... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Oh, i'm the acid type; if they eat me, they'll get an indigestion :eek: :rolleyes:

Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=montjuic

They came from a U.S. dealer who had many more, all deacessioned from that castle.


The first one is the plainest of this group of three; it is in my collection.
It is a small tiller gun (German: Viertelhaken), ca. 1430-40, of round section throughout, with short, early-style reinforced, octagonally accentuated breech (still loaded!), small touch hole (ca. 2 mm) on top, in the center of a hollowed trough, the round socket retaining a heavily wormed portion of its original wooden tiller stock; the crudely wrought barrel tapering towards the short, swamped, round and bell-mouthed muzzle section; no sighting.
The socket inscribed in ink now turned yellowish:
CASTiLLO de BERNAT (the rest illegible)
BARCELONA SPAIN (again the rest illegible)
1331 . A.D.
Very few other barrels are known to feature a notably reinforced breech section; they all date of the beginning and the first half of the 15th c.
Preserved in optimum, virtually untouched condition.
Overall length 72.6 cm, barrel length 56.2 cm, bore ca. 21 mm, somewhat irregularly.

The second is highly notable for its socket folding for transport: another Viertelhaken, ca. 1440-50, of round section throughout, with seven reinforcing rings, the short rounded breech pierced with an irregular small touch hole on top amidst a round trough, the round socket inscribed similar to the first, equiped with a threaded double-scroll wingnut and folding down with the wingnut loosened (the wooden tiller stock missing), and short, round, swamped muzzle section.
Barrel length 45.5 cm, bore 12 mm.

The third of similar small dimensions, of round section throughout, the long, reinforced, round breech with small touch hole on top, accentuated by three raised bands, the foremost two crudely roped, the long, round, integrally wrought iron tiller bent upwards and terminating in a swamped mushroom-shaped knob. On the ground of the two roped bands, I would tend to date this 'late 15th c.', but then again, all the remaining criteria are so close to the other two barrels that these roped friezes may be a later addition.
In all, this tiller gun should be attributed to the mid-15th c as well.
Exact measurements not recorded.


m

Which disgracefully closed its museulogical space :( . If this were not published with the due expansion, i was informed by its documentalist, whith whom i was exchanging correspondence at the time.

The other two Montjuic guns.

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell. :shrug:
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

I assume you got my saying that, although this is currently called a trom (bombard), it is a reloading chamber and not an actual cannon :o .

Sorry, 'Nando,

I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense.
In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech+loading


Best,
Michl

An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above).
German private collection.
Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg.

I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example :o .
The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth :o :confused:
I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery.

.

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando, ;)


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl

Next to my haquebut barrel dated 1481 (see above), here is another important and dated piece, the breech struck with the date 1507. It is for a long, heavy-weight wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), starting octagonal at the breech and changing to a round section at about one fourth of its length, emphasized by an incised double line. If it were not dated, 'ca. 1500 or beginning of the 16th c.' would have been my classification based on the above-mentioned criteria. The touch hole is on the right-hand side, and a long dovetail behind the igniting hole denotes that once a pan had been attached that is missing today. That pan, as well as the two barrel loops, most probably were added in its working life, ca. 1530, when that barrel obviously was re-used with a full stock.
Above the rear of the breech, a maker's mark, showing the earliest use of initials I have ever noted on any barrel, IV in a square shield, has been deeply struck three times in the Gothic tradition, symbolizing the stylistic trefoil element. There is another dovetail on the rear top of the barrel, for a rear sight (missing), and also at the rear there is the earliest type of a barrel tang (Schwanzschraube), in all probability also added in ca. 1530. We may assume that originally in 1507, there was a long rear socket for a wooden tiller, and the piercing of the rectangular hook served for mounting the piece on a tripod. The muzzle is bell-mouthed.
Overall length 145.5 cm, bore 40 mm!
It was sold Hermann Historica, Munich, exactly 500 years after it was made, 2 May 2007.

This crudely made piece is really hard to date, c. 1500, I woud say.
It retained its original tiller stock, showing an early shape of primitive buttstock nailed to the socket of the stout, round barrel, which featured a raised fire shield and hollowed touch hole of 5 mm diameter on top, a rectangular hook and a slightly swamped muzzle.
An old inventory no. was painted in red on the underside of the buttstock.
It was only 88 cm long, weighing 8 kg.
It was sold Bonhams London, 1 Dec 2009.

m

More of that willfully shaped haquebut.

