Hi friend Jim,
I am glad too to meet you again on our favourite battlefield....

First, we must admit that all authors dont have the same seriousness. Some are truly pioneers and researchers such as Stone and Buttin ....who document their definition and are very careful in the use of words. Others, while compiling an outstanding job, have a more commercial approach and uses terms that are insufficiently documented and taking the force of law for collectors .. and die hard!!.
For example, the term Flissa, Flyssa, ...., straight sword of the Kabyle of Algeria, is the name given by the Foreign Legion in the 1850's during the conquest of Kabylia. It comes from the name of a tribe of Petite Kabylie: the Ifflissen Ibn Bahr. This weapon is typically Kabyle. However, we often find it described as Berber from Morocco (Kabyle are berber, but from Algeria). If you ask a Kabyle what is a Flyssa, it ignores it. He will say Sekkim or Iskin (knife in Arabic) or Imus (Tamazight).

Zanzibar: Arab dhows terminus of the monsoon before becoming the dependence of Oman (late XVII-late XIX), it was an important trade harbour for exchanges between African and Arab worlds. In addition the proximity of many mines in East Africa allowed it to become a major center of iron working. However, the Arabian Peninsula had no resources in iron. By cons, purchase orders of weapons were Arabs and had to match their taste. Therefore it would be more accurate to say Arab Saïf producted in Zanzibar.

Falling quillions
Among its nine swords, the Prophet had 3 with falling quillons of which the first one Al-Mhatur which was bequeathed by his father. So they existed at the VII. (see Sabres de Mahomet in Topkapi collection)

Also listed on the Bas-relief "Combat of David and Goliath" of Gagik (Armenia 920), the falling quillons equiped without doubt the swords from the Hispano-Moorish XI. They are found on Grenada Jinete produced from the thirteenth (ref: Chronica in Alfonso X -1221 to 1284) and copied by Christians from the fifteenth (ref: Sword of the last Moorish king Boabdil).

Hand guard - D Guard

Italian origin:
For some, quillons handle and hand guard is of Italian origin, or at least, was known to the Arab XV-XVIth by the trade routes from Genoa and Venice (Robert Elgood - "Arms & Armour of Arabia "1994).
Weapons of reference would be:
Shiavone-the name of the Italian basket sword at the end of XV-XVII (sword of the slave Guard of Doge of Venice).
or Fauchon (French) or Falchion (English): short sword with wide blade convex edge of the Middle Age.

North African origin:
see the attached picture of a Spanish sword of the fifteenth (part of search - Collection of Charles Buttin). Inspired by North African, it is a sword of transition (or espada of patillas ) with short handle with one hand, hand guard, hilt down and two rings for the passage of the index to consolidate the shot.
It seems that the models had the Hispano-Moorish hand guard before the fifteenth (ie, before the Italian track ...) at a time when the guards of the European were still in cross.

Sinhalese origin:
Another track explores the possibility of transmission to the Arabs by the Sinhalese. It seems that there were very early (before Islam) trade relations between the Arabian Peninsula and the island of Ceylon.
The handle of the Kastane of Ceylon has all the elements of the Moroccan and Arabic Guard (cf. Charles Buttin and Alain Jacob).
The Kastane have quillons in which a hand guard (side of the edge) and two inner glued to the blade.

I am not really sure that you will understand my poor english. I just hope...

LOUIS-PIERRE

Hello LP,

I can see it much clearer now. and indeed, I remember some persian words mixed to describe "half" using "nim or num" But as I said, to an arab with no connection to the term, he will find it foreign and indeed it is.

Thanks alot for the precious info!

Regards,

Abdullatif

Hello Abdullatif,

I understand much better that the word NIMCHA sounds foreign for an Arab.
This word has traveled..... But how and when?
One might think that the Arabs have conveyed it in their conquests to the Magheb. But i think it was a bit early....the word seems to have been used later in Morocco.
Mystery!!!

All the best
Louis-Pierre

Interest Type
 

I found this interesting "Nimcha" (?) In a French book.
could this decoration be from the 18th century.
Nimcha or Saif?
Dear Louis - Pierre you can say more about that?
Best Kurt

Hi Kurt,

It may be a presentation Nimcha even if it misses the full set of quillions (of which the guard). The profile of the handle is the same that the one of a Nimcha.
This type of work on silver was and is again nowadays done by the jew community of the casbash. Prudently, i would say late XIX°, early XX°. Why not before?? But, the blade would tell more for its datation.

