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-   -   Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6923)

VVV 27th August 2008 05:50 PM

Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda?
 
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Here is an old Sumatran keris where the hilt is more twisted than usual, reminding me about the Malay Peninsular Anak Ayam Sejuk.
As you can see this carver never heard about the explanation that the face of the Javanese with fever is below the tanjak-headdress, to recap an old discussion.
What do you think?

Michael

Marcokeris 27th August 2008 08:46 PM

Sorry Michael
What is the meaning of Anak Ayam Seyuk :confused:
and...tanjak :confused:
The hit is (IMO) a very nice sumatran hilt ....but mendak :) ...is more nice :eek:

VVV 27th August 2008 08:58 PM

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Sorry if I was a bit unclear.
The Anak Ayam Sejuk hilt is aka the Pipit Teleng (picture below).
The tanjak is a head-dress.

Here is the old discussion I was referring to

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001449.html

Michael

asomotif 27th August 2008 10:11 PM

Quote:
nice sumatran hilt ....but mendak ...is more nice


:confused: :rolleyes:
I am afraid the whole keris is a nice one ;)

The hilt is in a pretty upright position indeed.
And the arm wrapped around the body.
Very nice hilt, but indeed a bit odd for a Jawa deman style. :confused:
If you want to part with it, just send me a PM :D :D :D

PenangsangII 28th August 2008 03:31 AM

maybe this hilt can be called hulu nem neman, carved by an artist with a free mind, thus not restricted to pakem hulu. Just a thought....

VVV 28th August 2008 05:01 PM

Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael

Marcokeris 28th August 2008 08:06 PM

IMO from the picture i can see a nice Garuda sumatran hilt: not very very old but surely old! (more than fifty). The quality of hard (but not heavy...i suppose) strong wood is absolutely nice! The quality of work is good too. In my collector's hits experience is not so difficult to find a hilt like this but...I don't have a Mendak like this :D (maybe because in Bali or in Yogya is rather easy to find old sumatran hits...but is really difficult for me to find nice sumatran mendak alone (without a blade under and a hit above).

VVV 28th August 2008 08:30 PM

Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak :D

Michael

Marcokeris 28th August 2008 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Marco,

Maybe my pictures decieve you but I know for sure that this hilt already had quite some age 77 years ago.
I haven't seen that many resembling hilts, f.i. leaning sideways as much as this, when I am looking in European museum picture archives, books and private collections over here?
But I am glad you like the mendak :D

Michael

More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother :)

David 28th August 2008 09:00 PM

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called? :shrug: :)

VVV 28th August 2008 09:56 PM

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Look forward to your pictures, Marco.
I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C.

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Michael

David 29th August 2008 01:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Well yes, we do all know what you mean. Still, there is a habit within the keris community to just use Javanese terms regardless of the origin of the keris which i think in the end is not the best idea. Often just an English word will suffice (ie. sheath for wrongko or sarong), but some part require more specific terms. I ask this question in the hopes of expanding our knowledge base. We all know what you mean using mendak here, but i must assume that there is a proper name for this part and i suspect that someone out there knows it. Just because we understand each other doesn't mean we should not strive for correctness. :)
That being said ....what a beautiful keris you have on the other side of that "mendak"! :D

PenangsangII 29th August 2008 02:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Maybe "nem neman".
But was there a fixed pakem for non-Javanese hilts?

Michael


I dont believe that there is a fixed pakem for non-Jawanese hilts, but generally speaking the hilts are identifyable whether it is pipit teleng, patah tiga, kerdas, penghulu etc etc. IMHO, your hilt is stylized from palembang's balu mekabun.

VVV 29th August 2008 07:03 AM

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Thanks Penangsang,

Maybe it's still a bit unclear from my first pictures why I think it reminded me, regarding the leaning angle, about the Malay "chicken"-hilt. I hope these pictures makes it more visible.

Michael

PS The Palembang JD-hilt used as a comparison is the regular-sized, not the small, version.

PenangsangII 29th August 2008 10:10 AM

I see what you mean Michael, but the neck is just too tall for a pipit teleng though the resemblance is obvious.

BluErf 29th August 2008 06:21 PM

A masterpiece. All parts of it!

Congratulations, Michael.

