Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Mysterious knife number 2 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20240)

Kubur 20th July 2015 07:00 PM

Mysterious knife number 2
 
6 Attachment(s)
Hi Guys,

I would like to have your opinion about these two beauties sold recently.
They are Tunisian to me but I' not sure. For sure they are from the 19th c.
They are huge like the dharia... They are really mysterious and not common. But the decorations on the grip are common on some daggers attributed to Tunisa, Lebanon or even Armenia! It's a big mess between dealers and specialists. I think myself that they are from Tunisia.

Best,
Kubur :confused:

DaveA 21st July 2015 07:20 PM

Crested "Drooping" hilt
 
Hi,

The shape of the hilt, with a crested "drooping" pommel (also known as a "hooked" pommel) suggests southern Iraq, possibly originating with the Marsh Arabs ("Arab al-Ahwār"). However, the size is very large compared to other examples I've seen.

Very elegant. I look forward to learning more.

- Dave A.

kahnjar1 21st July 2015 07:59 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Two absolutely beautiful knives. Thanks for posting.
North Africa somewhere IMHO. The two rings on the scabbard of one of them suggests suspension by Baldric as is usual in Morocco.
The "drooping pommel" described by Dave is not necessarily Iraq. Here are pics of drooping type of pommels on Arabian Dharias.
Stu

Martin Lubojacky 21st July 2015 09:03 PM

I would wote for North Africa, Maghreb Region (engravings on the scabbard)
Regards,
Martin

Kubur 21st July 2015 09:15 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Guys,
Thanks for your messages.
I agree with Stu, IMHO this kind of hilt is common in several Muslim countries, such as Kurdish / Turkish and Turkish / Ottomans / Balkans....
Best,
Kubur

Kubur 21st July 2015 09:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Another example probably from North Africa / Tunisia
with some similarities to the previous ones.
:)

Jim McDougall 21st July 2015 11:53 PM

I agree with Stu's note observing the baldric type suspension rings on one of the brass scabbards, suggesting of course, Maghreb potential in degree. The inscriptions and overall character and quality very nice!
In post #6, note the Albacete type piercing in the blade, and seeming assortment of influences in overall components, possibly Spanish colonies in Morocco? and this seems to have good age to it.

Basically many ethnographic forms of more modern (latter 19th c, onward into 20th) knives reflect influences from various places across North Africa and into Middle East in curiously contrived hybrids. While typically quite attractive they well illustrate the futility of trying to classify these regionally as a rule.

In classifying these kinds of weapons, it is usually best to describe them as accurately as possible while adding qualifying influences which might add to origin. When the classification 'tourist' is reluctantly considered in some items, the diffusion of these through commercial channels is difficult to imagine in scope.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 22nd July 2015 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I agree with Stu's note observing the baldric type suspension rings on one of the brass scabbards, suggesting of course, Maghreb potential in degree. The inscriptions and overall character and quality very nice!
In post #6, note the Albacete type piercing in the blade, and seeming assortment of influences in overall components, possibly Spanish colonies in Morocco? and this seems to have good age to it.

Basically many ethnographic forms of more modern (latter 19th c, onward into 20th) knives reflect influences from various places across North Africa and into Middle East in curiously contrived hybrids. While typically quite attractive they well illustrate the futility of trying to classify these regionally as a rule.

In classifying these kinds of weapons, it is usually best to describe them as accurately as possible while adding qualifying influences which might add to origin. When the classification 'tourist' is reluctantly considered in some items, the diffusion of these through commercial channels is difficult to imagine in scope.


Salaams Jim, This is quite interesting since there appear to be an amalgamation of designs here... Peculiar hilt for a Sibiki or Dharia ... The stones are agate...The inscription(which is upside down) makes no sense.... Istlag benzert.

Initially the pendulum swung through Saudia to Kurdish for good reason ...even looking at Syrian etc etc but finally I found a picture of an African style ....chasing the design idea of the dots inside the circles on the hilt...at http://collectiblefirearms.com/Pictures/dag_0081-08.JPG

I think that takes us closer..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ian 22nd July 2015 10:12 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This is not my field but something about the hilt and guard jogged a distant memory of a sword that I once owned and was discussed on the old UBB Forum about 12 years ago. Here is the thread and a picture of the sword I put up for discussion (apologies for the rather poor pictures).

