A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798
 

Here is a little something that I just picked up, with some help from our man on the ground in Thailand. It is a Burmese story dha, with a stag horn handle and pommel, equisitely carved. The scabbard is chased silver, with eight panels on each side depicting different figures which I think are either characters in the story shown on the blade, or are nat (spirits). There are eight on each side, all different, but some similar which might be different depictions of the same person, and there is a deer on each side in the last panel. The scabbard has an engraved dedication: "This sword belongs to Tha Toe Thi Yi General Min Hla Ye Khaung 1160." The Burmese date corresponds to 1798 in the Julian calender. The blade needs some cleaning, but other than that (and a sloppy repair with epoxy that I am slowly removing), it is in perfect condition). Enjoy.

Dha treasure
 

Speechless, pictures tells it all. This is the second old dha for real i have seen in this style, quality and age, the real thing. Both have seven panels of highest quality deep chased silver depicting figures and characters on blade. On the other one i saw (and missed as it was for sale) the scabbard was not dedicated but signed by a famous silver smiths from that time. The hilt has in the middle a plain ivory with nice old patina, not carved, and smaller chased silver panels with figures like in the scabbard at both ends. The pommel is ball shaped silver chased all over in floral motif. Congratulation. By the way, help from the man in Thailand to find a similar piece is more than welcome. :rolleyes:

W :) W!!!

Outstanding, Mark! That is absolutely beautiful. Congratulations! :)

Have you been able to turn up anything about that general?

What a beautifull Sword. I know next to nothing about Burmese edged weapons...but when I see this, It makes me want to learn :) .

Outstanding...thanks for posting.

Regards

Karni

Gorgeous!
 

It gets better looking every time I see it. I have yet to see it's equal in a story dha. What I'm sure Mark is too humble to tell you is that a professor in Chiang Mai had specifically requested this sword from the dealer to use in an upcoming book he will publish on the swords of the North. He at least thought it was historically significant.

This is the fourth time I've seen a similiar face on the pommel of a asian sword. Two were on the pommel caps of japanese style thai swords of high ranking individuals and another on a dha. Anybody have any ideas where it comes from?

Cylord email sent.

Thanks for the complements
 

Thanks, all. It is very exciting to have such a nice, provenanced sword. Andrew, I haven't tried looking for info on the general, but I certainly intend to. It's hard to know where to start, but perhaps an internet search is the first step.

As for where it came from, aside from somewhere in Burma apparently, I need to check some sources to see who was in charge at that time. It was a very volotile period in Burmese history, with domestic control passing between Burmah and Mon kings, the capital shifting all over the place, and periodic invasions by the Thai and Arrakanese. It is a very distincitve style, and since I have not seen any bona fide "court" swords from Burma, I am going to venture a guess that it is such a sword, which means it is either from Ava, or Prome ... or Thaton ... or Pegu ... or Tuongoo ... <sigh>

The work on the scabbard looks almost Lao, actually. They work in this deeply chased style with illustrative panels. Perhaps a Lao craftsman in Burma, since Burma controlled that part of the area for some time in this era. I little perusal of my limited sources might shed some light.

Absolutely Gorgeeeeez!
 

I think this is the finest dha I have seen; what a splendid acquisition!

Mark
To repeat what I posted on another site about this one, what a great dha. The blade inlay looks well done and the blade much better made than some of the story dha. But when you add in the well worked and unusual furniture this is a true rare find. Congratulations

Congrats Mark ...
 

Excellent example, and provenanced as well. Look forward to seeing more pics of the blade.

Hope you can nail down the likely area of Burma from which it came. The year predates substantial British involvement in the area, but you may find something helpful in the chronicles of early travelers to Burma. I have read of Portuguese mercenaries in Burma around this time.

Let's hear what you find.

Ian.

Yes, there was a Portuguese adventurer who actually captured and set himself up as lord of a port in the river delta. I hadn't thought to check Portuguese sources -- that is a good idea. Nothing useful cam up on the internet (in English at any rate).

Wonderful carving and silver work (envy, envy, grumble, grumble...).

A beautiful sword! Thank you for sharing and best of luck on your research. I hope it turns out some interesting info.

What a wonderful dha! Btw, what is the head on the pommel supposed to represent?

