Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   Keris Warung Kopi (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   Keris with „sickleshape-blade“ for comments (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25392)

thomas hauschild 2nd November 2019 12:25 PM

Keris with „sickleshape-blade“ for comments
 
3 Attachment(s)
I can‘t get connection the keris area, admins please feel free to move.

This keris is on the way to me. Never saw a pic of a piece like this. Till now I heard something from west Java and east Java. Maybe somebody knows more ?
Best Thomas

kai 2nd November 2019 03:04 PM

Hello Thomas,

This obviously is a keris blade that was bent on purpose during forging. From the pics, it does seem to have some age including the fittings.

It may be correctly placed in this forum though since a pretty similar example shown earlier on the keris forum got emphatically declined membership among keris proper if I recall correctly (will try to send a link later). This was coming from an Orang Jawa perspective...

Regards,
Kai

Amuk Murugul 2nd November 2019 09:22 PM

Hullo Thomas,

My two-doeits' worth (first impression):

- Overall sheathed assemblage reminiscent of southern Kalamantan; in particular, a djambia/jambia/jambya/jambeya.

- Blade simplicity similar to southern Kalamantan or Soenda.

- I recall mention of a Djawa pakem which includes a keris djambia; but I don't recall its details (wintjikan).

I did some quick research and found a peninsular 7Eloek tjombong keris w/ kembang-katjang; also a plain keris w/ a ngganja (not a tjengkrong)from northern Soelawesi. So, while rare, it appears that they are not unique?

Best,

Battara 3rd November 2019 01:56 AM

Wow - not seen one like this before.

I'll send over to the Keris section.

A. G. Maisey 3rd November 2019 03:44 AM

An interesting thing, clearly has some age, does not look like an alteration, but could be.

I doubt that it can legitimately be classified as a keris.

As Amuk comments, it does tend towards a jambiyo

Henk 3rd November 2019 05:44 AM

I've seen one before in the collection of an important Dutch collector years ago.
Unfortunately I cann't remember details. Very nice to see another one.

thomas hauschild 3rd November 2019 07:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo Thomas,

My two-doeits' worth (first impression):

- Overall sheathed assemblage reminiscent of southern Kalamantan; in particular, a djambia/jambia/jambya/jambeya.

- Blade simplicity similar to southern Kalamantan or Soenda.

- I recall mention of a Djawa pakem which includes a keris djambia; but I don't recall its details (wintjikan).

I did some quick research and found a peninsular 7Eloek tjombong keris w/ kembang-katjang; also a plain keris w/ a ngganja (not a tjengkrong)from northern Soelawesi. So, while rare, it appears that they are not unique?

Best,



Thank you very much amuk murugul. A research depends mostly on the right name to search. Now I’m a step forward.

Jean 3rd November 2019 09:35 AM

1 Attachment(s)
See what a jambiya from Yemen looks like in comparison.
Regards

Amuk Murugul 3rd November 2019 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
See what a jambiya from Yemen looks like in comparison.
Regards

Hullo Jean,

Just thought I'd add this link to a southern Kalamantan djambia for comparison:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...3987#post243987

Best,

kai 3rd November 2019 11:05 AM

Hullo AM,

I believe you meant this posting of yours?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...622&postcount=5

Regards,
Kai

Amuk Murugul 3rd November 2019 06:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hullo AM,

I believe you meant this posting of yours?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...622&postcount=5

Regards,
Kai

Hullo Kai,

Thanks! Yes, that's what I meant.
I'm rather tech-challenged; after a few tries to do what I wanted, I gave up and did what I could.
Thanks again.

I managed to track one down again; posting a pic (with apologies to the owner).

