Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Frontier Arithmetic: The Afghan Jezail (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25200)

Jim McDougall 7th August 2019 09:02 PM

Frontier Arithmetic: The Afghan Jezail
 
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"....a scrimmage in a border station, a canter down some dark defile;
two thousand pounds of education, drops to a ten rupee jezail".
"Arithmetic on the Frontier"
Rudyard Kipling, 1886

I somehow came across this jezail, in Albuquerque of all places, and have always wanted one after all the years of reading about them here, so I got it.
While it clearly is in the 'tourist' category, and most probably came from the Kuch-e-Morgha (Chicken Street) in Kabul, I would like to think that perhaps it came there from the Khyber regions, and was genuinely fashioned for a Pathan tribesman some time ago.

After reviewing as many images as possible of EIC gun locks, I feel that this is quite possibly a genuine lock from probably a Windus pattern Brown Bess that was acquired in the First Anglo-Afghan war in 1839.
The use of the rampant lion on the lock seems to have begun around 1808, with the date on the tail of the lock.
Both these and the quartered heart with initials of EIC seem to have abound in these Afghan regions ever since, and while they were widely copied, this seems close enough to be authentic.

The gun itself highly embellished in style that was used often authentically by tribesmen, was also of course widely produced as souvenirs, often using authentic locks as refurbished from worn old guns.

The pics are of the one I acquired, said to be .58 cal. smoothbore.

The red backed lock image is of an known authentic example as comparison.

TVV 7th August 2019 09:41 PM

Jim, the barrel on your new acquisition looks promising and could well be dating back to the 19th century. We will wait for you to receive the gun and take better pictures. I cannot comment on the rest.

Teodor

Jim McDougall 8th August 2019 02:54 AM

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Thank you Teodor, I have the gun, I found it in a shop here in Albuquerque. Here is another pic of the barrel. I never realized how long and heavy these things are.

Jim McDougall 8th August 2019 04:50 AM

The "Khyber Rifles"
 
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I have always had a deep interest in history, and much of it certainly prompted by literature and movies (as a youngster one was not especially aware of 'accuracy'). One movie which deeply intrigued me was "King of the Khyber Rifles" (1953) with Tyrone Power.
In later years, and more aware of accuracy and inspirations, I learned that the movie was inspired by a 1916 book by Talbot Mundy with the same title.

Further, I found that Mundy was inspired by a true story and actual unit in an autobiography of Sir Robert Warburton titled "Eighteen Years in the Khyber" (1900) and about his experiences there 1879-1898.

I learned later after much research and letters to many sources that the Khyber Rifles were a paramilitary unit begun in the 1880s as the "Khyber Jezalichis" with Afridi tribesmen. They were attached to British regiments in campaigns and soon went from their jezails to Snider Enfield, then Martini-Henry rifles.

These were my first exposures to these fascinating jezail rifles, and I find the history of them, from the notable tribal use described by Kipling; the accounts by Warburton; the book by Mundy and even the movie, colorful and exciting.

I know we have discussed these many times over the years, but I would really like to discuss them further here, and to see more of the examples you guys have out there.

One thing that I find very intriguing is the constant use and reuse of the British locks of the EIC. I think it would be interesting to put together an overview of these locks and the examples they appear in, with details on the probable time lines; for example, those with the quartered heart, the lion, and those with names and dates.

Kubur 8th August 2019 07:35 AM

Hi Jim,
These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative.
Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal.
I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.

kahnjar1 8th August 2019 10:50 AM

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Hi Jim,
Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way.....
Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan?
I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP.
Pics of a couple of my Jezails.
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan.
A couple of pics of these guns attached also.
Stu

Richard G 8th August 2019 12:07 PM

Jim,
Whether or not your lock is original EIC is difficult to say from the photo's. The main components look as if they could be; but if so it has definitely suffered some local tinkering in that all the screws would appear to be replacements.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall 8th August 2019 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Jim,
These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative.
Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal.
I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.

Thank you Kubur, Stu and Richard! I really appreciate this input as I know you guys are well seasoned in the collecting and study of these.

I have had doubts about the lock as well, but in comparing it to some of the examples known authentic it is remarkably well done if indeed a copy. As far as I have known the Afghan copies have never been that faithfully copied, only rendered interpretations. All of the screw positions etc. seem to line up, and the 'work' in adding this lock appears to use similar technique and even hardware to other Afghan components. While the profiled outlining on the perimeters of the lock seem slightly crude in joins, it seems most Afghan examples dont even bother with this detail.
These are just my estimations based on research to get up to speed as I cannot claim any great experience or knowledge on these.