Also, there are figures on the scabbard. Do those mean anything?

The face is a demon of some sort -- the boar-like tusks are usually supposed to indicate a demon in Asian art. Demons are not necessarity "demonic" as we understand it. Perhaps a better work would be "ogre." They turn up in a very of the Burmese myths and legends.

http://members.cox.net/frijthof/nat-...cab_detail.jpg

The figures, as you can see from this one close-up, are very detailed and each is different. There are six humans, male and female, two demons/orgres, one male one female, and two stags. There are no clear "attributes," such as you might see in depections of Hindu gods and heroes to tell you if they are supposed to someone particular. But I suspect that they represent either specific characters in a story, or possibly spirits (called nat in Burmese), of which there are over a hundred. The investigation continues ...

Thanks Mark. I'm really enjoying this dha. If you have time, please do post more pictures/details of this dha... its simply amazing!

Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608.
Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

Yes, I believe Filipe Nicote is the one I am remembering.

A shame that other than being briefly published, that this sword and swords of the type did not develop further in discussion.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm

The subject of the "Story Dah", as far as I am aware, has not been ventured in to in detail. I note Mark had added a little more insight and detailed images here;
http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm
It is my hope that Mark might chime in and offer some further first hand insight to this sword.

Personally, I think this sword dates post 1858, supported by the many and various Burmese silver collections held in Museums around the world.
It was the British Raj period that bolstered this fine age old craft, the period being 1875-1945, although, I understand that the 1860's saw the initial rise in export silver.

A point that I do not think Mark photographed, is what I think is a face from which the upper suspension loop protrudes from the mouth of.
If I am correct in my suspicions, based on others of the type known to me, this is the same face seen on the pommel, a face that I suspect is Hanuman... even the goodies had teeth and tusks...

I do not mean to be disparaging in my visual assessment of this sword, and for learning and discussion purposes, and that it is only my personal belief based on the examples I know, that the hilt on the example pictured is a later replacement... exactly how later I do not know, but I suspect post WWII. The level of carving is in my honest opinion, not consistent with known ivory carving found on these sword types or comparable carved ivories from Burma during this period. the method and quality of the craft which binds the antler is also questionable, I get an almost Laos or Thai flavour from it.

In the description Mark provided in his further research of the sword, he notes the panel on which 1798 is found on an added panel whilst the blade dates to 1919, a quandary indeed. On one example known to me, it has the English Royal coat of arms in repousse for this panel. Possibly this sword had it too, removed to fit this addition?

Of the blade type, it is a quality blade and considered by myself and others as a mid 19th century type through to the 1920/30's. I find from this point on wards that the blades decrease in size and quality as does the dress, finally to a point from the 1950's on wards where these swords became just a shadow of their predecessors with poor quality blades of roughly the same form and very lazy and poor quality repousse in pot metal. One such 1950's pair of swords known to me were purchased during an officers stay in the Kachin regions of Burma...whether this became a point of sale area or a manufacture area of the later types, I am unsure.

There are many online reference points for old Burmese silver, various combinations of word searches will present a wealth of information.

All for now.

Gavin

Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years:)
and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed.
I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .

Gavin:

Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai.

I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know.

I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here.

Ian.

Gavin:

I'm having trouble locating the one I mentioned. But I did find the attached picture online (Pinterest) with a caption saying it was dated 1931. The scabbard has a similar segmented silver treatment, with various Buddhist icons and symbols, much like Mark's dha. I view this style of repoussed silver work as Lao. Would you agree? Also, the blade on this one looks fairly good and the silver work is good but not great. Do you think the blade might predate the inscription by a few decades?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

As I rely on others translating the Burmese script for me, I could not without proper review of the text and the blade in the hand, assess the age of the blade...but I must say, the silver application to the blade is better than most for 1930s, that much is certain to my eye.

The silver work of the scabbard dress is Burmese, the Laos notation I previously made, as you know, was only for the hilt binding of Marks sword. An interesting point made by several researchers is that the Shan smiths involved with this craft, of which I am sure many were in these guilds, their silver work was flatter and more floral which might account for some swords that I have seen with these stunning high relief repousse silver scabbards and low relief hilts?
A point of note too, of all these sword types that I have seen and handled, they ALL have a large lotus bud pommel, of varying designs and that that were not of the lotus bud shape specifically, were decorated in lotus bud and flower repousse designs.