This heavy three-staged wrought-iron haquebut wall gun barrel (Doppelhaken), ca. 1530-40, was wrought octagonally at both the breech and the elongated muzzle section bearing a blade foresight, with a long, round mid-section in between. The beginning of the swamped muzzle section was highlighted by a roped frieze. The breech featured the most unusual rear sight that I have ever noticed (now damaged). The three relatively finely made barrel loops and the dovetailed rectangular pan, its cover missing, all indicate a rather late date of make. The long, rectangular hook is no longer pierced. No doubt, this barrel was made for a full stock.
Overal length 121.4 cm, bore 2.8 cm.
Sold Bonhams London, 1 April 2004.

m

Haquebuts With Dummy Barrels!
 

On 15 Dec 2004, Sotheby's London sold part of the armory of Schloss Fronsberg, Styria, comprising a number of Austrian military matchlock muskets, late Thirty Years War period, ca. 1645, the stocks totally unvarnished (the finest of them now being in my collection), plus a large number of broken stocks of wheellock and matchlock muskets, basically only the buttstocks present, with the barrels all missing.
Three of the lots, 157, 159 and 160, contained a total of five earlier stocks, all preserved in 'untouched' but heavily damaged condition, of Styrian haquebuts of ca. 1540, the tinderlock mechanisms retained but partly incomplete, with the barrels all gone. Each of those three lots fetched a tremendous price although all they comprised were mere fragments, mostly of early- to mid-17th c. wheellock and matchlock guns, plus a few detached barrels belonging to none of the fragments!

Well, I found out that somebody from Portugal, whom I had got to know many years ago, bought all those lots on the phone without even having viewed them or ordered lots of photos - the way I did. He told me he was planning on completing all those relicts and selling them. I replied that I had my sincere doubts whether that would work. He offered me the worst preserved of the five early stocks for 12.500 euro, which I rejected. So I kept watching out.

On 26 Nov 2008, two of those formerly fragmentary stocks and locks entered the auction at Bonhams London, furnished with a brandnew coat of paint, and 'completed' with iron dummy barrels the bores of which were drilled only for a short length! They were described correctly by David Wiliams and, of course, did not sell.
The first piece attached was the result of a completely incompetent 'restoration', the tinderlock serpentine, trigger and trigger guard all made in 17th c. style, instead of the original ca. 1540 shape, even though it came from Fronsberg with that 17th c. trigger and guard. The second retained its damaged tinder holder and long tiller trigger (bent).

But the story goes on.

On 17 Oct 2010, the two pieces showed up at Hermann Historica's, Munich, lots 2017 and 2028, where they failed to sell.
On 4 Nov 2013, one of those dummies was unsold again at Hermann Historica's sale in Munich, lot 21. Once more, the catalog text stated that the barrel actually was a dummy.
They continue making their round on the market, though.



Best,
Michael

Two 14th c. Wrought-iron Handgonnes
 

The first ca. 1375-1400, sold Christie's Rome, June 18, 1975.

A so-called Steinbüchse, wrought of wound band iron (cf. the Aljubarrota barrels) but of more archaic form, with small breech (Pulverkammer) and wider forword piece (Flug) to receive either an incendiary arrow (Büchsen-Brandpfeil) or a limestone ball.
Overall length 23 cm.

Originally probably attached to a stock by two iron bands.
Its present whereabouts unknown.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...handgonne+iron



Another, important and finely wrought Steinbüchse for throwing limestone balls or incendiary arrows, also ca. 1375-1400, segmented, with various reinforced sections, round throughout, large touch hole at rear top end, the breech and a reinforced segment punched with Gothic trefoils and a row of circles, the wide muzzle section struck on top with the Cross of St. George, which might be an indication of a Swiss origin.
Mounted with a swiveling ring for suspension, possibly for a horseman of the kind depicted in a mid-15th c. drawing (attached).
Overall length 34.2 cm.
Sold Sotheby's London, 8 Dec 1988, lot 276.

Best,
m

A Very Dubious 'Handgonne'
 

This and similar pieces have made their way through the market on various continents. In an U.S. auction it allegedly sold at 4,000 USD on 3 Dec 2010, but failed to sell at Hermann Historica, Munich, on 4 May 2004 at an estimate of 2,800 euro.
The overall length is 28.5 cm, the weight 3.72 kg.

