Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   16TH Century stiletto dagger ? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22041)

Cerjak 1st November 2016 11:53 AM

16TH Century stiletto dagger ?
 
5 Attachment(s)
16TH Century stiletto dagger ?
It has a cruciform blade
O.L. 29 cm ; blade L. 19 cm
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best

Cerjak

fernando 1st November 2016 12:26 PM

Isn't the blade a shortened one ? The handle, some crude replacement ? :o .

mariusgmioc 1st November 2016 02:57 PM

Very confusing piece. I believe only the crossguard may come from a 16 c stiletto but the rest is of much more recent artisanal production.

Definitely not typical stiletto. :shrug:

drac2k 1st November 2016 03:22 PM

Very interesting ; I think it may be more of a WW1 trench dagger;the blade looks to be made of a French Lebel bayonet.
Nice dagger !

Cerjak 1st November 2016 04:33 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Hi
Thank you for your answers and opinions
I should have post before some more pics and add more dimensions.
The blade width at hilt 1.5 cm /8mm so can’t be from a French Lebel bayonet who blade width is about 13 mm.The wood show real sign of age,and the guard and blade corrosion are homogenous so should be from the same period. Yes the grip is crudely made or I would say basic but again seems really old and definitively not a recent work. Also Similar blade geometry are found in 16-17TH stiletto dagger.
Let see what other members think about this small dagger..

Cerjak 3rd November 2016 12:13 PM

1 Attachment(s)
similar quillons are found in the 16th to 17th dagger
see pictures

fernando 3rd November 2016 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak
similar quillons are found in the 16th to 17th dagger
see pictures

Yes but, not the blades :o .

mariusgmioc 3rd November 2016 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
Yes but, not the blades :o .

Neither the hilts! ;)

cornelistromp 3rd November 2016 07:27 PM

1 Attachment(s)
it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

mariusgmioc 4th November 2016 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

Hello Jasper,

I honestly fail to see too many similarities between the blade in question and the one in the photo you provided. The one in your example appears to be triangular with fullers on each face, while the one in the original posting is flat with two grooves/three ridges on each of the two sides.

:shrug:

Cerjak 4th November 2016 12:59 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,
I have expected your answer about this dagger.
I felt strongly that this blade was not a recent pattern and from the same period than the quillon but I could not find similar blade geometry in my data.
I feel more comfortable with your about opinion that it is a composite and probably made during the 17TH century with 16-17th century component .

Best
Jean-Luc

cornelistromp 4th November 2016 10:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Jasper,

I honestly fail to see too many similarities between the blade in question and the one in the photo you provided. The one in your example appears to be triangular with fullers on each face, while the one in the original posting is flat with two grooves/three ridges on each of the two sides.

:shrug:

it is not triangular but a blade of Diamond section, both sides have a Long flattened ridge, running in the middle of the blade.
With this type of blades, often , at one side the ridge extends over the ricasso and at the other side the ridge stops before the ricasso, so that the thumb can be placed on a flat surface.

best,

mariusgmioc 6th November 2016 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it is not triangular but a blade of Diamond section, both sides have a Long flattened ridge, running in the middle of the blade.
With this type of blades, often , at one side the ridge extends over the ricasso and at the other side the ridge stops before the ricasso, so that the thumb can be placed on a flat surface.

best,

Thank you for the clarification! :)

Still, quite different from the one in the original posting.

Not that I am very knowledgeable, but I haven't seen that type of blade before.

:shrug:

cornelistromp 6th November 2016 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Thank you for the clarification! :)

I haven't seen that type of blade before.

:shrug:

Quote Oakeshott
"that you have never seen it before means nothing unless you have seen them all, those hundreds thousands of blades"


best,
jasper

mariusgmioc 6th November 2016 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp
Quote Oakeshott
"that you have never seen it before means nothing unless you have seen them all, those hundreds thousands of blades"


best,
jasper

True indeed! :D

Cerjak 13th December 2016 09:12 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

Hi JASPER

I found this dagger said to be Italian with same quillons and blade .
best

Jean-Luc

Multumesc 13th December 2016 12:08 PM

Nice dagger :)


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