Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.
 

Hi All,
New aquisition, blade length 29 3/4 inches 35 1/2 inches overall. I think an Ottoman/Turkish blade mounted with a European hilt possibly Austrian or perhaps Swiss and with a purpose built metal European style scabbard with slot to upper part and suspension ring to accommodate the curve. Do you think this is a trophy remounted or a European style mount commissioned by an Ottoman officer? As you can see there is Arabic script on the blade, presumably Turkish but maybe not, a translation by our resident team is much looked forward to. The blade itself has a pattern and I would be grateful to the experts in this field as to how I should go about bringing out the best that the blade may have to offer. I look forward to all opinions and thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I will endeavour to get better photographs soon.

Hi,
Here is a similar item from the Higgins tagged as Austrian C1845. The basket hilt is not exactly the same and the blade maybe of European manufacture influenced by the Ottoman style. I have also seen a British General officers Mamaluke hilted sword with an Ottoman Kilic blade.
Regards,
Norman.

A very fine sword indeed Norman. Did you have to remortgage the farm for that one?? :eek:

Looks pattern welded and not wootz to me.
Be careful with any etching as you of course also have western military type etched designs.

A very, VERY light etch with warm vinegar might show more, but be careful.

Third pic shows some pseudo-arabic gibberish. I am sure the blade is not eastern of whatever origin: european imitation. Very nice and unusual sword. Would be interesting to now whether it was a regulation pattern, place of manufacture etc.

Hi Gene,
Many thanks for your thoughts. I thought about it being a European blade but the patterned steel, the Arabic script and there is a hint of the etching having been gilded, small amount of gold where the hilt touches the blade, made me think it was Turkish. This is out of my comfort zone so I'm 'stabbing' in the dark. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Yeah it wasn't cheap. :( :eek: :)

Hi Ariel,
Thanks for the reply. Would a European blade sport 'star and crescent'
other than the earlier style sun, moon and stars motifs?
My Regards,
Norman.

Nice one. I really like the blend! The inscription at the top says "bashir almumeneen" (bring glad tidings to the believers. Quranic verse) the bottom one says "hibir/hisir (?) albab" (I think its either a name or a sufi reference albab means door)

What about the latin inscription? I cant read it... Maybe some date is there?

Hi,
Many thanks for your comments and help re the translation, I'm a bit lost as to the Latin inscription, which text do you mean?
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi,
Sword sold by Christies described as an Austrian officers presentation sabre .
Regards,
Norman.

Hey mate,

I meant the 3rd picture. Seems like latin letters to me.

Hi every body
no Latin inscription, the alphabet used seems to be Cyrillic :p
may be "Serb" or "Macedonian"
when we'll know from where this alphabet,
we'll know, from where it's came from, this beautiful "Pala" ;)
we dunno at all to read Eastern languages :shrug:

à +

Dom

Salam Alaikum Bro!

Well done. Could this be from albanians maybe? No idea, i am just guessing, highly doubt that Serbs will quote Quran so it could be muslims speaker of the language.

Ain't no Cyrillic. It does remind some Cyrillic letters, but no more than Arabic ones.

who ever made the etching have normally used Arabic on one side. Makes no sense if he/she would etch pseudo Arabic gibberish on the other side. Imho, there is a 'k' and '5' on the other 'latin' inscription but I could be wrong. Interesting piece anyways!

An awesome sword Norman, thanks for sharing!

Gav

Hi Guys,
Thanks to all for your continued interest and comments. Am still searching the net etc. for more answers. Please feel free to chip in with any ideas. :cool: :)
Regards,
Norman.

Hi,
See what you mean but not Latin, am thinking from somewhere possibly in the Eastern part of the Austro-Hungarian empire but am a bit stumped at the moment. Looks for all the world like a set of three initials and a date????
My Regards,
Norman.

It occured to me that the crescent moon with three stars might pertain to a particular part of the empire. That might help to ID the script?

Just noticed the crescent and stars. Reminds me of my straight Yemeni Karabella..

Three crescent moons and three stars.... interesting.

Wasn't that the first flag of the independant Egypt a crescent moon and three stars??

Edit: add flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fl...Egypt_1922.svg

Hey Gene, How you doing? :-)

I have suggested this before in a discussion with Iain (or Gav, cant remember) I think the stamp is Egyptian khediwi symbol on my sword. Could this be the same for Norman's pala? Maybe its european made for Egypt when the army was being standardised there.. Just guessing really ;P

Hi Guys,
See what you mean about the Egyptian connection but a couple of things bother me about that. The configuration of the crescent and stars are not the same and more than that, generally the hilts on military swords especially of the 19thC denote the country of origin by some symbol or design on the basket, in this case the shape and design of this particular 'honeysuckle' basket says to me Austria, Austro-Hungarian empire or possibly Switzerland or even Southern German States although of course an emerging military anywhere could use a readily available design. The aforementioned doesn't explain the Koranic verse on the blade which, of course, tends to point to an Islamic state as an origin although this would not necessarily discount European provenance as the 'Orientalist' taste was very popular in 19thC Europe. I'm convinced that the sword is certainly mid 19thC give or take a bit. Thanks to all for their input so far.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi,
Hilt on Austrian sabre C1850. Photo from sabres.cz site.

