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-   -   Shotley Bridge swordmakers (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23157)

urbanspaceman 25th November 2017 09:31 PM

a mole in the oley
 
I've just had a thought regarding the arrival of Richard Oley in Birmingham in 1724 and the apparent lack of connection between the Shotley Bridge Mohll and the Brummie Mole.
Is it possible that it was Oley who became Mole? It would explain the lack of evidence linking the two Mohll/Moles. Richard Oley may well have had his name corrupted by local accents, vernacular and domesticities and ended up with Mole. Just a thought.
Any Brummies reading this want a genealogical endeavour to pursue... I doubt it.

Hotspur 26th November 2017 01:43 AM

Quote:

Any Brummies reading this want a genealogical endeavour to pursue... I doubt it.
Show me the money! I thought this was your baby.

The British History Online link and a bit of plumbing the depths might yield information. On the other hand, a lot of genealogical research these days is pay for play. I have done work (gratis) for some threads here and continue to do so but it might be some years before your questions re Oley might hit the bottom of a very long list of things to do. If I find a family tree for you this weekend, you owe me. Seriously.


A slip of the tongue omitting an M to come up with Ole' is kind of hard in any accent, as one has a consonant. You seem to be concentrating on the wildest explanations possible instead of digging deeper on a topic (such as early hollow ground blades).

Time permitted lad, I'll take a look at your latest request (to do your project).

Take my surname of Cleeton and explain how that could be somehow be written or associated with Eaton. Cleaton, Cleoton and say, the Clee hills outside of Cleeton-St Mary. Or perhaps the manor of Cleoton or Cletune now underwater off Skipsea (1066 and all that). Could any be be mistaken as originally lacking a consonant? Back to the Halstatt era and the Black Sea with the current surname Kleeman. Always a consonant.


Cheers

GC

ha, in the first five minutes Oliey (not on Ancestry.com)

Hotspur 26th November 2017 02:08 AM

This isn't your's is it?
http://www.exodus2013.co.uk/the-shot...e-swordmakers/

Note the date 1628 and fill in some blanks.

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman 26th November 2017 09:36 PM

Myth can eventually becomes fact!
 
Hi Glenn. Please don't concern yourself with my fanciful theory; I agree that the consonant is the clincher, but I was just hoping for a break. They are very keen, over here, to retain the story about Mohll becoming Mole at whatever cost.
With regard to that 'Exodus' article: no, it is yet another catalogue of fallacies and falsehoods. The 19th C. chronicler in question (married to an Oley) misread the entry in the parish register which admittedly was faint, but it said Cler - for Cleric - not Oley.
The Shotley Bridge endeavour began in 1685.
The Vintings/Vintons were mining and forging iron and lead around there, certainly since the 1500s; and local historians will tell you that there were forges going back to before the Christian era.
We did have Germans working in the glass industry in Newcastle itself - primarily the Tyzacks - a good hundred years earlier, but Shotley Bridge sword-making with the Solingen immigrants didn't start till 1687.
BTW. You're not from Birmingham, are you?

Hotspur 26th November 2017 10:14 PM

Nope. Originallly mid west US

urbanspaceman 1st December 2017 11:08 PM

endless search
 
2 Attachment(s)
During my endless searches for examples of SB blades I occasionally come across interesting examples and such was the case this evening.
The first is a Scottish (long) dirk dating to c.1720 according to the dealer made from a cut-down backsword blade.
(Apparently, after swords were banned in Scotland following the 1715 rebellion, attempts were made to lengthen the dirk to give a degree of decent protection; hence this example.)
So-far, so well-known, amongst the cognoscenti; the curiosity is the marking on the blade: see image.
The second is described by the dealer as a late 17th C. Shotley Bridge Smallsword with 'TLE xx on one side and Bridg xx on the other plus a running fox; see image.

urbanspaceman 1st December 2017 11:16 PM

second blade
 
1 Attachment(s)
sorry, this image didn't upload the first time.
The second is described by the dealer as a late 17th C. Shotley Bridge Smallsword with 'TLE xx on one side and Bridg xx on the other plus a running fox; see image.
Sorry the resolution is poor but it's a bushy tailed fox.

