked with an export stamp. As I recall, it was a goat's head.

Ottoman Silver Marks
Kürkman, Garo
Istanbul: Mathusalem Publications, 1996
English - 293 pages
ISBN: 9789758129007
"A book by Garo Kürkman brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans
in stylized script, into light.For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was
obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the states gold mint. These
marks are catalogued in the book titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete
list of the Tugra marks of the sultans and other silver marks."

I don't have any references with Turkish marks. Rarely see any of that work here.

Here is a close-up of the locks.

Hi Chertbolt.
Looks like the locks are invisible?? LOL. Hope you can Post close-ups of the locks.
I agree with others here. These pistols are an excellent example of European made - for export to the Ottoman market. For all the reasons mentioned above.
The stocks are copied from the French design, and the locks look very French, first to second quarter of the 19th Century. As mentioned, the lock internals are the typical higher quality found on Europen locks versus the more common Balkan made copies. And the non-serrated frizzen and full ramrods are also both give aways.
Again, a textbook example of Europen made pistols decorated for the Ottoman market. A great pair.
Rick.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention they have the special ability to become completely transparent. :D ...or maybe I just forgot to re-size the pictures and they didn't attach. I fixed it.


Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full?

Thank you all again for contributing to this thread. I had suspected they were European made for the Ottoman market with the prior research I had done before landing here. It is good to hear confirming opinions.

I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east.

The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either.
For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them!
Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks....

Edited to correct my English lock bit!
On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full?

Oh, ok. They are the "short" ramrods. That is one of the two variations of the "false ramrod".
Also, note the European style trigger vs the flat curl trigger usually encountered on the Balkan made pieces.

Thanks for the pics of the locks, also decorated in Ottoman style for local tastes.

Rick

Hi Richard.
Yes, they could have been final assembled in the Balkans from European parts. Just the locks and barrels imported. But when I look at the European style triggers, along with everything else, I still believe these pistols were finished and assembled in Europe for export.
The engraving on the trigger guards look typical generic Ottoman/Balkan. And could have easily been done in Europe, or locally since the guards appear to be iron forgings.
And I see what you mean by the locks. They have both English and French styling cues. Hmmm.
Rick.

Now that is interesting. Thank you Andreas!!
Rick.

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning! :o

Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

I am also very interested in knowing more about Jean Brosars and where you have seen other examples baring his name. Any information would be of great help. My mother is an experienced genealogical researcher and is working on this name as well as the Arabic inscription of 'George Abraham' to try and find more information.

She did find a Syrian man by the name of George Abraham that lived 20 minutes away from the earliest known owner of these pistols, whom would be my uncles father. Though we have not found any solid connections to say for certain that this is the same George Abraham.

Will update as we find more information.

For now here are some more pictures.

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here and here , also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas

Thank you Andreas. Excellent sources and directly relevant to the items under discussion. Chertbolt now has an answer to his question as to where these were made and by whom. As he correctly noted in his original post, any discussion of the value of his pistols needs to be via email or PM.

Ian.

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

Good point Pukka.

Hi Pukka.
Well, it's interesting what a few more photos can do to the decision making process. :o LOL. I must say that after viewing these additional photos, that I comepletely agree with your assessment. It does in fact appear that the lock and barrel were shipped from France/Europe for final assembly somewhere in the Balkans/Ottoman Empire. As you mention, the chisel work, engraving, quality of the iron mounts, and even the inletting is not up to European standards. But is typical of what you would see on these pistols if locally assembled. Great observations on your part.
However, yes, this pair of pistols are a really nice example of the locally made Kubur pistols utilizing a European lock and barrel.
It's great that Andreas was able to identify the barrels. Thiss has been a fun Thread.
Rick.

Hi Rick,

What threw me a bit, is that I only knew of the newer St Etienne proofs, which are AR crowned.....not AM. Thanks to Andreas for filling me in on this point!
Lovely to get pistols with such high quality locks. Very nice indeed.

Andreas, thank you for those links! It was fun to see other examples with the Brosar name and even the same proof mark!

I did find this online book that mentions Auguste Merley, Though I do not read French so I'm not exactly sure what it says about him. :o

I also discovered the Saint Etienne proof house is still in operation.
Saint Etienne Website

Thank you again to all that have contributed to this thread!

Hi Pukka.
What lead me astray is the European style triggers. You very rarly see this trigger on these pistols. It's usually the simple, flat trigger with the curl at the bottom. Of course, the triggers themselves could have been imported.
But the additional photos make it obvious these were assembled locally.
Nice pair of pistols, and a fun Thread.
Rick.