With regards to the quality of silver work in this sword that you present, especially seen on the pommel, it shows a general great decline in the art by 1930...I wish I could see more detail of the panels...they look real nice.
An interesting anomaly that I have noticed with several of these sword now, is that well in to the 30's and beyond by many decades, the scabbard repousse panels have remained far superior to the work on the hilts and pommels...an aspect I can't explain with any accuracy. A surplus of old silver fittings? A conglomeration of guilds? Dies for scabbard panels remained undamaged? A change of direction in the craft? But again, there are other examples that date from 1948-75 which bear the state seal of Burma which are exquisite quality throughout? Perhaps it all come down to budget for each sword as these sword types are generally considered to be state and diplomatic gifts and each person who was to receive the gift may have a set amount of funds aside by the state for the swords making?

Gavin

Hi Gavin:

I want to press you a little further on the repoussed silver work on the scabbards of these swords. I understand that these scabbards were likely produced in Burma, either by Burmese craftsmen or imported metal smiths.

I think you would agree that it is unusual to find this segmented style of silver scabbard on Burmese dha, with the exception of these "story dha" that seem to have arisen around the mid-19th C. as commemorative items and perhaps for foreign consumption.

The arrangement of the scabbard elements into contiguous cells or segments is very similar to what has been found on Lao hilts and scabbards that pre-date this period and that appear to have evolved in the mid- to late-18th C. (from an earlier Lan Xang style). Some of the Lao silver work of that period was particularly fine, and they seem to have brought the repoussed metal technique to a fine art in the second half of the 18th C. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Burmese repoussed metalware was found to a great degree or of a high quality in the late 18th C.--those techniques and skills being learned and adopted from the Lao around that time.

I would like to have your thoughts on this as I have several repoussed silver scabbards on Lao and Burmese swords that appear quite similar.

Regards,

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Segmented scabbards are very common on many types of Burmese Dah in plain and repousse styling and far less common on Laos and Thai swords which for 90+% are plain silver sheet with embellished ends...the other 10% or less that are of segmented scabbards are rarely seen and usually not repousse.

Hilts are a different story, for centuries, as you note, this aspect has been present on Thai and Laos swords...why did it not follow through to the scabbard in these countries in these times? On Royal swords it did, but not to my knowledge segmented types of scabbards but certainly repousse.
All others were suspended by baldrics could be one answer as why they weren't repousse scabbard as Royal swords had sword bearers. These Burmese swords are hung by suspension loops in a very European manner, not baldric or sash worn and can display such work.

If I understand correctly the swords you refer to, are mostly royal swords and none to my knowledge are interlocked in the manner of these "story" dah except the 1970s zodiac examples which are reputed to be based on swords held by the royal house...swords I've never seen.

Who genetically worked in these Burmese guilds I cannot say, but as a Burmese production under the British Raj and later Independent Burmese government, we are talking 150+ years here of craft here I see the people as Burmese and English. During the period of the manufacture of these prestigious swords and other fine export silver, there were clear lines/borders defined between the colonial powers of Britain and France...

Gavin

Hi Gavin:

Hmmm. Perhaps we are talking about slightly different things.

In any case, I am posting here two swords that I think show the segmented Lao scabbards. The first also has a segmented hilt.

The first one I posted here about eight months ago when I picked it up online. Having cleaned the hilt and scabbard, the silver work has come up rather well to show some nice repousse work and an unadorned segment on the scabbard where the rope baldric would have been attached. In fact, there are still very faint impressions of the rope that once wound around it. Judging from the condition of the silver work, its style, and quality (good but not great) I would think it is from the 19th C. Incidentally, the blade that came with these fittings was a late 20th C. replacement and a piece of junk!

The second is a late 20th C. sword made by a Lao craftsman whose name I knew once but now cannot find in my records. There are at least three or four of these swords that he has made, maybe more. I purchased this one in the 1990s. The silver covered scabbard has a series of segments in which a different animal is depicted. The ivory hilt on this one is not segmented, but I like the "naked" ivory tusk and silver work. (Incidentally, Scott Rodell has a fine Cochin saber with a similar hilt that appears on his web site. I had the pleasure of handling this sword a few years ago at Timonium and it was beautifully balanced.)