Hotspur 4th December 2017 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman
sorry, this image didn't upload the first time.
The second is described by the dealer as a late 17th C. Shotley Bridge Smallsword with 'TLE xx on one side and Bridg xx on the other plus a running fox; see image.
Sorry the resolution is poor but it's a bushy tailed fox.

Hmm, and not a hollow sword grind but rather a hexagonal cross section.. ;)

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman 4th December 2017 05:05 PM

hollow promises
 
Do we think this may be a re-hilting of a cut-down broadsword blade?
Can you tell by observation of the blade?

Hotspur 5th December 2017 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman
Do we think this may be a re-hilting of a cut-down broadsword blade?

No

Quote:

Can you tell by observation of the blade?
Yes

urbanspaceman 5th December 2017 08:57 PM

Ah So!
 
So, we have an image of a genuine SB small-sword then: surely a rarity.
Has anyone else ever seen such a thing?

urbanspaceman 14th December 2017 09:19 AM

intermission
 
Paused for holidays.

Maddison 14th April 2018 09:01 AM

Shotley Bridge
 
Good Morning All, I have come across this discussion while searching for / trying to find any swords made at Shotley Bridge. I recently bought the site of the former mill and I am in the process of rebuilding the mill on the back of the Mill Race Cottage and a small cottage on the bridge. I would love a sword and some history for the walls of the cottage. I can see lots of recommendations for book which I will purchase. I am totally new to swords what is the likely hood I will find one I could buy? @Urbanspace if you wish to come down to the site please do let me know and I can arrange a visit.

fernando 14th April 2018 11:58 AM

Welcome to the forum, Maddison :) .
Let us see if urbanspaceman has already ended his holidays ;) .
... Or others that may help you finding the right sword :cool: .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 18th January 2019 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddison
Good Morning All, I have come across this discussion while searching for / trying to find any swords made at Shotley Bridge. I recently bought the site of the former mill and I am in the process of rebuilding the mill on the back of the Mill Race Cottage and a small cottage on the bridge. I would love a sword and some history for the walls of the cottage. I can see lots of recommendations for book which I will purchase. I am totally new to swords what is the likely hood I will find one I could buy? @Urbanspace if you wish to come down to the site please do let me know and I can arrange a visit.


Hello Mr Maddison and greetings … I believe your ancestor was the famous gentleman who was unfortunately caught having ridden his horse as far as about Edmundbyers but was caught by troopers in pursuit... His rather tragic story is very much part of traditional memory in Shotley Bridge thus you are very much part of the amazing story of there. It is interesting that you are building a house in the shadow of the Derwent not a stones throw from the Sword Makers in Wood Street. I hope you are well and just now I will speak to Keith who has been looking at German swordmakers in Solingen etc and apologies for not getting on line here sooner as I have been away.

Jim McDougall 18th January 2019 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur
Hmm, and not a hollow sword grind but rather a hexagonal cross section.. ;)

Cheers

GC


Well it has indeed been a LOOOOONG intermission :) but hope we can get back to this great discussion. What it great is that Keith, Ibrahiim and Mr, Madisson (I hope he comes back) are natives to these very areas of Shotley, and while obviously very long ago, its fascinating to have the present day contexts added.

As GC has noted on this 'Shotley Bridge' smallsword the blade is indeed hexagonally sectioned rather than 'hollow ground. The figure on the blade is the 'bushy tail fox' rather than the running wolf typically presumed on blades from Shotley.
The hexagon section in of the style produced typically in Solingen in the 18th c. if I understand correctly, but the BTF (bushy tail fox) is from strictly Birmingham use. Perhaps this blade was imported from Solingen (as many were) into Birmingham, but the BTF was it seems placed by the makers in Birmingham (Samuel Harvey and Dawes) but I believe on their own blades.
It would seem this sword was hilted by local artisans, but why purported to be Shotley is unclear. Obviously the value to collectors would increase with the Shotley attribution.