In my opinion, some joker drove two barrels, wrought of wound band iron, and of Aljubarrota type into each other; the rectangular barrel loop at the end of the larger barrel seems to be an 18th/19th c. addition.


m

A Rare Nuremberg Workpiece of a Tiller Gun Bronze Barrel, Mid-15th c.
 

Finely wrought, of octagonal section, with integrally cast bands and friezes in high relief, the chiseling work seemingly unfinished, one band bearing the initials INRI (for Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum); the touch hole with igniting pan at the right side of the top flat, with rear end socket for attachment of a tiller stock, above the breech two indistinct coats-of-arms in shields, the forward section broken off and missing. In excavated condition.
Overall length 27 cm, retaining about half of its former length.
Hermann Historica, Munich, 5 Oct 2004, lot 504.

m

Vinced ... but not convinced :o :shrug:
This Aljubarrota cannon issue is way far from clarified, i guess.
I have sent an email to The Navy Museum, asking for pictures of the trom chamber in various angles, includign the touch hole. I don't have much hope that they will answer, though :shrug:

Most museums do not reply at all, 'Nando. :(

m

A Wrought-iron Tiller Gun, ca. 1420-30
 

Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.


m

A Nuremberg Wrought-iron Haquebut Barrel, ca. 1525-30
 

Of round section throughout, tapering towards the muzzle and segmented into three stages by incised double lines in front of the breech and additionally highlighted by a raised rounded frieze in front of the elongated, swamped muzzle section. Large, round touch hole with deeply hollowed trough on the right rear side; the rear sight missing, the rectangular hole still present, no foresight. Next to the rear sight a barrelsmith's workshop mark of a design often found on Nuremberg barrels.
On the underside there is a barrel loop and a piercing in the straight hook, both for insertion of transversal pins to attach a full stock.
Length 99 cm (Ganzer Haken), bore 22 mm.

Hermann Historica's, 7 April 2008.

A Wrought-iron Tiller Gun (Stangenbüchse), ca. 1450-60
 

Of small dimensions (Viertelhaken) and round section throughout, small touch hole with large, funnel-shaped trough on top, long straight rectangular hook forge welded to the barrel, no sights. The long, straight forge welded iron tiller terminating in a ring for handling. Rectangular recoil hook.
Overall length 77 cm, bore 14 mm.

A similar, but smaller and somewhat earlier piece, ca. 1430-40, is preserved in The City Museum of Cologne (image attached),

Hermann Historica's, Munich, 7 April 2008.

A Heavy Netherlandish Wall Gun Barrel for a Doppelhaken, ca. 1540
 

The description by the auction house was complete nonsense. This was a heavy, round barrel for a wall gun, not for a rifle as the bore is smooth. The square muzzle section was characteristic of 16th c. barrels from the Netherlands, and so was the rear sight with small peep hole; the bead foresight was located on the muzzle section. At the right-hand side there was the touch hole in the center of a dovetailed rectangular pan, the swiveling cover missing. Long, rectangular, pierced recoil hook.
Length 124 cm, bore 26 mm.

Hermann Historica, Munich, 24 Oct 2011.

A Fully Stocked Nuremberg/Bavarian Wall Gun (Doppelhaken), ca. 1490-1500
 

Heavy, octagonal wrought-iron barrel changing flats to an upper ridge at its forward section, deeply struck barrelsmith's mark above the breech; no sights; small right-hand side touch hole, the original pan trough removed; the barrel segmented in three stages by a roped frieze at about one third of its length, and another immediately in front of the short, swamped muzzle section with bell-mouthed muzzle. Rectangular recoil hook.
Retaining its original oak? wood full stock with slightly downcurved buttstock, attached by two iron bands, their ends intertwined at the bottom; the buttstock branded with the initials DK, its rear end a replacement.
Overall length 148 cm, bore 34 mm.

As those Late-Gothic barrels usually feature much thicker barrel walls and somewhat smaller bores (ca. 22-26 mm), I think that that barrel has been drilled out to its present bore during the late Thirty Years War, ca. 1645.

Hermann Historica, 23 April 2012, lot 33.

Two Austrian Haquebut Wall Guns (Dopelhaken), ca. 1500, And a Barrel
 

These I photographed in the former collection of a friend of mine way back in the 1980's. Unfortunately, he had to deaccession them long ago.
They retained their original stocks, the one on top of light oak wood, the other probably of fir; both stocks were attached to the wrought-iron barrels by iron bands intertwined at the bottom.
Both barrels were of round section, with dovetailed right-hand side round igniting pans, the swiveling covers missing, the pivot rivets still retained. The one on top not sighted, the other with rear and foresight. The hooks were rectangular.
The end of the buttstock of the lower haquebut broken off, the remainder showing some carved foliage ornament. Please note that the forestock of both haquebuts terminate in front of the muzzle section, which can be observed in most similar cases: the muzzle section was left unstocked.
Overall length ca. 150 cm.