I have another two or three examples similar to the first one, so I don't think that these segmented scabbards are necessarily "rare" on Lao swords, however I do believe they are a distinct style that the Lao developed.

When it comes to Burmese scabbards, I think we are probably talking about different things. To get a handle on your impressions, I went to your web site and looked through all your old pics. I found four Burmese dha with what I would call segmented scabbard decorations--these were all high end, presentation type swords. I excluded Shan and Yunnan decorated dha that might give the appearance of segmented patterns along the scabbard, but which have cut out areas where the wood shows through--clearly a different style from the Lao segmented scabbards.

The numbers of Thai and Lao daab on your site were too numerous to count, but a quick inspection showed few, if any, with the segmented patterns that I show below. A substantial fraction had no scabbard.

It seems that the segmented pattern of which I am talking is not common, on either Burmese or Thai/Lao swords. I know there are others here who collect dha/daab and perhaps they could share some of their examples.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

The 1970's craftsman name that eludes you is Thit Thong Ratanakorn.
I personally feel that the sword you suspect is 19th century silver dress is more likely of the period of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn sword.

Of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn swords, I must have seen 30+ of the type now...I've even seen them in sets of three with sizes relating to the Katana, Waka and Tanto...all the same style with ivory hilts.

The segmented scabbard types are certainly uncommon as a whole, but also rather common when they all start getting documented. You did well to pick through my unorganised sold stock link...you'll see another 3 fine examples in my latest swap forum post, a fellow collector that I've been put in touch with also has two similar, here is another rare short example from these pages; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...06&postcount=1
There is the Vittorio Emanuele the 2nd gem encrusted Burmese dah with segmented scabbard, non repousse but gem encrusted at the joins, a sword akin to those pictured in the hands of the body guards of Shan Princes in this article here; http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/research-d...na-and-the-tai
Other Burmese types have passed through my hands and numerous others seen online over the years..
Comparatively, I know of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn which are often flogged off as 19th century are auctions and dealers...so I guess, when you include this Laos revival of the 70's, it is more a 50/50 spread and not all that uncommon on either side of the border.
There is a non repousse silver three segment scabbard in a well know Thai Silverware book.

I personally feel that these Laos swords were inspired by the Burmese repousse dah of the Raj and later independent Burma.

Gavin

Hi Gavin:

Well, I guess we have two different theories about this style.

I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above.

But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style.

My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.]

In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C.

I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough.

As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here.

Let's see if anything shows up.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

A point worth noting about the oxidisation from my experience is that degrees of colour and patina is based on impurities in the silvers used.
I've found it in both 18th and 20th century silver, some with native hallmarks.
I am sure it is not limited to, but the higher quality silvers have patinated to blues and purples, whilst others from both ends of the age window have been blackish, brown copperish and even hints of gold in places where some form of flux has been used.
With regards to the hallmarks, I'd guess it is like any other known form of noting that tax has been paid on the silver sheets used. Again, I am sure it is not limited to, but those of an appearance you wouldn't consider silver until polished, I'd expect them at face value to be from more provincial areas where regulations and taxes were less exacting.

Not quite; I do not believe The Lao/Thai swords are an imitation of at all. If anything, and only as a matter of thought, not fact, that the Burmese "Story" Dah developed in its own right from inspiration of the repousse silver hilts swords of Thai/Lao swords. I am sceptical about the sectional repousse scabbards of Laos being any older that the 1950-70s. Has anyone an image of these reputed royal Laos swords from which Thit Thong Ratanakorn copied his swords from?

Gavin

Pictures from Oriental Arms site (Part 1)
 

Hi Gavin:

Thanks again for your thoughts and experience with these swords. Very helpful.

In pursuing my research further, I looked at another online source of some size, namely Artzi Yarom's archives on his Oriental Arms web site. Artzi presently lists some 600 swords he has sold in his Indo-China/China/Tibet grouping. Within his swords I found three (one Burmese, two Thai/Lao) that are of the segmented scabbard type we are describing here and which were not simply plain silver panels on the scabbard (another two Thai/Lao examples had the plain silver panels).