Good to see this thread back 'on gear', and look forward to continuing this look into British sword and blade production on 17th-18th c. This is a sword 'mystery' seldom deeply attended in references, so looking forward to contributions from others with these interests as well as more from GC and Mr. Madisson.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 15th February 2019 11:09 AM

:shrug:

urbanspaceman 15th February 2019 10:41 PM

return of the prodigal
 
As may easily be discerned, I have been away a long time, but my research into The Shotley Bridge Swordmakers has continued apace, albeit with a three month hiatus beginning last November.
I have accumulated a vast amount of research material, and reached several contentious conclusions regarding the SB story as told over the last 300 years or more.
I probably have BBC4 on board with regard to a documentary; although you never can tell for sure with Aunty.
I have still got a lot of research to do - in particular in Solingen - and some of it will require a professional researcher to achieve some degree of irrefutable evidence; again, the Beeb may be of use here, but I also have two or three eminent individuals in the pipeline waiting for my resurgence.
As I am setting off on further travels soon, I doubt I will have much to offer this thread for the next few weeks or more. However, my final travels will be to Klingenthal and Solingen, then London and hopefully on return the final pieces of the jigsaw will be put in place.
The Royal Armoury publications division are interested in the book when it is ready and again, hopefully, they may be able to assist me in various vague areas.
One of the most trying issues regarding SB swords is that apart from the initial output that were actually inscribed with the place name there is - to date - no way of determining what is an SB blade and what isn't. Tang markings may well prove illuminating but getting the funding to scan museum items may well prove a bit difficult... but not impossible - especially if the BBC comes on-board. Watch this space folks.

laurenbrown90uk 8th June 2020 10:21 PM

Sorry to jump on a old thread but it's been lovely to read. I'm keen to talk to you all and hopefully learn about my family. Adam oley who came from Germany is my 7x great grandfather. I'm doing alot of work on my family tree and find it all fascinating. I'm hoping to be able to learn more about them. I hope this is OK to post. I read a legend about the sword battle and was wondering if anyone knows more about the legend. Some say it was a William oley, some say a Robert oley. The only robert oley I can find evidence for is my 5x great grandfather. He was son of John oley who was son of the Adam ey who came from Germany. Thanks for.Reading

urbanspaceman 26th June 2020 08:29 PM

response
 
Hi. Lauren I sent you a private message with my email address so I could help you with your Oley search but you did not respond or did not receive.
Let me know if you wish to commune.

Peter Hudson 2nd October 2023 11:43 PM

This is such an important thread....
 
Hi Kieth ... Before you started to unpack the details of this work Forum had nothing in its archives about this subject. The Swordmakers of Shotley Bridge turns out to be a cornerstone and key to the development of English Swords. Long may it continue to amaze and impress readers and followers of this fine work.

Its time we got together again for lunch at the Crown and Crossed Swords...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson 3rd October 2023 05:45 PM

German Sword-Smiths in Shotley Bridge By Keith Fisher


To refresh readers on Keiths amazing book on this important Swordmaker

please see https://shotleybridgevillagetrust.co...hotley-bridge/

This is a free illustration of this key sword maker at your fingertips...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson 4th November 2023 01:34 PM

The stone lintel above number 44 Wood Street.
 
Keith, As you know the lintel above 44 WOOD STREET vanished in the late 50s with the demolition of all the industrial /swordmakers houses. My question is that the inscription above the door mentioned a date of 1591 and fortunately you have that in your book. Was this an important date? or is it a Psalm. i.e. the 91st Psalm? 15.91

Regards Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson 4th November 2023 01:44 PM

Other building now vanished near The Crown and Crossed Swords.
 
Yesterday we spoke about other buildings near The Crown and Crossed Swords.

As you know this was two buildings notably The Crown and Crossed Swords originally called The Swords and the next door Commercial Hotel.