The detached barrel of octagonal shape throughout, ca. 1490-1500, with rear and foresight, the touch hole originally located on the first right-hand edge, but nailed up and moved to the right flat; the dovetailed pan missing. The rear sight, heart-shaped, seemed to be an alteration of the late Thirty Years War, ca. 1645-48, as that was a shape common to the mid-17th c. Interestingly, the bore of that barel had not been enlarged in the Thirty Years War.
Above the breech a deeply struck maker's mark, a shield with one cube sinister and another in the upper right half. Short, heavily swamped octagonal muzzle section bearing a blade foresight. Prepared for a full stock, with one rear barrel loop beneath the breech and another formed by a pierced hole in the rectangular hook.
Length ca. 90 cm.

Remarkably, that barrel had an almost identical double in the same collection, but in finer condition, the underside retaining its original red lead minium paint once hidden (and preserved!) by the full stock. Also, the maker's mark was identical.


Enjoy.
m

Most amazing :eek:
I know that this example existed, but i have never seen it before.
Such one and mine are practically siamese twins.
... and you that very well, Michl ;) .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tiller

Is it a coincidence that both have their tails cut off ? Purposely ?
... or was they born like that ... with a sort of 'tang', to fix them on a stock? :o

That barrel of yours indeed slipped off my memory, 'Nando,


The way how similar those two items are is really amazing.

I don't know why the tillers are missing because they of course acted as stocks.


m

I just love this thread, there are so many haquebuts and information i didn't find on the internet... and believe me i looked high and low for them :D

Do you also know (or can you give an estimate) about how many haquebuts have survived? They are not easily found, but if you see how many the museum in Graz has...
And how big was there impact on the battlefield (where there many of them employed)?

The English longbow was in some extend capable of penetrating through armour, so where the haquebuts less common in England? (as far as i remember, and i am no expert so correct me if i am wrong about the long bow, but they where easier to make than haquebuts but required a bit more training to use though).

Just a few questions i came up with :o

Hi Marcus,


It's really hard to tell how many Gothic haquebuts, that is from the period before ca. 1510, actually survived; Graz mostly holds haquebuts from the 1520's to the 1580's but only very few Late-Gothic barrels that were restocked in the late 17th c. and are now parts of much younger wall guns.

I would say that no more than about 500 Gothic haquebut barrels have survived altogether, only very few of them retaining their original stocks.

Haquebuts (ganze Haken) and wall guns (Doppel- und doppelte Doppelhaken) were normally not used on battlegrounds, at least not on the side of the aggressor. Basically, they belonged to the lighter defense artillery of fortified places such as fortresses and towns where they were mostly kept loaded and primed in arsenals and on watchtowers. Thus, iron and bronze haquebut barrels alike are often excavated near old town walls, where they were fired from the loopholes - and sometimes happened to fall all the way down.

I am not competent enough to actually compare a haquebut to a longbow, I'm afraid.


Best,
Michael

A Very Rare And Early Wrought-iron Haquebut Retaining its Tiller Stock, ca. 1440-50
 

The hexagonal barrel with top flat, not sighted, the breech reinforced, the muzzle with large plate-shaped reinforcement, the surfaces not polished, retaining traces of red lead minium coating; small, rectangular hook at about one third of the overall length; the touch hole at the rear of the top flat. Original long and faceted, slightly downcurved, pointed oval tiller stock, possibly beechwood, put into the socket of the barrel.
Overall length 168 cm (ganzer Haken), bore 21 mm, 11.5 kg.
Exhibited in the Fortress of Coburg, Northern Bavaria, inv.-no IV.D.1.

m

An Outline of Haquebut Wall Guns Through Three Centuries
 

At the Fortress Coburg in Northern Bavaria, you can study heavy wall pieces from the mid-15th to the early 18th century, most of them re-using Gothic barrels.