Thank you for the historic and geographic insights as well Stu, and important to note how in flux these boundaries have been.

Stu,thank you for the great examples you posted! Those are beauties, and these guns are incredibly attractive. I take it the Sind examples have a long slender neck (or wrist?) on the stock.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 9th August 2019 05:32 PM

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Hi Jim, Another great subject very nicely placed so people can add their take on the subject.. Looking purely at the weapons I made a few observations noting a number of different locks from far and wide. This gun seems to have a few different names including camel gun and the Jezail or Jezzail seems dominant ...although there also seem to be different types some with the very hooked butt and others more straight... I have a few pictures here ~

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 9th August 2019 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Hi Jim,
Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way.....
Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan?
I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP.
Pics of a couple of my Jezails.
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan.
A couple of pics of these guns attached also.
Stu


That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Jim McDougall 9th August 2019 05:53 PM

Ibrahiim I'm so glad you came in on this!! and great photo images, thank you.
As one of few people I know who have actually been in Kabul and seen 'Chicken Street', I value your insights here.

As you note, these jezails (et al) I have hoped to focus here with the diverse experience and knowledge over many years here, and put together as much comprehensive material as possible to better identify them.

I am trying to gather as much as I can on the locks, which seem to be one of the key components in these, and determine the variations of EIC markings and names etc. From these, it would be good to compare spuriously produced Afghan examples.

Thank you for the input!!!

Kubur 9th August 2019 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Warriors for sure

but
most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Is true or was it a British colonialist propaganda???

like the stories about the fuzzy fuzzy in Sudan or the Zulu in South Africa

more your ennemies look dangerous more your victories look greater...

:shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 9th August 2019 07:55 PM

:)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 9th August 2019 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
Warriors for sure

but
most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Is true or was it a British colonialist propaganda???

like the stories about the fuzzy fuzzy in Sudan or the Zulu in South Africa

more your ennemies look dangerous more your victories look greater...

:shrug:

Please see http://www.travelbooksonline.com/asi...age1_1000.html

Well arguably... In a brilliant travelog I read he appears from about page 54 where he is described as Quote" His Highness Mir Khudadad, Khan of Kelat, is about sixty years old. He would be tall were it not for a decided stoop, which, together with a toothless lower jaw, gives him the appearance of being considerably more than his age. His complexion is very dark, even for a Baluch, and he wears a rusty black beard and moustaches, presumably dyed, from the streaks of red and white that run through them, and long, coarse pepper-and-salt locks streaming far below his shoulders. His personal appearance gave me anything but a favourable impression. The Khan has a scowling expression, keen, piercing black eyes, and a sharp hooked nose that reminded one forcibly of Cruikshank's picture of Fagin the Jew in "Oliver Twist." Unquote.

His story goes...ASLAMO ALAIKOOM. I'M MIR KHUDADAD KHAN. I'M THE KHAN OF KALAT. I WAS THE LAST KHAN TO HAVE ANY REAL AUTHORITY. I ASCENDED TO THE THRONE, IN 1857, WHEN I WAS A MERE BOY OF 10 ( CORRECTION: was 17). THOSE WERE TROUBLED TIMES, WITH MOST OF MY SARDARS OPENLY FLAUNTING MY AUTHORITY; AND THE BRITISH HOVERING IN AND AROUND MY LANDS. THEY WERE QUICK, TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS SITUATION. ON ONE HAND WAS THE FULL MIGHT OF THE BRITISH ARMS AND ON THE OTHER, THE STRANGE INTRANSIGENCE OF MY OWN SARDARS. THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION FOR ME, BUT TO AGREE TO A HUMILIATING AGREEMENT, WITH THE BRITISH, IN 1876. AN AGREEMENT I HATED, FROM THE CORE OF MY HEART. BY IT, THE BRITISH GAINED GREATER INFLUENCE IN LARGE PARTS OF MY KHANATE. I ONLY AGREED, BECAUSE NOT DOING SO MEANT THE END OF MY KHANATE, AS IT WAS. AND IT'S DISINTEGRATION INTO PETTY FIEFDOMS. I AGREED, SO THAT, WHEN SITUATION WAS MORE FAVORABLE , TO REVOKE IT. IN 1877, I EVEN ATTENDED THE "IMPERIAL ASSEMBLAGE" DARBAR AT DELHI, WERE QUEEN VICTORIA, WAS PROCLAIMED THE EMPRESS OF INDIA. I HATED THE INCREASING INFLUENCE OF THE BRITISH IN MY LANDS. THEY HATED MY INDEPENDENT NATURE. A TIME CAME IN 1893, WHEN, ON ALLEGATIONS OF KILLING MY OWN PRIME MINISTER AND OF WANTON CRUELTY, I WAS DEPOSED AND IN MY PLACE, MY YOUNGER BROTHER MIR MAHMOOD KHAN, WAS MADE THE NEW KHAN. I REIGNED FOR ABOUT 36 YEARS. I WAS CONFINED AT PISHIN TILL MY DEATH 21st May 1907. There are a couple of slide shows on Utube from which I took the passage above ...Indicating the somewhat lack of trust he reflected arguably indicating the general view that he could be a bit violent …

