Dating a matchlock & a wheellock
 

I recently was lucky enough to get hold of a couple of muskets for my collection - the two first ones on the picture. Literature on weapons used before 1750 in the Danish/Norwegian army is almost non-existing, but as these are German models I would guess somebody here knows a lot more about them than I ever will.

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/...psf2c3ae3b.jpg

Also wishing everybody here a Merry X-mas and a prosperous New Year.

Trond

Hi Trond,


Your query exactly meets my field of competency. Thus I must say right at the start that the wheellock gun is not a musket but obviously a carbine or the barrel and forestock have been drastically shortened as the shape of the butt is extremely unusual for a carbine.

Although I do need to see more close-ups of both guns, the rough dating is the same for both the heavy matchlock musket and the wheellock: ca. 1635-45, meaning high time of the Thirty Years War (1618-48).
Both seem to be of Swedish or Danish manufacture and really should have barrel marks; the barrels may have been made in either Suhl/Germany or Jönköping. What makes you think they are German?

Please do post more and good overall views and close-ups as well. And please do not clean the guns, they are in perfectly and virtually 'untouched' optimum original condition, as far as I can see!


I attach a view of the 'younger' section of my collection, showing muskets from ca. 1570-1720, with a close-up of a Suhl wheellock musket of ca. 1640 and a heavy 9 kilo (!) matchlock musket dated 1636, plus a link to my thread
A Matchlock Chronology, ca. 1520-1720: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ock+chronology


Best,
Michael

A Thuringian/Suhl matchlock, ca. 1640, was sold at a surreal price Christie's London, November 9, 2000 (attached), while a fine Suhl matchlock wall piece, dated 1597, illustrated together with the aforementioned, went for almost nothing.
The shape of the bellied buttstock with incised lines is very similar to that on your musket.


m

Many thanks for valuable help. The short one is of course a carbine. Both these guns are marked Suhl, but are close to identical to the ones I believe were used in the Danish/Norwegian army (mainly against the Swedes).

The major part of my gun collection is of Danish/Norwegian long-guns, pistol & swords from the 1700 and 1800's. Here are a couple of pictures of long-guns. There are rubber cast magnets holding them:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8c6bd7e6.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4dc9846b.jpg

If interested, you'll find more about Danish/Norwegian arms at Danish/Norwegian Military Arms

Trond

The carbine is in my opinion way too ususual not to have been cut down from a musket. Does it feature a riding rod (Reitstangl) and a movable saddle ring to the left side?
Even then the stock of the carbine and its forward sections must have been considerably cut down in size, and still they do not match what we expext to see: an average paddle-shaped carbine butt.

I woud be grateful for receiving good images showing the overall length of the matcklock musket which really should measure 156 cm all over, and have a weight of not less than 7-8 kgs. I would also need to see the barrel and lock marks of both guns.


Best,
m

These pictures are hopefully sufficient:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5b8ef879.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/...ps39fcaf8f.jpg

Trond

Like I expected, the bandelier rod and ring are missing, the iron finial seems to be missing from the tip of the ramrod, and this carbine with the rounded paddle-shaped buttstock is much later than I thought, ca. 1670-90, so there is no longer any connection with the Thirty Years War. If I remember it correctly, Sweden even had the last wheellock carbine model out in as late as 1704. The stock might be of fruitwood or walnut, Sweden preferred birch.


As this is my main expertise, it would be great if I could see the carbine SVL marks, as well as those on the barrel and lock of the matchlock musket, and better photos of the latter.

It is the form and style of the makers marks that discern correct dating.

I can make out the backsight but are the foresight on the musket barrel and the forward nasal iron band present? Does the ramrod have its threaded iron finial (Setzerkopf)?
The overall length should be 146 or 152 cm.


The scans are from Heinrich Müller: Das Heerwesen in Brandenburg und Preußen von 1640 bis 1806 - DIE BEWAFFNUNG. Brandenburgisches Verlagshaus, 1991.



m