The hilt and guard look very similar to the piece just mentioned and there is a cut out segment of the blade as well. At the time, Oliver responded that this was a Greek qama. I hope this helps contribute to the discussion.

Ian

Kubur 22nd July 2015 10:20 AM

Thanks Ian, your dagger is the missing link between the daggers that I presented first and the third one that I posted later.
Tunisian of course, I will post more examples later.
Kubur

Kubur 22nd July 2015 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
The stones are agate...The inscription(which is upside down) makes no sense.... Istlag benzert.


:) :) :)
Ibrahim, thank you very much.

The inscription makes sens to me:
Bizerte or Banzart (بنزرت) is a town on Tunisian North coast.
Famous for his pirates after 1574, also famous for his red coral.

By the way, the stones on the hilt are red coral (common with these Tunisian daggers).

Best,
Kubur

BANDOOK 22nd July 2015 10:28 AM

KUBUR HANDSOME LOOKING DAGGERS,GOOD FIND,CHEERS

Ian 22nd July 2015 10:33 AM

I'm pleased I could make a contribution to your thread Kubur. As an aside, do you think the pierced blade on mine and the third example you posted might be related to the similar piercings on some of the Albacete Spanish knives of the 19th C? Note the example third from the right in this selection posted by Carlos in 2012.

Ian

Carlos' picture is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attac...tid=95781&stc=1

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 22nd July 2015 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
:) :) :)
Ibrahim, thank you very much.

The inscription makes sens to me:
Bizerte or Banzart (بنزرت) is a town on Tunisian North coast.
Famous for his pirates after 1574, also famous for his red coral.

By the way, the stones on the hilt are red coral (common with these Tunisian daggers).

Best,
Kubur



Salaams Kubur ... That is amazing. I'm so pleased you were able to nail down the name Bizerte. ... (Oops not agate ..but coral).... . Great thread...

In brief the Pirates story is very interesting and from lexicorient.com I note Quote" History
1st millennium BCE: Founded by the Phoenicians from Tyre as a trade and military outpost, and named Hippo Diarrythus. The Phonicians would dig a canal from Lake Bizerte.
310: Captured by Agathocles of Syracuse.
2nd century: Becomes a Roman colony following the fall of Carthage.
661 CE: Conquered by the Arab Muslims, and named Bizerte.
9th century: Bizerte is rebuilt by the command of the Aghlabids.
1535: Occupied by the Spanish.
1572: Pirates take control over Bizerte, and turn it into one of their strongholds.
1610: Youssef Dey takes control of Bizerte, and piracy continues.
1881: Together with most of Tunisia, comes Bizerte under French control, and becomes an important military centre, controlling both the northern and eastern coast of Tunisia.
1895: The French complete a new canal between Lake Bizerte and the sea. This turns the area into an ideal naval port and arsenal, with Sidi Abdallah (later Menzel Bourguiba) as the military centre". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Miguel 23rd July 2015 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
:) :) :)
Ibrahim, thank you very much.

The inscription makes sens to me:
Bizerte or Banzart (بنزرت) is a town on Tunisian North coast.
Famous for his pirates after 1574, also famous for his red coral.

By the way, the stones on the hilt are red coral (common with these Tunisian daggers).

Best,
Kubur


Hi Kubur

I have followed this thread with bated breath it was like a detective novel, absolutely brilliant how the pieces of information from the others came together just proves how useful this forum is.
Well done everyone
Miguel

messia 14th August 2018 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Hi Kubur

I have followed this thread with bated breath it was like a detective novel, absolutely brilliant how the pieces of information from the others came together just proves how useful this forum is.
Well done everyone
Miguel

Thank you. I saw this post. but did not understand how to properly call this dagger?

Kubur 25th August 2018 06:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by messia
Thank you. I saw this post. but did not understand how to properly call this dagger?