Returning to the weapons situation please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Baluch where guns and swords are displayed variously.

kronckew 9th August 2019 08:09 PM

The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 9th August 2019 08:53 PM

The Jezail.


To fully return to the weapon Please See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-aEWZrTibE

An excellent couple of points are brought out on calibres of these weapons and wear proving the age of originals opposed to newly made examples often seen in souks in Afghanistan today.

David R 9th August 2019 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew
The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

Not so much an insult, more a semi- affectionate description. If you want to see insults, look up what 19th C squaddies called their officers.

Jim McDougall 9th August 2019 10:47 PM

Interesting notes on some of the figures in these regions in Afghanistan of the period, and it is understandable that emotions and perspectives run deep, especially as warfare and combative situations leave deep scars. I have not been nor served in Afghanistan, but I have a son in law; son and grandson who have, and I know Ibrahiim has.

With that I was even a bit apprehensive in sharing the gun I acquired with them, but keeping objective and toward the unique nature and character of the weapon itself has been the primary outcome, so hoping to maintain that.

Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

Kubur 9th August 2019 10:54 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

Of course, first i think your lock is an Afghan copy decorative or not i don't know.
Second i think Elgood mentionned somewhere that British had a factory in Persia and then many locks are English made in Iran...
It would explain the quantities found in Afganistan.

Jim McDougall 9th August 2019 11:31 PM

Thank you Kubur! and I am inclined to agree, my example does appear to be an Afghan copy, it is not nearly as well executed as the example in the photo (with red background) which is deemed an authentic British lock.
I very much appreciate you sharing this page from Elgood, which I do not have with me presently.
Interesting that the British had manufacturing involvement in Iran, just as they did in Afghanistan with the Machin Khana in Kabul. At the Kabul factory though they did not produce spuriously marked locks etc and the factory had their own use of the Afghan royal stamp.

The spuriously marked locks seem to have come from the independent tribal artisans in Khyber locations such as Darra Khel and others.

Victrix 9th August 2019 11:39 PM

Interesting rifle Jim! These Jezails are quite exotic and were produced all over I think. And many parts were likely replaced during their lifetime.

I found this article useful when researching my jezail: http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm

kahnjar1 10th August 2019 07:41 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

The caption to that pic describes the tribesmen as Balochs and dated as 1879.
Another print/woodcut herewith, presumably earlier as the guns appear to be matchlocks.
Stu

kahnjar1 10th August 2019 10:14 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
Of course, first i think your lock is an Afghan copy decorative or not i don't know.
Second i think Elgood mentionned somewhere that British had a factory in Persia and then many locks are English made in Iran...
It would explain the quantities found in Afganistan.

Here is the full section relating to EIC guns made in Tabriz.(From Firearms of the Islamic World in the Tareq Museum Kuwait by Elgood).
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Tabriz was not the only place in Persia where these guns were made, but can not remember where I read it.
Also an Afghan pistol which is locally made. I do not wish to detract or confuse the current theme of this thread, so it is only posted for interest only and not for comment.
Stu

kahnjar1 10th August 2019 10:27 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Interesting notes on some of the figures in these regions in Afghanistan of the period, and it is understandable that emotions and perspectives run deep, especially as warfare and combative situations leave deep scars. I have not been nor served in Afghanistan, but I have a son in law; son and grandson who have, and I know Ibrahiim has.