I have seen genuine Oriental blades in British hilts, I have seen genuine Turkish barrels mounted as Austrian hunting rifles. Prior to the 1830s and even later, Eastern blades and barrels were often seen as superior to the Western product. I see this as a genuine Turkish blade , mounted at the time as an Austrian service sword, perhaps via another country like Greece or Montenegro.

Hmm, I would have fully agreed if the etching wasnt present. The fact that the Arabic inscription is etched in european style makes me think its a european production. Koftgari seems to be the way to go for turkish arms so doubt they'd use such etching.

I remember seeing a shamshir here in Kuwait, it had a european clauberg like blade but the fittings were typical Persian style. The crossguard had Quranic inscription. The blade was very interesting, it was etched in european style, at the ricasso it says "constantinople" and through out the blade maybe about 3 inchs shy from the tip its fully etched with motifs, upon viewing it from certain sides it reflects the Aya sofia which was really nice, I never seen a blade with such a visual trick. The other motifs I think are of old constantinople, european style archticture and walls, maybe some heraldic symbols.. I thought the blade looks alot like a clauberg trade blade because it had 2 shallow fullers and on the top fuller there are 3 deep fullers. There was no clauberg knight stamp.

I somehow was silly enough not to take a picture of it, maybe because I was busy admiring the wootz shamshir which I have bought. When I visited later it was sold to a Saudi, maybe if I meet him I would ask to take pictures.

Salam Aleikum my Brother
you are nearly right :p
- the "k" seems to be really a "k" ... but the "5" I have a doubt

I practiced a little bit the paleography with French documents for genealogical purpose,
with this experience, I think that may be;
- http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6386/zeec.jpg
- http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9447/94731760.jpg
- http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6831/50565056.jpg
- http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1769/48396736.jpg
Serb alphabet extracted from Wikipedia
it sure, that the Serbs wasn't Arabic speakers, but part of them was (are, still yet) Muslims
the Ottoman empire was until Vienna's gates, for a long time
as you know, it was always more Muslims than Arabic speakers, as well as now
also nothing strange, to find Islamic mention on weapons not Arabic
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3...rteottoman.gif
may I suggest you, what my translator ... read ;)
BASHIR AL MUMENEEN, KHAYR AL BAB either (but may be you could be better than me for that ...) GIVE THEM THE HOPE TO GET THE PARADISE
as far as I understood; "khayr al bab" it's the best door of the paradise, who has several
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5811/khaytalbab.jpg

enough ... that's set for today ...

à +

Dom

Hi,
Thanks guys for your continued input. :)
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
Excellent discussion and fascinating sabre! and nicely done research in the entries by all on a topic I had not really encountered before. This is the first Ive seen of these apparantly Austrian sabres with pala blades. I agree this blade appears European interpretation of these Ottoman forms.

I would suggest this Austrian pattern officers hilt post 1845 with this unusual blade may be associated with diplomatic or presentation circumstances during the early years of the Austro-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1878 until WWI. This was undertaken with concerns with the decaying Ottoman control and strategic location, and possibly the Islamic motif had to do of course with Bosniak matters there, perhaps with military officer in Austrian service. I am not familiar with the alphabet of these regions but perhaps the letters may correspond to that period in these regions? The stars and crescent may also have to do with device in the developing Bosnian flag or insignia. I had originally thought of these symbols used as mentioned in Egypt and Arabian context, as well as shooting stars and crescent used by Solingen later in the 19th c. but as yet unclear on those possible connections.

Just a theory, but seems plausible that further research might reveal some connection, and as already noted, this sword likely quite important to that historical period.

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
Just a quick note. Thanks for your input re this unusual piece. What I have not said before is that there is clear evidence of the sword having been used, not abused, combatively i.e. small nicks on the edge where one may expect them and some small 'cuts' on the upper edge consistent with edge contact/parrying with another blade. I'm not sure about the date to the latter half of the 19thC I'm pretty sure the hilt pattern had changed by then. Thanks again for having a look. I would be interested if anyone could comment more on the make up of the blade re the obvious pattern, is it definitely a pattern welded blade?
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
Good points! I am thinking that perhaps in this context (Austrian occupied Bosnia) that possibly this sabre might have been used in Bosniak auxiliary contingents? Austria was in many ways the pioneer of these kinds of units in the 18th century with thier Pandour regiments, made up of mostly Croatian and other Balkan as well as Hungarian troops. While the original units of von Trenck were disbanded the concept of auxiliary ethnic forces to units of the line remained very much in force and adopted by other imperial powers as well.
This often led to 'exotic' weapon hybrids and I have seen examples of hirshfanger style yataghan bladed sabres presumed to be of French Illyrian units as well as yataghan bladed sabres in English cavalry hilts of 1796 pattern. Europe was intrigued by exotic 'oriental' blade forms and it seems that 'flamboyant' styles were often favored by the fashion conscious officers particularly in 'foreign' theater postings.
This was also very much the case in the British Raj where British officers commanding native regiments often adopted thier weapon forms even modifying regulation patterns into fascinating hybrids. I have seen various regulation military pattern hilts on tulwar blades, and khanda and tulwar hilts on British regulation pattern blades.