Attached I have copied the pictures from Artzi's site. I did not count the total number of dha/daab on his site, but a fair estimate might be that one in four or one in five of the items (i.e., 120-150) shown were dha/daab; of these about two-thirds had scabbards. An estimate of the sample size from which these segmented scabbard swords was drawn is thus roughly a hundred in total. That gives us an overall prevalence for segmented scabbards of around 3% based on Artzi's collected experience over the last however many years he has been maintaining his site (about 15-20 years I think). I would call that rate of 3% "uncommon" but not "rare."

When looking at the examples he has on record, I found the two Thai/Lao swords with segmented scabbards appeared to have some age. One has no lotus bud pommel, and the other has a larger, more flamboyant type similar to what is seen on some of the Burmese presentation dha that you referenced. The third example, a Burmese "Story Dha," has a lotus pommel also, which is not particularly large.

The final example from Artzi's site is one of the Thai/Lao swords with an undecorated segmented scabbard. Here the equal lengths of panels is apparent, but there is no engraving or repoussed work on the silver. This might reflect an earlier form of the style, but I have no evidence to support that view.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

----------------Attachments-----------------

Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard.

Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a large lotus bud pommel.

Burmese "story dha" with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a lotus pommel.

.

Pictures from Oriental Arms' site (part 2)
 

Here is the Thai/Lao example with a segmented scabbard but without decoration on the silver panels. The style of this one reminds me of the Thai/Lao daab I posted above with the repoussed panels.

---------------Attachment----------------

Thai/Lao daab with segmented silver scabbard with undecorated panels.

.

Pandora
 

I love Pandora's box Ian, everything goes right out the window in such a mish mash region :-)

About the swords you presented.

#1, I am honestly, not entirely convinced that is an original marriage of blade and scabbard, something to discuss as we go if the sword surfaces and better images and information is available.

#2, I see this as Shan Burma work, exactly what museums have noted with shallow repousse work.

#3, I see this as Shan Burma silver craft as well.

#4, I cannot from the images so one way or the other but I see that this could also be Shan Burma

A question that comes to mind, and it comes to mind because of the generic term used, What constitutes a "Story" Dah?
Must it jut be the blade telling the story or much the scabbard also tell a story in repousse? Must the story, if a blade only is to be considered, must it tell of the tale/s of Jataka or simply be decoration of birds, elephants and chinthe?
Using this link for example, there are Burmese swords, do both classify as "Story" Dah, one fullly decorated blade, one partial? Note the more common sectional scabbard there too.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...23&postcount=5

I've added a random sectional scabbard image below on a sword I'd call Northern Thai in to Laos.

Many of my sold swords, I can say with conviction, my opinions have changed over time as information comes to hand...say s990 for example. Once I thought this to be Thai for many reasons, now I consider it Shan Burma based on the Vittorio Emanuele sword and those swords in the 1903 Delhi Durbar images. Some others, I'd add more specific data given the chance.

Lets look to Mark's site,there is a good amount of Dah and Daab to choose from with sectional scabbard and decorated blades. I have only chosen sword length inventory.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0011.htm
This is the exact type of demise in the craft that I previously mentioned and the larger pairs I know were purchased in 1954 in Kachin Burma.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0051.htm
Another of the Burma plain sectional type. "Story" blade.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0065.htm
Another Burma, I've quite a few of these in my sold listing, with many different decorations to the blades, hence my question above, what makes a story Dha?

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0062.htm
An interesting sword, I'd call the blade Laos through to Tonkin border regions but the dress Shan. Its in the same basket I placed sold stock s990.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0064.htm
Shan sectional silver dress...these sword types have the thinest finest silver sheet, hardly comparable to the type initially presented here which are thick, heavy and robust sections. Which leads me to a point of note, about from Iains sectional example and the scabbard of the one I question from Artzi's site, I personally would say that most others mentioned of plain sectional type found on the Thai/Lao sword types would crush and crumple under hand if not supported by the timber core.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0070.htm
As per inventory 0064 above. You can see how easily the silver breaks and creases.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0069.htm
I note Mark's question mark, and I can see the confusion...Laos Shan gets my vote, but even then its rocky....I think it could be a marriage.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm
The sword in the initial thread post, one we should get back to in the discussion :-)

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0075.htm
Its a real nice Burman Dah, but coming back to my question, what makes a "story" dah a Story Dah...this is only decoration...