With that I was even a bit apprehensive in sharing the gun I acquired with them, but keeping objective and toward the unique nature and character of the weapon itself has been the primary outcome, so hoping to maintain that.

Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

Hi Jim,
Here are pics of the lock of the second jezail shown in my pics. This gun has no trigger guard (as made) and the lock bears the heart shaped bale mark of the EIC, but not the rampant lion. I would class this lock as "genuine" as the lock parts are fixed with screws rather than peened. When I get a moment I will post pics of the other locks.
Stu

Kubur 10th August 2019 11:23 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan.
Stu

I think you did, it's what i call a digression...
:) BTW amazing collection!

The so-called sindhi muskets are in fact Balutchi
I would like to see a sindhi with a sindhi gun...

To come back to Jim's musket
They are Pashtun, from the North Khyber pass...

Jim McDougall 10th August 2019 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix
Interesting rifle Jim! These Jezails are quite exotic and were produced all over I think. And many parts were likely replaced during their lifetime.

I found this article useful when researching my jezail: http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm


Thank you so much for the kind note !!! :)
These truly are exotic and attractive, and it does seem they were often reworked and had very long working lives. I honestly wish I could display it, but the bookmobile has little space for such mounting.

The link you have added is an absolutely fascinating and wonderful article which goes exactly in the direction I have hoped to lead this thread.....perfect addition :)
I have made many notes over the years on East India Co. gunlocks, mostly from research on the bale marks of the Company, and had some interesting communication with David Harding back when he was completing his volumes "Small Arms of the East India Company 1600-1856" (1999).
I sure wish I would have gotten a copy then (three volumes at first, another later).

It seems there have been other articles which show how to recognize Afghan copies from originals, but still searching.

Jim McDougall 10th August 2019 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Hi Jim,
Here are pics of the lock of the second jezail shown in my pics. This gun has no trigger guard (as made) and the lock bears the heart shaped bale mark of the EIC, but not the rampant lion.
When I get a moment I will post pics of the other locks.
Stu


Excellent Stu!!! That is exactly what I am trying to gather here, close ups and detail on these locks.
It seems the rampant lion came in around 1808 with the EIC but as always exact dates are unclear.

The EIC heart seen in your example here has rather than the quartered heart, what is known as the 'flaunched' heart, which has curved lines rather than quarters.
I had always thought that the VEIC stood for Venerable East India Co.
but I learned from David Harding that it was actually United East India Company (or to that effect as the 'U' was seen as a 'V' in those days).

It is amazing to me, and pretty exciting, that the Afghans so thoroughly copied these British markings from the many Brown Bess they obtained during the long years of campaigns in these rugged and vast regions.

Thanks very much for the great examples you are adding here.
Also again for the notes on the Sindhi (Baluch) versions of these guns.

It is my impression that it is hard to accurately define these as from Sind or Baluchistan as not only are these areas unclearly defined geographically, but the tribal diffusions are complicated. Simply more that makes the study of the arms of these regions so fascinating.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 10th August 2019 03:24 PM

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Just to add to the map equation where Baluchistan is shown as one entity which would be somewhat dissolved in the aftermath of the forming of Pakistan and where the western border of Baluchistan then straddled the Persian border so now it is quarter in Persia and three quarters in Pakistan.. Politics to one side; here is the map.

Note.Baluchi tribesman shown (although pictured out of area by the artist simply using a bit of blank map to illustrate them) doing what all tribals in the region did with their Jezails using high positions for defence and plunging fire at long range..

kahnjar1 10th August 2019 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
I think you did, it's what i call a digression...
:) BTW amazing collection!

The so-called sindhi muskets are in fact Balutchi
I would like to see a sindhi with a sindhi gun...

To come back to Jim's musket
They are Pashtun, from the North Khyber pass...

Hi Kubur,
As stated in my earlier post to Jim's thread, the boundries have been much redrawn in later times. If you refer to the old map kindly posted by Ibrahiim, you will see that Baluchistan covered a significant area of what is now southern and eastern Afghanistan, and modern day Pakistan.....so,.... the so called Sindhi gun, whether Baloch or Sindi, can be legitimately included as an Afghan weapon. The tribal link (Pashtun) which you allude to is just that....tribal, which according to the more modern map which you have posted, covers many regions of Afghanistan and not just the Khyber Pass region.
Stu

Victrix 11th August 2019 11:43 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you so much for the kind note !!! :)
These truly are exotic and attractive, and it does seem they were often reworked and had very long working lives. I honestly wish I could display it, but the bookmobile has little space for such mounting.