While the pattern may have ceased or of course been superceded among the line regiments, these changes typically had considerably delayed impact in colonial and occupied regions far from that perview. In British India for example, the M1796 light cavalry blade was very much favored by Indian troops and these were produced to supply them through the 19th century even though they had been obsolete officially since the 1820s. Also in colonial or occupied territories weapons in use continued for dramatically extended periods. In colonial New Spain weapons obsolete on the continent were even in use far beyond, and even the 17th and 18th century style swords were used well into the 19th century.

Just more thoughts which might lend to possibilities for this interesting sabre. The presentation example shown in corroboration suggests that perhaps this blade form was used in some degree in these hilts. Very much looking forward to ideas and observations of others as well.

All the best,
Jim

Hi,
Text that accompanies the photo from the Higgins.
Regards,
Norman.

Steel single 'Kilij' blade of European manufacture. Triangular section with flat back to false edge 1/3 of length from point. Both faces nearly identically etched with trophy groups, foliate scrolls, sun-in-splendor & crescent moon. Back of blade etched with undulating foliate tendril. All decoration with traces of gilding. Basket type hilt, probably model 1845, peirced with leaved tendrils & strong turned edge. Near pommel, guard pierced with 2 slots for sword knot. Below this are characters "FI" suggesting Ferdinand I whose reign ended in 1848. Modified bird's head pommel with rounded back strap & fish-skin wrapped wooden grip with twisted & plain brass wire. Inside of guard at base of grip are traces of what may be incised letters. Some brazed repairs on hilt.

In checking in Wagner, p.420 (plate 50) shows the M1845 (much like the second example you show still in the Higgins.This has the same scroll basket guard and stepped pommel, but closer scrolled terminal with no parallel slots for swordknot.

P.422 (plate 52) confirms that your hilt is the M1850 which has these slots.

It seems that the M1845 swords had curved blade with a distinct yelman very much like oriental blades have, though of course not as pronounced as this pala type profile. The M1850 blade seems to have been of the more European profile without the yelman.

What is curious is the pommels on both these patterns have the stepped pommels, while yours seems to have a smooth 'birdhead'.

Ferdinand I apparantly abdicated in 1848 to quell political unrest in the revolutionary events that year, and his nephew Franz Joseph took power. Could the F in the cypher as well represent him? He was in power into the 20th century. It certainly does complicate matters with a device or letters representing an Austrio-Hungarian monarch along with etched Islamic motif on the blade.
The blade does not necessary have to be original to the hilt of course and in Wagner there is one example shown with earlier blade paired with later hilt , noted as that of irregular Austrian unit officer and suggesting heirloom blade.
These and many of the swords illustrated in Wagner (1967)are in the Military History Museum in Prague, and when I checked with them on several back in the 1990s they were still there. Possibly thier staff might have more information.

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your continued efforts to shed light on this sword. My photographs were not comprehensive and I apologise for giving the wrong impression re the pommel, it is stepped as this quick photo shows. The Prague connection seems worth pursuing and once I have taken some better photographs I will investigate that avenue further. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi,
After a good wipe down and an oiling.
Regards,
Norman.

Hmmm, maybe I could have worded that a bit better!!!!!! :o ;) :)

Hi,
I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you.
Regards to All,
Norman.

Dear Sir!

I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now.
The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased.

This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries.

I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming
Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik)
Heeresgeschichtliches Museum
A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1
Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320
Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850
Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707

Hi Guys,

Sorry to resuscitate this old thread, but I' m really excited to share with you some results that I got after some researches. A Pala was recently sold at a famous Italian auction house. I was intrigued by the script on the blade, it looked like Arab but it wasn't. It was clearly done by a non Arab speaker. Then I found this thread, but no more. Your so-called Austrian sword had the same kind of script on the blade. But the conclusion was that the blade was probably an Ottoman blade. I was still frustrated and finaly I found a pala almost identical but with an ivory grip. From this pala I traced a link with a sword at the Wallace Museum... with the same decorations and the same script.
Austria
1846
Steel, wood, turquoises, silver and gold, embossed, engraved and etched
Length: 93.5 cm
Weight: 0.76 kg, without scabbard
Hallmark: Vienna mark and '1846'
Inscription
OA1753
Oriental Armoury
My conclusion is now more simple and clear, I think all these swords, blades and hilts are Austrian copies of Ottoman palas. What do you think?
Best,
Kubur

Wish I had one... ;)

Hi Kubur,
A quick reply as I'm going out at the moment. The script doesn't look the same to me but I'm open to some elucidation.
My Regards,
Norman.