For a Minang keris, the variation is so profuse, it doesn't make sense (at least with the current level of understanding) to try to classify them into any archetypal styles. Every village has their own forms, and the carver may just be 'going with the flow'. From the pictures shown, I believe the whole piece would look very balanced and pleasing, with the right proportions.

PenangsangII 30th August 2008 04:43 AM

If it wasnt for the fretworks on the ganja and the ricikan at the dandik & sorsoran, I would have thought the blade was a pandai saras...... :)

Marcokeris 30th August 2008 04:47 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
More than fifty (from a picture)is not far from real. Next Saturday it will take some photos from a twin brother :)

...of course the blade is beautiful (but i didn't have any doubts)

VVV 30th August 2008 05:39 PM

Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...)
Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother.
Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays?

Michael

Lew 30th August 2008 06:07 PM

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Hi Guys

Here is a similar one to Michael's keris.

Lew

Alam Shah 31st August 2008 03:22 AM

ayam teleng and ayam gila...
 
Hi Lew,

your hilt is what termed to be "Anak Ayam Gila", literally translated to be "the crazy little chick". It's an ayam teleng form, but with an added twist, the neck area, the tilt is exaggerated. Both are Terengganu form from Peninsular Malaysia. :)

Compare yours with Michael's post #3 piece. See the difference? ;)

ganjawulung 31st August 2008 05:45 AM

CIREBON Hilts
 
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Just for a little comparison to Michael's and Marco's hilts. These are Cirebon hilts -- with Jawa Demam style. Cirebon located in the northern-west coast of Central Jawa -- this old Islamic kingdom of Cirebon originated from Hindhu Pajajaran Kingdom in West Java...

Ganjawulung

Newsteel 31st August 2008 07:39 AM

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Pak Ganja,
I don't think that your hilt is a Cirebon. That is Sumatran Minang jawa demam. You can see the arms are folding cold and that little protuding ears (like mickey mouse). You do not see Cirebon with that folding arms. The arms (palm) of the Cirebon dewa hilt would go downwards towards his knees.

Minang jawa deman pic.

VVV 31st August 2008 08:16 AM

I agree with Newsteel. The hilt variation of Pak Ganja's has not travelled from Cirebon/Tegal to Sumatra but (maybe in this case?) the other way around. Two of mine of this variation are for instance on Keris Panjang.

Michael

Marcokeris 31st August 2008 06:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Thanks for all comments (Long time Kai Wee...)
Marco, I see what you mean with its twin brother.
Have you seen many like that in Indonesia nowadays?

Michael

No Michael, but i found it in Bali (Kerobokan area) one year ago.
In Balý is rather easy to find all kind of indonesian handles (but bronze from Banjarmasin is very difficult to see) )because the island is full of antik shops ... but also full of buyers!
I think Ganja is right when says that around Cirebon some handles have the same Garuda Sumatra pattern (many times other indonesian people said me the same ) .

VVV 31st August 2008 07:29 PM

Now I am curious because you both claim this.
Are you sure that the hilts are locally produced, not imported?
There was a lot of trade over the strait and quite often you find Sundanese golok in the East part of Sumatra.
Maybe the same for this kind of hilt, the other way around?

Michael

Marcokeris 31st August 2008 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called? :shrug: :)

Sorry mr. David but mr. K.Jensen in the actual Krisdisk calls mendak many sumatran (and Sulawesi) rings with the same motif.

VVV 31st August 2008 09:35 PM

That's because Karsten decided to use Javanese terminology all over, instead of local, to make it less confusing. In this case he would probably call it a selut but as I understood what you meant I didn't care. A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra?

Michael

David 31st August 2008 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=VVV A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? [/QUOTE]
But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"? :)
Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers. :shrug:

Alam Shah 1st September 2008 02:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"? :)
It would be nice but one have lot of research... . Not only on that region but also the period. To me, good to know but not essential. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers. :shrug:
Personally, as long as the message gets accross... it have served its intended purpose.

Sumatra is a large place, with varying tribes with different dialects, a term might differ from one tribe to another. Researching this is a different ball game altogether, unless you're doing a PhD or something and willing to do field research, it would be an uphill task, even if one is willing to do groundwork... yet still, no guarantee. :shrug:


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