The link you have added is an absolutely fascinating and wonderful article which goes exactly in the direction I have hoped to lead this thread.....perfect addition :)
I have made many notes over the years on East India Co. gunlocks, mostly from research on the bale marks of the Company, and had some interesting communication with David Harding back when he was completing his volumes "Small Arms of the East India Company 1600-1856" (1999).
I sure wish I would have gotten a copy then (three volumes at first, another later).

It seems there have been other articles which show how to recognize Afghan copies from originals, but still searching.

Glad you liked the article Jim. The last rifle I thought looked rather similar to yours. The EIC flintlocks have a charm of their own I must admit.

Here is another photo of some Afghan tribesmen.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 11th August 2019 05:19 PM

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There are contradictory reports on the supposed advantages and disadvantages of the afghan jezail compared to the brown bess.

It may be remembered that the Jezail was a copy and largely of the brown bess and by almost accident it turned into something of a home made snipers rifle.

There are several reasons why, including the Jezails elongated barrel and its rifled twist as well as its deployment in groups of two and three shooters in the high mountain passes using plunging fire carefully aimed at massed targets struggling to pass below and where counter attack, easy on flatter ground, was impossible among vertical cliffs etc.

Here is another reason for their better marksmanship below... the bipod.

rickystl 11th August 2019 05:24 PM

Hi Jim.

Congratulations. It looks like a nice - and genuine Jazail from the photos. My thoughts:
STOCK: The intricate brass piercing decoration along with the pearl is in a manner much better than a tourist example in my opinion.
BARREL: The long, damascus barrel with traces of gold inlay, heavy breech area, and rear sight arrangement are all typical of the genuine working guns. Even the design of the brass barrel bands are of a style commonly seen on these guns.
LOCK: From the one photo the lock appears to be a genuine EIC lock with the hammer and frizzen screws replaced with pins sometime during it's working life. (This would not be unusual as the Afghan locals seemed to avoid making threaded screws whenever possible. Probably due to a lack of hand dies to make threads. I've seen lock plate screw threads that looked more like early 17th Century versus early 19th Century. While others utilized the lock plate screws directly from the British EIC muskets.)
Close up photos of both the outside and inside of the lock would confirm a genuine EIC lock or a locally made copy. But at the moment, from the somewhat distant photo, it appears to be genuine.

The locally made copies of the EIC locks I've examined vary greatly in quality. Occasionally you will find a copy that functions almost as well as the British original. While others are made so crudely that the locks would likely require constant maintenance/repair. The spurious marks (prancing lion, heart, and date) on the locally made locks run the range of very close to very crude. These spurious marks were probably added by the gunsmith to give a perspective buyer an imaginary added value thinking the lock was of British origin. Likely the local tribesmen could not read/write their own language much less a foreign one. As mentioned, many of the locks were re-used from captured British muskets. But many of the genuine EIC locks were sold/traded to the locals either legitimately or not.
The barrels were made in both rifled and smoothbore variations. While the smoothbores would shoot as far and equal range as the rifled barrels, the ball would start to vere side to side after about 75 yards. So the rifled barrels would be much more accurate, especially at longer ranges. But the smoothbores would be faster to reload and easier to clean. So those were the trade offs. The barrels are typically long and front heavy. The likely anticipation of shooting the gun while resting on the rock cliffs or other type of rest. Some of these guns were even made with adjustable stands built into the forearm of the stock.

I'll post some photos of some of the Jazails and locks I have in my collection.
These Jazails certainly have a colorful history. Harding's books are likely the best reference source for EIC lock markings. But I've never exhibited the courage to cough up the astronomical price for a set - when available. LOL

Rick

kronckew 11th August 2019 06:14 PM

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If you get a chance, watch the movie "Kesari", about the last stand of 21 Sikh warriors against the Pathans. There is a sniper that plagues them with a jezail, and ultimately gets his comeuppance from a brit .Martini-henry. (It's available on Amazon Prime, with english subtitles, included free for prime members) includes 12,000 heavily armed pathans, and lots of musketry. Mostly getting slaughtered. Score: pathans 21, Sikhs around 2-3,000.

kahnjar1 11th August 2019 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix
Glad you liked the article Jim. The last rifle I thought looked rather similar to yours. The EIC flintlocks have a charm of their own I must admit.