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0008.htm
Another Burman blade decorated with animals...does it quality...

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0013.htm
Another nice Shan Dah with fill silver sectional scabbard.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0015.htm
No much to say other than there is sections and its Burma???

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0036.htm
Low repousse sectional Burmese Dah of nice form.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0045.htm
As a note, this is the typical Thai Laos silver scabbard form, single sheet with seperate end...I provide a sectional example in the image below, a rare aspect.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0050.htm
Another showing the typical scabbard design I note about, nice to see the hilt apart, showing the robust sections of the hilt.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0052.htm
Another nice all sectional silver Shan Dah.

Gavin

Gavin:

Yes, things do indeed get complicated in this area. The Shan are a very interesting group, being ethnically Tai, and are included in the same ethnographic group as the Lao (who are also Tai/Dai). The broad group of Tai in southern Yunnan, northern Thailand, Laos and eastern Burma (Shan States) comprise the major concentration of these peoples in SE Asia. The Tai and Chinese are cognate races, quite distinct from the Burmans and Kachins who are Tibeto-Burman in origin.

That we see so much intermingling of styles in northern Thailand, Laos, southern Yunnan and the neighboring Shan States is not surprising. I would say that the Shan culture, in general, is more Sinocized than the Lao, and this follows through somewhat in the styles we see on their weapons and scabbards.

While there is some overlap between the scabbards of the Shan and Lao, I see some important differences too. The Shan style uses far more metal (usually silver) wire in its execution, with rosettes and scalloped designs being quite prominent. The Lao style features more repoussed metal work on its scabbards. These different techniques are important, I think, in distinguishing the two styles. I would be the first to agree that occasional examples of "mixed" styles do exist, but given the close geographical proximity of the two groups in northern Thailand/Laos, and their common ethnographic links, that is probably not surprising.

When I went through your old pictures and Artzi's site I was careful to pick out the obvious Shan examples and did not include them.

As to what constitutes a "story dha," I don't think we need to be overly complicated. For me, the "story dha" is related solely to the blade (although that may be complemented by an accompanying scabbard that has related graphics). The blade should contain full-length metal inlaid decorations, using a "koftgari" technique, that comprise graphical elements and accompanying Burmese text relating an historical, mythical, or spiritual "story." Both sides of the blade should be treated in this manner.

This definition would exclude, for example, those sword blades with purely vegetal or animal representations, even though these may be done in the same manner as the "story dhas." Also excluded would be those blades with less than full length inscriptions, of which there are examples with a brief piece of Burmese text and a few vegetal designs.

Returning to the subject of this thread, and its relationship to what we have been discussing. I would definitely classify the sword as a "story dha." The hilt is unusual, with a face on the pommel. When we look at other "story dha," however, we see a lotus bud pommel, in various forms, some of which resemble the large flamboyant forms seen on Shan dha, and others the smaller lotus bud style on northern Thai/Lao swords.

Let me make a suggestion. The Burmese "story dha" is actually a production of the Shan craftsmen in eastern Burma, drawing on indigenous Shan and Tai/Lao traditional silver work, with the lotus bud pommel and segmented scabbard being features of those areas, along with repoussed silver work on the scabbards.

There is a precedent for the production of prestigious swords by the Shan for other ethnic groups in Burma. The last example you cite from Mark's site is a silver dha in the Shan style but which Mark labeled as Kachin. That designation was made because there are several published photographs of prominent Kachin leaders bearing just this type of sword in processions and other Kachin ceremonies (see attachment). Does that make it Kachin or is it always Shan?

As you say, this area is a Pandora's box, with so much intermingling that it is hard to know what comes from where.

Ian.

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Kachin formal political meeting with traditional parading with dha. The Jingphaw Times, January 19, 1951.

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A really interesting thread most illuminating. I have a story dha but it was just stuck in a shed for years by a previous owner and suffered quite a bit of corrosion. The scabbard and hilt are of wood covered with silvered brass. It appears to be one of those made when the skills had declined.
Miguel

Hi Miguel:

Yes, that sword is one of the more recently made ones, although I have seen worse examples.

