Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Identification help (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25894)

clockwork 14th May 2020 09:40 PM

Identification help
 
5 Attachment(s)
Hi guys long time no post. I just recently picked this up. not sure if it's a fake or real. It seems to be from around WW2 time frame, has Japanese markings but the writing on the blade seems to come from Morocco. Any help on identification is appreciated.

Rick 14th May 2020 10:19 PM

It would be very helpful to see the sword in its entirety. The flowers are not Chrysanthemums which are usually depicted on Japanese weapons. :shrug:

clockwork 14th May 2020 11:30 PM

just added 2 more pics.

kahnjar1 14th May 2020 11:46 PM

Moroccan Gendarmerie
 
Check here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal...can_Gendarmerie
Stu

Battara 15th May 2020 02:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
It would be very helpful to see the sword in its entirety. The flowers are not Chrysanthemums which are usually depicted on Japanese weapons. :shrug:

Yeah - early 20th - WWII Japanese swords often had them. However, these are not typical Japanese style chrysanthemums.

clockwork 15th May 2020 02:32 AM

it's a nice piece just wish i could find out more about it.

Ren Ren 15th May 2020 12:04 PM

May be "Gendarmerie royale khmère du Cambodge"?
https://www.force-publique.net/sour...ambodge-fr.html

Ian 16th May 2020 06:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Very close resemblance to this sword which sold at auction in 2014 (see here). This sword is in a plain steel scabbard (what we can see). Auction details indicate:
Quote:
French Gendarmerie Royale Sword with brass two bar and dish back hilt. Decorated floral back strap. Complete with its steel scabbard with decorative brass ring mounts. Steel blade with remains of GENDARMERIE ROYALE wording. Good overall condition.
Probably not a "fake" IMHO, but hard to say.

.

Ian 16th May 2020 06:24 AM

3 Attachment(s)
And another from a different auction site. Listed as WWII Sino-Japanese War. This one has the same "chrysanthemum" motifs on the scabbard. Basket hilt is different however, and lower quality cast brass on hilt.
.

Ian 16th May 2020 06:48 AM

A third example ...
 
And another one on Worthpoint here. Each of the three examples I've shown were considered the auction sites to be of French manufacture and made during approximately the WWII period. Each site advertised it as an unusual sword. It would seem that the French either made it for other nations or others copied them.

Clockwork, if no further information is forthcoming here, I'll move it over to the European forum where you might get a more detailed response.

Ian.

clockwork 16th May 2020 08:06 AM

Thank you. I suspected it was of FrenchDesign all along. Just was not sure with the flower motifs. Which resemble my Japanese Police sword from around the same period. Google search of the name leaned towards Morocco.

I was also suspect from the similar designs on the other sword which seem to have more providence than this design. In another forum From 10+ years ago it talked about mass produced fakes from China.but was unable to see the pics on it. here is the link. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.20796.html. I hope to find out more and do thank all you.

Battara 16th May 2020 05:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Folks, I would argue with that auction attribution of their example being Japanese. They are confusing their example with the traditional WWII parade and police swords of Japan during that era.

What says "French" to me is not only the blade and the inscription, but this section (circled in red) that I have seen on French made examples:

asomotif 17th May 2020 07:50 PM

I am amazed about the quality of the example in post 8, but in general this sword makes me think of : made in the PRC

They like to combine styles and inscriptions and sell everything as ww2 japanese. just my 2 cents.

Ian 18th May 2020 12:15 AM

Clockwork:

As mentioned above, I'm moving this one over to the European Forum where you might get a clearer answer as to whether this is a French sword or a Chinese creation.

Ian.

Ian 18th May 2020 12:26 AM

Moderator's Comment: Help identifying this sword
 
Gents:

This sword was posted in the Ethnographic Forum for identification. It is of European style, and the inscription (GENDARMERIE ROYALE) is an obvious allusion to a possible French origin. However, a number of members have noted the Oriental motif (Chrysanthemum) on the cast brass elements, not typically in the Japanese style, leading to an alternative view that this may be a Chinese creation of the mid- to late-20th C.

Several examples of similar swords have been culled from the web to indicate that it is not a unique specimen. Different hilt styles are observed, with some examples being of poorer quality than the topic of this thread.

We are referring the sword to the European Armoury Forum for an opinion as to whether it has French origins or is a Chinese fantasy or knock off.

Ian

Will M 18th May 2020 01:16 AM

A definite fantasy sword most likely Chinese made. So many details and main parts inaccurately portrayed. I don't know where to start, the lettering is amateurish, the quality very low and nothing points to the sword as being from any pattern.The "patina" alone points to a chemical wash. Many sand casting flaws and non descript designs. Few swords are found with their leather blade washers and fantasy swords typically have poor quality leather washers as these do.
One auction describes the sword as:
"French Gendarmerie Royale Sword with brass two bar and dish back hilt. Decorated floral back strap. Complete with its steel scabbard with decorative brass ring mounts. Steel blade with remains of ?GENDARMERIE ROYALE? wording."
When one struggles to describe such swords, the above description is what you get. Auctioneers stay clear of describing these as authentic swords. Some auctioneers will tell you low bid start price tells bidders the item is a copy/fake.

kronckew 18th May 2020 04:59 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Also: The abrupt 'point' looks very fake Chinesey. As does the blade lettering. They are fairly well known for fairly good chemical 'aging'. Bit too uniform tho.

I'd expect a better cartouche, font, and gold lettering like this Gendarmarie Royale du Canada (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) Junior Officers sword: (not mine)

clockwork 19th May 2020 08:12 AM

Thank you all for the help.

Evgeny_K 21st May 2020 01:44 PM

without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword
fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked

kronckew 21st May 2020 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword
fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked


Yup, it at least appears to have no fake unit, armoury, acceptance or mfg. stamps.

asomotif 23rd May 2020 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword
fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked


This sword is not an exsisting pattern sword, so in that respect you are right, and it is not a fake.
It does however pretend to be old by the aging of the metal.

I did not check all the sold items but I will be surprised if one of them was offered as "modern crafted souvernir sword".

The few that I found were all offered pretending to be something old and rare :
- WWII gilted GENDARMERIE ROYALE SWORD sharp blade saber
- GENDARMERIE ROYALE SWORD WWII SINO-JAPANESE WAR
- WW2 period French Gendarmerie Royale sword & scabbard
- Vintage Gendarmerie Royale Sword-RARE
- Japan Occupied China WWII police sword
- 18th Century WW2 Japanese Sword Asian Antique Old Iron Knife Carving w/ Mark

Best regards,


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