Here is another photo of some Afghan tribesmen.

Interesting pic of the time, though obviously posed. The shooters gun is not cocked and the guy below with the matchlock version does not seem too concerned with what is happening around him. A great pic though, and thanks for posting.
Stu

Jim McDougall 11th August 2019 11:44 PM

Ricky, I cannot possibly thank you enough for the wonderfully positive and detailed assessment of my jezail. As I have noted, this was purely serendipity, and actually I was visiting a very prominent and well known gun dealer in Albuquerque. While I ceased collecting years ago, I have always had a little bucket list, and I was looking for an authentic well used Winchester saddle ring carbine.
He had so many guns it was hard to describe, many had come in from estates and collection purchases, and there were countless items not yet cataloged or listed. He was tight on the price for the carbine I chose, and I saw this jezail among a literal pile of them brought back from Afghanistan. For some reason I liked this one and negotiated a package deal.......somehow not only did I get my saddle ring....but this jezail, which I have wanted since the wistful readings I described of some 50 years ago!

I would not dare disassemble it, but have optimistically held the same views you have, that it is likely far to elaborate for a tourist item. Still, that even the guns of tribesmen authentically used end up in the bazarres in Kabul, so this may be one. The touch hole, and other necessary features seem notably functional, and it is indeed smooth bore, .58 cal. according to the dealer.

It is pretty exciting to have luckily found a good example, never really expecting I would ever get one, and the great responses here from you and the guys as I try to learn more about these is great.
Thank you so much again.....and REALLY looking forward to your pics :)

kahnjar1 12th August 2019 06:17 AM

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As promised the lock detail not yet posted of the two other jezails.
The one with MOP decoration similar to yours does not have the RAMPANT lion but has a lion standing on all four feet. The date, if in fact it is one, is in Hindi I think. No doubt someone here will be able to confirm or deny that.
The other (percussion) jezail has no EIC or any other marks, but a string of I.I.I.I.etc. Not sure what that signifies, or maybe it is just part of the decoration. The lock itself looks to me to be a civilian type rather than military.
Stu

Kubur 12th August 2019 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1
The one with MOP decoration similar to yours does not have the RAMPANT lion but has a lion standing on all four feet. The date, if in fact it is one, is in Hindi I think.

Hi Stu
I can see 1272, 1856 and a Persian lion or a copy i don't know...

kahnjar1 12th August 2019 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Stu
I can see 1272, 1856 and a Persian lion or a copy i don't know...

Thanks Kubur.
Are the numerals Hindi? The particular lion is familiar to me but I could not place it. Certainly not EIC though.
Stu

Kubur 12th August 2019 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Thanks Kubur.
Are the numerals Hindi? The particular lion is familiar to me but I could not place it. Certainly not EIC though.
Stu

It's Farsi, Persian numbers (in fact Arabic), the persian calendar is a bit different
so +/-10 years...

Jim McDougall 12th August 2019 07:46 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Stu, thank you!!! These are excellent images, and I think what I like most about these guns is their inherently rugged charm, so appropriate for the tribal warriors of the Khyber and its environs.

The 'standing' lion is of course Persian, and while officially the Lion and Sun of the Pahlavi dynasty of late in Iran, it was of course prevalent in the Qajar dynasty preceding. In Afghanistan, as has been noted, the influences of Persia are profoundly present much as throughout India with the Mughals.
This is an amazing lock, and honestly the first I have seen with the Persian lion. With the previously noted presence of England in Persia and the use of the EIC markings on locks produced there, this is fascinating.

The 'date' on this is in characters I do not recognize, but clearly in imitation of EIC configuration, and it is tempting to consider the Persian Lion and Sun were deliberately placed in lieu of the EIC rampant lion as well.

The percussion lock example is also fascinating and unusual. It will be interesting to find what these 'I' characters added in such a grouping with periods mean. From the obsessive research I have been involved in the past weeks, it seems the percussion locks (of c. 1830s+) were not particularly favored by the tribesmen as obviously, the caps were hard to come by while flints and powder were not.


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