When I was starting to collect (many years ago) I was given a Burmese "story dha" that was probably made around 1950. I still have it somewhere. It is covered in yellow brass that was once cleaned by a previous owner with Brasso, a commercial polish that is renowned for leaving a heavy, white powdery residue. Fortunately, the sword itself was of very low quality so the residue did not detract from it. :rolleyes:

I have one of the poor quality Lao swords with segmented scabbard also. That came as an add in with another sword that I wanted. It has a terrible blade made from sheet metal, and the hilt and scabbard are also made from a silvery base metal.

One day I will give these to someone I really don't like very much! In the meanwhile they sit in storage. Perhaps I will get them out and post them here to show what not to acquire. ;)

Ian.

Two crappy dha/daab
 

Miguel:

Here are the two poor examples I mentioned.

Ian.

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ponderous
 

From what understand there is some truth to this statement in some respects, the truth of the matter though, is that it is Burmese silverware, made in Burma.

To better contextualise the Burmese craft of the period that these repousse Burmese swords were made, and including reference to known Shan import silverware with influences from as far away as Thailand in Burmese work, I refer to Joseph Cohen's dialogue on Tilley's publication.

http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/s...-silversmiths/
http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/s...iption-plates/
http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/s...ptions-plates/

I think this is a very fine representation of the Shan style silverwork;
http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/c...urmese-beaker/


The BIG spanner to throw in to the mix here is that Yunnan sword smiths have also been making this sword type for a very long time and well in to the 20th century including the making of other countries knives too, from what direction did the sword in the newspaper come from...a study for another day.

Regarding what constitutes a story Dah, I agree totally...it then just runs from presentation grade to market grade.

Gavin:

I guess it comes down to whether one wishes to speak geographically or ethnographically. I think we would both agree that these "story dha" are not Kachin or Karen in origin, and probably not Burman; however, each of these ethnic groups is "Burmese" as defined by the boundaries of Myanmar and former Burma under British rule. [I won't get into the broken promises of homelands for minority populations in this country that would have given the Shan, Kachin, and Karen their independence 60 years ago.]

My preference is to define these dha in terms of the ethnic group(s) from which they come, regardless of geography. In this case, I think we can agree that "story dha" are most likely a product of the greater group of Tai, and more specifically the southern Tai* (which includes Shan, Thai, Lao, and other less common groups). This larger group has sub-styles in swords, in part depending on the degree of Chinese influence, and bridges the national geographic boundaries of Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, northern Vietnam and southern China.

However, by removing the geographic constraints that apply to national borders and the use of associated terms (Burmese, Thai, Lao, Chinese, etc.), I think we can get a better picture of cultural items such as dha/daab/dao and arrive at a clearer understanding of the diffusion of their styles among the various ethnic groups in the region. In this way, I think the picture becomes less of a melting pot and starts to make more sense.

I do think our traditional collecting world has been rather lazy in continuing much of the earlier colonial approach for attributing cultural artifacts by geographic identity rather than ethnographic group. "Burmese" is an archaic term, just as "Siamese" or "Vietnamese." At best, these terms are a starting point in the discussion of the origin of cultural items such as dha/daab/dao in the region.

Ian.

* I use the term southern Tai to distinguish them from their northern brethren. The northern Tai (Shan) arrived in their present region a few centuries before their southern cousins, and at one time occupied and controlled what is now northern Burma and Assam (the latter deriving its name from "Shan"), extending into Tibet. The southern group of Tai was driven south by Kublai Khan in the 13th C. and came to occupy much of what is now southern Burma, Thailand, Laos, and southern Yunnan, China.

Thanks Ian you have confirmed my thoughts. I have always thought that the repoussé work was not that good and this thread has more than confirmed it, thanks also for showing your poor quality swords.
Would you put the age of these swords including mine to the 1950s approx. Thanks again Miguel

Just to add a further graphic regarding the use of Shan dha by the Kachin. The attached picture comes from the book by Bertil Lintner, The Kachin: Lords of Burma's Northern Frontier. People and Cultures of Southeast Asia. Teak House Publishers. 1997. p. 37.

Ian.

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Shan dha used by Kachin for ceremonial purposes

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