Best for you.
Louis-Pierre

Interest Type
 

Thanks for the assessment.
I know the guard's a bad supplement.
But the silver work is like the decoration of "Türken Beute" Weapons(17 early 18 century ).Even the shape of the blade could be early ?
It looks like niello work?
Is that possible?
Best
Kurt

Hi Kurt,

difficult to say something on the blade as details are missing and the image does not help much. The shape could be from 17 to 19°.

Of course, Moroccan Jews also knew the work of niello. But here they seem to have used a more traditional technique in Morocco. Either a silver plate is engraved with patterns, either 2 silver plates are welded together. The top plate is first cut with patterns and then plated (soldered) on a silver plate as a support. This creates a relief that highlighted by shading the visible parts of the support plate. This work is often seen on Koumiya.

See U.
Louis-Pierre

decoration
 

Thank you Louis -Pierre ,
Your explanations were very helpful .
Best
Kurt

Nimcha ? Saif ?
 

Hi ,
Have found those pictures in my sold archives .
Think it is a Saif from the 18 century.
Does anyone know more?
Regards
Kurt

sorry for my bad English !

very interesting! This style pommel is usually seen on Middle Eastern Arab swords, but usually with a Turkish/Persian style guard; here we see it with the Coastal African "nimcha" guard; an interesting combination.

Is that a picture of a double edged broadsword on the pommel of a saber? :eek:

broadsword
 

Hi Tom ,
Yes, it looks like a broadsword.
But I think it should represent the sword of the prophet.
Best
Kurt

The sharply angled hilt on this silver mounted sabre reminds me very much of certain Palestinian or Sinai Bedouin sabres, most of which I have seen are with crudely fashioned wood hilts and seem almost 'shashka' like. The heavy sabre trade blade seems like its been around a while, and interesting to see these most attractive mounts incorporating the Moroccan sa'if hilt. As such a hybrid it would be hard to accurately place in these more modern mounts, but definitely has some history, particularly the blade.
Interestingly the blockish and angled pommel cap, while of course aligned somewhat with the more refined design on most Persian shamshirs, has distinct affinity to certain early (c.1790s) British cavalry sabres. These in turn derived from a number of European 'hussar' sabres in use for considerable time before.

By propensity of style this sabre might be considered a Maghrebi anomaly, however it seems more likely from Arabian regions congruent to or with perhaps intertribal contact with these Bedouin groups in the areas mentioned.

Regarding the intriguing broadsword on the pommel cap, the Saudi Arabian emblem with Dhul'fiqar (I hope I spelled that correctly) does represent the Sword of the Prophet with bifurcated point as typically seen. However the Broadsword (double edged) seen here does show a distinct ridge or fuller in the blade center, bisecting the blade. As I have been led to understand, the translation of Dhul' fiqar is literally 'possessor of spines' (believed to be of course fullering) and perhaps here simply represents the 'cloven' or in two concept. In any case the mounts are of the type seen on the Sacred Swords in Istanbul, and very well may be intended to represent the Sword of the Prophet.

Nein, nein, nein, Kurt, not one of the Prophet saber for a lot of reasons

see there http://le-carrefour-de-lislam.com/At...eliquiae_2.htm

Yes Jim, it looks like a telescoping of an arabian Middle Eastern saïf and a Moroccan Nimcha guard. A blade of broad saber.
Really very curious.

Louis-Pierre

Nice sword. The sword inscription is indeed Dhul'fiqaar. The inscription even says the frequent line "la fata ela Ali, wa la saif ela dhul'fiqaar"

Nimcha.
 

Salaams, I cannot add much to the already full and excellent discussion ...except...Nim means half in Baluchi and they take that from the Persian as noted in a previous detailed thread. It is not an Arabic word but again that is already discussed... so ...

This is a Zanzibari Nimcha. Not the cloisonned Algerian version nor the classic Magreb style. As Jim was saying in this and other related Nimcha threads these swords started life in Italian or Venetian roots. There are other variants including the Saudi item and cheaper hilted Yemeni variants but the one which makes ones eyes sparkle is the Omani or Zanzibari version ... When people say Omani Nimcha what they actually mean is Zanzibari (as already noted Oman owned it for a considerable period and it even became for a time the Omani capital !)

Apart from the obvious, there are two clues to origin;

1. The Hilt of Ivory.
2. The decorative gold Hilt pattern style.

Zanzibari traders favoured the Ivory hilt on their Nimchas...Being a trading hub for all things African, Zanzibar was well placed for the Ivory trade.

The decorative gold style is Indo/ Persian "Miri Bota" leaf pattern. Not likely to be done on a Nimcha other than a Zanzibari Nimcha. More than likely craftsmen from India worked in Zanzibar and the decoration was either done there or in India from which much trade exchanged with the Zanzibaris.