Best

David 4th November 2019 06:59 PM

Well, my own personal viewpoint on whether or not this should be considered a keris should carry little weight in the community at large, but i see this much more as a keris than i do a jambiyo. I mean, everything else that one would expect from a keris is there except for the curvature of the blade. At the same time, certainly the curvature alone cannot qualify a blade as a jambiyo any more than a wavy luk blade can qualify a blade as a keris without the other recognized elements that make up a keris.
The blade looks genuinely old and the curve looks intentional and original to me. Certainly this is out of pakem, and i do realize that for some any keris dhapur that is outside of pakem is not a true keris. But i would happily accept this particular example into my family of keris and would consider it one, albeit a strange bird in the flock. ;)

A. G. Maisey 4th November 2019 10:46 PM

Possibly the question of whether something is a keris or is not a keris is a question of perspective. For some people it might be a matter of compliance with one or another pakem, for others it might be a matter compliance with certain spiritual or esoteric factors.

David 5th November 2019 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Possibly the question of whether something is a keris or is not a keris is a question of perspective. For some people it might be a matter of compliance with one or another pakem, for others it might be a matter compliance with certain spiritual or esoteric factors.

Fully agree.

Jean 5th November 2019 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well, my own personal viewpoint on whether or not this should be considered a keris should carry little weight in the community at large, but i see this much more as a keris than i do a jambiyo. I mean, everything else that one would expect from a keris is there except for the curvature of the blade. At the same time, certainly the curvature alone cannot qualify a blade as a jambiyo any more than a wavy luk blade can qualify a blade as a keris without the other recognized elements that make up a keris.
The blade looks genuinely old and the curve looks intentional and original to me. Certainly this is out of pakem, and i do realize that for some any keris dhapur that is outside of pakem is not a true keris. But i would happily accept this particular example into my family of keris and would consider it one, albeit a strange bird in the flock. ;)


David,
Being also a collector of jambiyas and khanjars from the Middle-East, I fully concur with your opinion although I would accept that this kris has a "dapur jambiya" ;)
Regards

David 6th November 2019 01:22 AM

I can see that Jean. :)

A. G. Maisey 6th November 2019 06:54 AM

I think I'm going to disagree with this "dhapur keris" idea.

A dhapur is set down in a pakem.

A pakem is a guide that has been established by some sort of authority, usually a kraton, and that pakem sets down the ricikan for the particular dhapur.

Just because a keris has a blade shape that is curved like a jambiyo blade does not mean that it can be called "Dhapur Jambiyo".

Until we can find a pakem that sets forth the requirements for a keris to be named as "Dhapur Jambiyo" I feel that it would be wise to refer to this particular object in a different way than by using the word "dhapur".

My personal take on it is that we have jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo.

Until an agreeable pakem surfaces we do not have a Keris of Dhapur Jambiyo.

We simply do not have the required authority to hand out dhapurs as it suits us.

In my post #13 I mentioned esoteric and spiritual reasons for regarding something as a legitimate keris. Clearly that measure cannot apply in this case.

Henk 6th November 2019 01:49 PM

I agree with Alan. I do remember that the collector who showed me such a keris called it a bent keris and a rarity. He certainly didn't refered to a dapur.

JBG163 6th November 2019 04:55 PM

From a javanese friend :

"dhapur Kuku bima"

A. G. Maisey 6th November 2019 06:45 PM

I would most gently suggest that "Dhapur Kuku Bima" is an invention of the trade, or of Indonesian collectors from the modern era. I very much doubt that this dhapur will be found in any legitimate pakem.

thomas hauschild 6th November 2019 06:55 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Have the piece now in my hand. Some close ups from the blade.