There were a few other some quite substantial dwellings between the car park and the narrower road (in those earlier days) which were overlooking the Bridge Inn ..These were quite substantial houses and would have given the feeling of a centre village format more like a village square. I have a couple of pictures to illustrate that but the system isnt playing... so I will try a web reference... .

urbanspaceman 4th November 2023 01:47 PM

Lintel date
 
Hi Peter. The only foto we have of the lintel is very poor and the 6 looks like a 5.
It was 1691 when the building was dedicated.
There was another lintel recorded prior to it being lost and that includes a quote from Psalms:

DEUTSCHLAND IST UNEVER VATTERLANDS
SOLINGEN IST DIE STADT VERLASSEN
HERR BEHUT DEINEN AUSGANG
UND EINGANG

GERMANY IS OUR FATHERLAND
SOLINGEN IS THE TOWN FORSAKEN
LORD PROTECT YOUR ENTRY
AND EXIT

"The last line is taken from Psalm 121, verse 8:"
"The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in
from this time forth and even for evermore."

urbanspaceman 4th November 2023 01:51 PM

pictures
 
That is a very welcome issue.
I look forward to seeing those fotos.

Peter Hudson 4th November 2023 02:35 PM

1691
 
Ah yes I see it on page77 of your book... Got that... The date of first Cutlers Hall dedicated by Adam Oley in Wood Street.. Thanks...

I cannot upload the pictures but you have it also outlined relating to the variety of names applied to The Crown and Crossed Swords and the next door Commercial Inn at page 78 of your book. At some point it became Commercial Hotel....Those buildings near the carpark are all disappeared now and the shops in the village centre have changed hands several times... I agree that the Wilsons shop was a hardware shop..and you know my views on the real reason that I reckon the Germans chose the Shotley Bridge location and unrelated to any of the previous theories. If they could have fitted a moat and searchlights around it Im sure they would have done so..

Peter Hudson 4th November 2023 03:19 PM

Commercial Hotel.

Please see https://shotleybridgevillagetrust.co...-carousel-4439

Other detail on this site are in my view incorrect as the new sign above the door was fitted at about 8am as I was standing outside waiting for the works bus to go to the new reservoir...in 1964 ..summer holiday job. That sign comprised a fairly lumpy and horrible crossed sword arrangement which is still there! Next door was the Crossed Swords... given the name The Crown and Crossed Swords.... at some stage. Opposite was The Kings Head on the Durham side of the Derwent which used to be called The Bridge End...

Peter Hudson

Peter Hudson 6th November 2023 08:34 PM

New Museum opening soon....
 
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 231517
From a museum in Hawick in the Scottish Borders which will be an absolute must to visit when it opens in the new year. The Curator is Mr Brian Moffat an expert in all things Border Reivers...and a member of this Forum. Illustrated here are Swords of Shotley Bridge thus indicating probable strong links as Jacobite swords entering the Culloden sphere pre 1746.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman 6th November 2023 09:33 PM

Holles et al.
 
1 Attachment(s)
The above sword was forged in Shotley Bridge by Adam Oligh for John Holles.
Although a staunch royalist, Holles was a devoted Protestant and supported Danby when he held York for Prince William during the Glorious Revolution in 1688.
His father-in-law had left all the Newcastle estates to Holles but not the title until 1694 when he became Duke of Newcastle.
Whether the swords were made for his militia in 1688 or after 1694 is not known, but regardless they were Shotley Bridge blades; I personally think the latter.
Lord Gort of Hamsterly Hall (adjacent to Shotley Bridge) collected several swords made in the village: the smuggled blades with the Passau Wolf remain in storage at the Laing Art Gallery (see image) but that back-sword (along with another) with only the script ,stayed with the descendants of Lord Gort who was, incidentally, younger brother of WW1 Victoria Cross hero Viscount Gort (John Vereker).

urbanspaceman 6th November 2023 09:55 PM

Holles Back-sword
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a Holles back-sword from the Laing.

Peter Hudson 6th November 2023 11:02 PM

Laing Art Gallery...
 
I see that Thomas Bewick has much work at the Laing. He was apprenticed to shotley sword makers and much involved in illustrations and engraving/ decorationon blades etc.

I have no proof at all that he was instrumental at bringing the emblem of the Running Fox ...we sometimes call the Bushytail Fox to the swords of Shotley Bridge ...except that he was probably the finest illustrator of wild animals in this country and was the source of many vast works on the subject.

Bewick also pointed to the fact that many retired sailors and soldiers took their knicknames from those various wild animals ...like Hawk, Wolf, Raven, Fox etc...