I have to add that the Nimcha puzzle is or has been one of the most difficult to crack open... and thanks to the Forum it is now somewhat clearer. :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This does not seem correct to me.
Certainly the blade on these is the same as we've seen on some Mooroccan genui (basically a seeminly European style multigrooved single edged dagger blade), however, the I/H shaped handles much more closely resemble those of jambiya (per se). This seems to argue for middle eastern, rather than north African.

Also, I think it is important that in one sense or another, and certainly to Europeans, all of these "nimcha" users were/are Arabs; These are swords of a mercantile and military elite, which has often been Arab even in non-Arab afrasian countries, and for instance, Zanzibar, Oman, and Yemen are all historically Arab places. It is important to remember that while we modernly mistake Saudi Arabia for Arabia, Saudi Arabia is a 20th century invention, and not a nation-state, but a petty kingdom (these are technical terms; a nation-state is a polity composed of a [n entire] nation, while a petty state is one composed of only a part of one. The other major division in this regard being multi-national states, or empires.)

Tom,

I would actually argue that the sboula hilt is much closer to a baselard than to a jambiya. As far as the origin of the weapon, the picture linked below of a soldier with a Moroccan musket seems to support a Maghrebi origin, and the Zanzibar attribution seems to be a mistake that has been perpetuated with little supporting evidence.

Regards,
Teodor

http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment...id=21170&stc=1

Thank you so much Teodor for the corroboration. My point in bringing up these other weapons is that the influence of these European weapons from trade networks, primarily North Italian into Tunis and other North African points brought many of these into the cultural sphere. It has been suggested to me in discussion of the important reference by C.Buttin, that the cinquedea actually influenced the hilt of the koummya, and we know that the 'janwi' comes with Genoan influence. Buttin was also support for my contention in the Zanzibar misidentification.

All the best,
Jim

Please do argue that it's more like a baselard, because I don't see how? Certainly it's a tempting comparison, with the (as I noted) basically European dagger blade these have, but
the soldered-on (rather than soldered then
assembled onto the substrate) metal that often nearly fully wraps these grips is not usual on
Swiss weapons AFAIK, whereas it is rather
common on jambiy and shabrias (a similar type of work is common on the central ferule of some koumiyas, but almost always with additional filigree or other applied decoration not common to my experience of the short swords in question). Furthermore, the overall shape of the grip is seen on jambiya per se (htypically the pommel is less broad), and also on other African swords and daggers (lately I've seen a couple where the tips of the upper guard/pommel were wrapped in spiralled wire on this forum; do you remember them? They had straight DE blades)
All things are possible, but these hilts do not resemble any other Mooroccan work I'm familiar with, while they do resemble Middle Eastern Arab work.
The photo is interesting. Thanks.

Silhanese.
 

Salaams LOUIS-PIERRE,

Your reference to Sinhalese Kastane is interesting since it is generally accepted that the "influence" came the other way from Italy and Venice via the Red sea and possibly Zanzibar to Sri Lanka... and that the arabs settled in many coastal regions in Sri Lanka making a plausible sword link up to what is now an Iconic emblem . It does however look very Oriental and I wonder if the influence could have been from the Chinese... or is this design a Sinhalese thoroughbred.... or a crossbreed? :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Just received this one. Zanzibari......or Arabian made in Zanzibar?
Stu

Nimcha.
 

Salaams...Looks like a Magrebi Nimcha. Ibrahiim.

Nice one Stu, congrats. Looks Zanzibari imo.

Hadramaut.
 

Salaams Jim, The Hadramaut is a place I need to go and see... regret however that it is probably 50 years too late. As a compensation I have just read a dusty old mid sixtys copy of Hammond Innes "Harvest of Journeys" where in the first part he is winging around that area which was in part a British Protectorate and in one small town he describes it as totally Javanese!! (at that point the bells are ringing !! ) The (once but in decline) rich Yemeni landlords of Java..In the Hadramaut ! I am still stunned by the revelation. Regards Ibrahiim.

Salam Ibrahim,

I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open.
The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms.

I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe.

There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha.

1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin)
2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi
3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi
3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade
image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection.

With my kind regards
Louis-Pierre

here are the images

LPCA

NOT Magreb. The Magreb (Moroccan) has the dropping quillons and no D "guard"
Stu

What about this type?

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3864

Thanks Louis-Pierre, I think that clarifies things, and I do appreciate your clear comparisons.
If the idea of the hilt shape is sourced from other cultures or not, I guess we in the 21st Centuiry will never know for sure. Many long hours and thousands of words mean nothing without CONCLUSIVE proof, and I suspect that hundreds of years on, we will never be absolutely sure. Sufficient to say, we can only go on information we currently have to hand.
Regards Stu