It's not a koummiya, it's not a jambiya.
Try khanjer or khanjar, just if you want a name...
:)

Kubur 1st August 2019 06:05 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Hi guys

Just wanted to share with you this lovely Tunisian dagger.
For the "name game" I would say Tunisian sbula ou sboula.
As it was said previously the link with Spanish blades is obvious.
I don't know if I'm crazy but the guard look a bit like the nimcha...

francantolin 18th November 2019 08:04 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Hello Kubur ( and all !)

I got this tunisian Bizerte genoui dagger,
I think it's exactly the same as your last pictures !!
Was it your own dagger ?
( it traveled a little ...)

Late 19th century ?
Was this kind of dagger a ceremonial model or more a tourist made item ?
Really well made, and interesting to see the mixed mediterranean influences especially the spanish-hole blade ( was it made for poison it ?
just a deco... )

Regards

mariusgmioc 19th November 2019 06:17 AM

The daggers in the original posting are North African.

Algerian to be more precise (however, an exact distinction between the place of manufacture is close to impossible since Algeria, Tunisia, parts of Morocco and Libya share pretty much the same cultural background, like say the Indo-Persian/Mughal space and time).

I would say touristy... (when I say "touristy," I don't necessarilly mean for foreign tourists but more for display, decorative purpose and not as a traditional weapon).
:shrug:

mariusgmioc 19th November 2019 06:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello Kubur ( and all !)

I got this tunisian Bizerte genoui dagger,
I think it's exactly the same as your last pictures !!
Was it your own dagger ?
( it traveled a little ...)

Late 19th century ?
Was this kind of dagger a ceremonial model or more a tourist made item ?
Really well made, and interesting to see the mixed mediterranean influences especially the spanish-hole blade ( was it made for poison it ?
just a deco... )

Regards


Touristy!

Kubur 19th November 2019 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Touristy!


Ah Marius, I prefer when you write about etching... :)

Kubur 19th November 2019 10:56 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello Kubur ( and all !)

I got this tunisian Bizerte genoui dagger,
I think it's exactly the same as your last pictures !!
Was it your own dagger ?
( it traveled a little ...)

Late 19th century ?
Was this kind of dagger a ceremonial model or more a tourist made item ?
Really well made, and interesting to see the mixed mediterranean influences especially the spanish-hole blade ( was it made for poison it ?
just a deco... )

Regards


Ciao Francatolin,
Yes it looks pretty much the same
:)
Yes it's Tunisian, may be not from Bizerte, maybe from Tunis.
Your dagger is mid 19th c. I will post tonight another one from early 19thc. (translation for Marath late 18th c.)
Neither ceremonial nor tourist, it's a proper functionnal and old dagger with very sharp and pointed blade.
Yes it has been influenced by Spanish Albacete knives.
For Marius, I will post later a late Tunisian dagger, around 1900.

Kubur

mariusgmioc 19th November 2019 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Ah Marius, I prefer when you write about etching... :)



:D :D :D ... yeah, then at least looks like I write about something I know... ;)

francantolin 19th November 2019 05:42 PM

Hello and thank you for all the informations !!

does anybody know how do they for blackening the blade like that in the 19th century ?
by heating or oxydation ?
I don't think they used gun blue ! ;)

kronckew 19th November 2019 06:28 PM

Tannic acid turns rust a nice black and stabilises the rust.

mariusgmioc 19th November 2019 06:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello and thank you for all the informations !!

does anybody know how do they for blackening the blade like that in the 19th century ?
by heating or oxydation ?
I don't think they used gun blue ! ;)


They did it like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niello

;)

Kubur 19th November 2019 07:12 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Here is the classic Tunisian dagger from 1900 1920ties
But it wont be fair to call it touristy, i prefer to say colonial souvenir....
These daggers are very sharp and very pointy, not toys.
It will be cool if Ibraheem or others can translate the inscription...

Kubur 19th November 2019 08:31 PM

2 Attachment(s)
And here the early 19th c one

francantolin 20th November 2019 12:27 PM

Really like the last one with coral and turquoise !!


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