He wrote: A History of British Birds, A Conspiracy of Ravens: A Compendium of Collective Nouns for Birds, Uit de Hooglanden - Zes Schotse Fantastische Vertellingen, Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A Memoir of Thomas Bewick, Written by Himself. a New Ed., Prefaced and Annotated by Austin Dobson, My Life, The Fox at the Manger, Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A History of British Birds: Water Birds

My favourite is Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A Memoir of Thomas Bewick, Written by Himself. Chapter iv
states that he etched sword blades for W and N Oley at Shotley Bridge.

Regards Peter Hudson.

Brian Moffatt 7th November 2023 07:02 PM

I once owned a longcase clock with a dial painted with birds by Bewick... but at the time I didn't realise it...
The backplate of the movement was cast with the name Beilby.. (more famous for glass enamelling.... and Bewick turned out to be his dial painter.

I swapped it with a friend for a Japanese bronze eagle... then found out about the Bewick connection ... I phoned him immediately but he had swopped it again.. and who knows where it ended up.

With regard to Holles and the Jacobites.... It is strongly suspected that Shotley was supplying the Jacobites...?

And... now this is now't more than speculation... but the easy way to cover up such a practice was simply to overproduce on a contract.. and pass the overrun on to whoever it suites...And for instance... the Governor of Tynemouth Castle was suspected of supporting the "Cause."
That practice still goes on today... "a little bit left over from a job."
Nothing changes...

urbanspaceman 7th November 2023 08:50 PM

Bewick
 
1 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=Peter Hudson;285862]
My favourite is Memorial Edition of Thomas Bewick's Works: A Memoir of Thomas Bewick, Written by Himself. Chapter iv
states that he etched sword blades for W and N Oley at Shotley Bridge.

Hi Peter. I also have that book... my only Bewick book.
It was Bewick's first job as an apprentice to the Beilbys; they were the company/family who presented the Oleys with the infamous glass that was on display in the entrance of Wilkinson Sword's factory up here, then the MD took it to the Joicey Museum to accompany the permanent exhibition of the SB enterprise AND DROPPED IT!
Bewick was etching and engraving in the same year as the glass was presented i.e. 1767.
I think the Beilbys meant the glass to celebrate a century of sword production and got the date wrong.
I also suspect there was a hiatus in the Wilsons' bloodline, as they did all the engraving and etching (and hilting) both before and after. Actually, they were doing all that work for Bertram's output before the Germans arrived in 1687.

Peter Hudson 8th November 2023 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Moffatt (Post 285884)
I once owned a longcase clock with a dial painted with birds by Bewick... but at the time I didn't realise it...
The backplate of the movement was cast with the name Beilby.. (more famous for glass enamelling.... and Bewick turned out to be his dial painter.

I swapped it with a friend for a Japanese bronze eagle... then found out about the Bewick connection ... I phoned him immediately but he had swopped it again.. and who knows where it ended up.

With regard to Holles and the Jacobites.... It is strongly suspected that Shotley was supplying the Jacobites...?

And... now this is now't more than speculation... but the easy way to cover up such a practice was simply to overproduce on a contract.. and pass the overrun on to whoever it suites...And for instance... the Governor of Tynemouth Castle was suspected of supporting the "Cause."
That practice still goes on today... "a little bit left over from a job."
Nothing changes...

Dear Brian, Indeed the Beilby/ Bewick stable created a great number of works on wildlife including portfolios on Birds and other animals . The subject that I looked at was the book on Quadrupeds which included The Fox. Of course this rang a very loud bell since the Running Fox interested me as the emblem on Shotley Bridge Sword blades.

I think there must have been swords squeaking out and into Jacobite hands
as Shotley Bridge was well placed to do so; secretly across the Derwent and on up to Scotland ...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman 8th November 2023 11:36 PM

Bushy Tailed Fox
 
2 Attachment(s)
As attractive as it is to associate Thomas Bewick with Oley's Bushy Tailed Fox, I'm afraid the first known incarnation (see lower pic) dates to the end of the 1600s; and the ubiquitous stylised version (which is certainly worthy of Bewick) begins in the 1740s when Bewick hadn't been born. His association with the Oleys was in 1767.