1. For the one on top cf. previous post.

2. Cast-bronze barrel, ca. 1500-10, first decade 16th c., bearing the Gothic minuscule p mark of Sebald II Pehaim, red-copper founder (Rotgießer) in Nuremberg; five-staged barrel with three sided and two round forward sections, including a raided, short and round muzzle section with integrally cast full-length foresight, the block rear sight and right-hand side pan on the barrel base section. Stepped, rectagular hook.
Beechwood full stock and matchlock of ca. 1640-45, high time of the Thirty Years War.
Overall length 150 cm, bore 22 mm, 16 kg (Doppelhaken).

3. Overall made in ca. 1620, Early Thirty Years War, in Suhl/Thuringia, the wrought-iron, sighted barrel octagonal to round, with round, reinforced muzzle and rectangular hook serrated at the rear, trunnions; combined wheellock and snap-matchlock ignition, beechwood full stock.
This heavy piece (Doppelhaken-Bockbüchse) was mounted on a wheeled carriage (Bocklafette), as shown below.
The close-ups are from the exact firing replica made by Armin König.
Overall length 228 cm, bore 27 mm, 19 kg.

4. Wrought-iron three-staged, sighted barrel, ca. 1500-10, octagonal throughout changing flats at about the rear fourth of its length, and back at almost mid-section; short, swamped, octagonal muzzle, long rectangular hook. Beechwood full stock and flintlock with rounded banana-shaped lock plate, all ca. 1700-30.
Overall length 175.5 cm, bore 25 mm, 23 kg.


m

A Fine Wrought-iron Tiller Haquebut, ca. 1450, in the Berlin Museum
 

Octagonal barrel with rear socket, retaining much of its original red lead minium paint, large funnel-shaped touch hole on top ridge, short, heavily swamped muzzle section, no sights. The slightly downcurved, blackened tiller stock ca. 2nd half to late 15th c., widening towards its rear end, painted in white with an illegible sign, the Gothic miniscule h and a cross.
Barrel length 89 cm, bore 24 mm.
In the reserve collection of the Berlin Arsenal (Zeughaus) in the Deutsches Historisches Museum.

Hi Marcus,
We can read in diverse material that the longbow, appeared in England early fourteenth century, was a formidable weapon. It superceeded firearms in effectiveness and accuracy, although ir needed exhaustive training. You would need to have the practice of a veteran to be a reliable element in battle formation. In the battle of Aljubarrota (August 1385), experienced English mercenaries had a decisive role in the event. On the other hand, firearms could be used equally by the strong and the weak and with far less training.
Contemporary crossbows had an even more powerful effect but their reloading ratio has been always a handicap ... maybe less for hunting than for fighting.
I would put it that, during far more than a century, bows were more effective than firearms ... haquebuts and all.

Another Wrought-iron 15th C. Barrel
 

This is in the private collection of a friend of mine.

Octagonal, slightly tapering towards the muzzle, this barrel is remarkable for having an earlier touch hole nailed up and a new one, with a surrounding funnel shaped trough, pierced on what now seems to be the top flat.
Originally, this item, too, would have been fixed by two iron bands to a wooden stock. There is a high probability why there are still so many similar early barrels around. My theory is that most of them were part of multibarrel organs or devices:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+iron+barrels

Attached please find an illustration by Konrad Kyeser, Eichstätt, Bavaria, from his work Bellifortis (The Strong One at War), 1405, depicting such a rotating multibarrel device, and two samples of the earliest shape of a rectangularly curved igniting iron:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...igniting+irons


m

The barrel of a heavy Tyroean tiller haquebut, ca. 1490, and preserved in poor, excavated condition with yellow spots of salt all over the surface, was just sold at a small Bavarian auction at a hammer price of 5,500 euro, which in my eyes was way too much considering the fact that unless professionally desalted and conserved, the piece will slowly continue to dissolve part for part.

The touch hole was placed on the half right side, and the eight-sided muzzle section showed the characteristic dents of the 'Maximilian' style crown's head.

m

Nvertheless a rather interesting piece :cool:

Right, at least for as long as it won't crumble to pieces right before your eyes ...


m

An interesting tiller gun with octagonal wrought-iron barrel, ca. 1460-80, sold for a hammer price of 7.200 euro in the same auction as the foregoing item.
The barrel was struck with a maker's mark on the underside (!), a segmented circle, and the rear end of the wooden haft retained an old reinforcing wire binding.
Overall length 127 cm, bore 16 mm.

m

It's one of the most beautiful barrels, I have ever seen. The shape of it is typical and at the same time unusual. According to my calculation barrel length is about 318 mm and the stock length is 952 mm