Best Thomas

David 9th November 2019 04:01 PM

Sorry for taking so long to follow up on responses. Thanks for posting these newer photos.
From my personal perspective i would certainly call this a keris and can see in your newer pics that it is indeed a well crafted piece that was certainly (or almost so since certainty is dangerous in the keris world ;) ) say that the curve is original and made with intention.
I do, of course, agree with Alan on the question of dhapur names. As Alan says, dhapur is set down in pakem and i don't think you will find this one in any known pakem. Of course, it is the penchant of collectors everywhere to name, tag and catalog every aspect of the things they collect and keris are no different. So be it disdainful or not, i suspect that people will continue to apply dhapur names to keris for which none should actually apply. As Alan says, the "invention of the trade". And for many if you cannot put a name to every aspect of the keris you cannot possibly understand that keris. But i will disagree that we have a jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo. Why? Because just as a wavy blade of any sort is not automatically a keris as so many uninformed folks seem to think, every blade with a curve like this is not a jambiyo. I just don't think that the curve alone is enough to justify the comparison and think you were being much more accurate describing it as "sickle-shaped".
I also don't think we can necessarily disregard the possibility of esoteric and/or spiritual reasons for regarding this as a legitimate keris. Given that it seem to be clearly old and intention work i do not believe we can ever truly know what the intention of the maker and/or original owner was for this dagger.
For the record it is something i would gladly add to my own collection if i were to have encountered it first. ;)

Amuk Murugul 9th November 2019 08:31 PM

"Dapur Jambeya"?
 
Hullo again Thomas! :)

Just to follow up on my previous response:
The following central Java description may relate to your post :

dapur jambeya:straight blade, pejetan, tikel alis, tingil.

Sticking point: Just how curved can a blade be to be accepted as "straight"?

Best,

A. G. Maisey 10th November 2019 01:41 AM

That's interesting Amuk.

Are you able to name the source for this information?

In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:-

Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade
Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve
DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve.

In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.

Jean 10th November 2019 09:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
That's interesting Amuk.

Are you able to name the source for this information?

In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:-

Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade
Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve
DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve.

In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.


Hello Alan,
This is the source of information of Amuk.
This book "Keris Daya Magic - Manfaat - Tuah - Misteri" was first published in 1997 and it lists 380 straight dapurs/ designs of Javanese blades so much more than the Surakarta pakem. Whether it is legitimate or not is another story but it is quite popular in Indonesia....
However the author basically reproduces the Surakarta pakem at the end of the book but with some variations.
Regards

Mickey the Finn 10th November 2019 10:29 AM

"Keris [&] Daya Magic-Manfaat-Tuah-Misteri (Edisi Revisi)"
Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro,Occ.
5th printing 2000
Publisher: Dahara Prize Semarang
Printer: Effhar Offset Semarang

My copy, around that time, went for 121,673 Rp. (Not for sale. Price for information purposes only. No offers, no matter how unreasonable, will be entertained). Currently, about 859,000 Rp. at one unnamed seller. [I am not that unnamed seller. I found that price by googling the title and converting the USD price quoted there].

A. G. Maisey 10th November 2019 04:35 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

Yes, I know that book, I've read it, I think I've still got a copy somewhere. Going back some years I sold a few copies of it.

That list of dhapur in the book will possibly have been drawn from one of the many books and leaflets that were printed in late colonial times, there were also a couple done almost immediately after Indonesia became a country. Daya Magic might have a reference for where this was drawn from. When I get time I'll have a look through my copies of some of these old publications --- I have copies of everything about keris that is in the Mangkunegaraan library, all except Pirngadie.

David 17th November 2019 12:15 AM

Unfortunately there is not much of this video that i can understand, but there is quite a bit of focus and discussion going on surrounding the sickle-like keris shown here so i am hoping that those who speak the language will find some useful information here regarding such keris blades. :shrug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBO...QS6WMbTzbsCgrJE

thomas hauschild 17th November 2019 05:50 PM

Thanks David. Thanks A lot for your efforts. You are right I do not realy understand so much. Only „one luk keris“. But this is good to hear.

Best regards Thomas

JustYS 18th November 2019 01:35 AM

Hi David,

I've watched the first 8 minutes of the video when they were discussing the 1 luk keris.

Basically what the gentleman (Bapak Heri Saptono) in the video said were:

- He was part of a FB group called: Keris Collectors Global Study Group

- At first he thought the Keris in question was Kuku Bhima

- But another gentleman in the FB group (Mr. David Sorcher?, he was not sure he spelled the last name correctly) pointed out to him that it was a 1 luk keris.

Guess we need to find this Mr. David Sorcher? so that he can explain more in details about this 1 luk keris.


Cheers,

YS


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:31 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.