There is no question that the Jacobites were supplied by the SB endeavour. I have even begun to wonder if Harmon Mohll was not already smuggling in blades before Oley and his team arrived; it would certainly cement the desirability in everyone's imagination as to the suitability of the Derwent River location, but this is just my fanciful conjecture.
The 48 bundles of blades seized in 1703 when Mohll was arrested at the mouth of the Tyne were definitely destined for Jacobites... probably Blackett. Queen Anne confiscated them after Mohll was released.
Incidentally, Queen Anne herself was a Jacobite and wanted the crown to pass to the Old Pretender (who would have been James III) on her death.

urbanspaceman 8th November 2023 11:46 PM

Glass
 
Just for reference purposes: the glass was enamelled by Mary Beilby.
The inscription reads:
SUCCESS TO THE SWORDMAKERS on one side, and:
O
W A
1767
on the other side, which stands for OLEY - WILLIAM - ANNE.

Brian Moffatt 9th November 2023 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson (Post 285923)
Dear Brian, Indeed the Beilby/ Bewick stable created a great number of works on wildlife including portfolios on Birds and other animals . The subject that I looked at was the book on Quadrupeds which included The Fox. Of course this rang a very loud bell since the Running Fox interested me as the emblem on Shotley Bridge Sword blades.

I think there must have been swords squeaking out and into Jacobite hands
as Shotley Bridge was well placed to do so; secretly across the Derwent and on up to Scotland ...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Hello Peter,
I've added new photo's of the "Gort" halberd to my posting.. the inscription is now more visible but still just as enigmatic.
I'll get round to the other two eventually... but pressure of work means that they will have to stay on the back burner for a while, since getting the Museum up and running has to take priority if we are to get it off the ground by early next year...

My own take on all of the the Shotley business, would be to find out a great deal more about Mr Bertram his products, and his connections....

If anyone comes across a certain Gilbert Charlton MacDonald at Shotley Bridge post 1745.. I would be much obliged if they could let me know... since he is a Great Great whatever of mine on my Mothers side...
I saw him described as a "Shingler" at Shotley Bridge years back but lost the reference in the depths of an old computer and and simply cannot find it again!
Shinglers, I believe, pounded the "Iron" to remove slag inclusions....
His presence at Shotley is a long story way outside the scope of this forum, but it does involve the '45 and escape from hanging ...Etc!
The "Charlton" was picked up from the Charltons of Hesleyside....
Cheers,
Brian.

urbanspaceman 9th November 2023 02:58 PM

Bertram
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Brian. Hope you haven't dropped any glass on your foot/feet.
I know you are too busy to start reading my book but I will send you a copy anyway as amongst other questions you have asked there are details/answers of the Bertram saga.
Pretty much everything that can be known about this remarkable family is in my book... obviously, because along with the Vintons we see the true beginnings of the Shotley Bridge endeavour - many years before Johannes Dell and his mates arrived in 1685.
Just a teaser: his name was actually Berhtraban which is old High German; he was born and raised in Remscheid, which was the iron and steel working area of the Wupper Valley.
His output from his Derwent Valley forge(s): Allensford, Blackhall and Derwentcote, was known as 'Newcastle Steel' and was universally acknowledged as the world's finest. (see picture)
Incidentally, the use of the word 'shear' in describing steel derives from the Yorkshire textile industry's use for cutting-tool standards.

Brian Moffatt 9th November 2023 09:33 PM

Aye Keith...
So I should start looking for "Bertram era" swords on my travels....?
Be interesting to try and work out the blade construction...

Do they have anything to do with the Bertrams up by Ford?
Always thought of that branch as "reiving stock" with that "Richard Nixon" look that characterises the Armstrongs.
Mate of mine from my London days....long lost touch with, was one of those Bertrams...

Amazing how these genes pass down.. often folk wonder how I guess their surnames just by looking at them... Fosters in particular....
Sorry... I'm rambling..still got the dreaded "brain (Brian) fog" post Covid.
All the Best,
Brian


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